Low time pilot insuring a retract?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Jim K, Sep 5, 2020.

  1. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Digging deeper on my airplane search, I've seen a couple Lances that would fit my mission. I'd prefer a fixed gear for all the obvious reasons, but Lances seem to be priced at a discount to sixes. Can a low time....in my case 210 tt, IR, 0 retract...... even get insurance on a retract in this market? For that matter can I even insure a six? What is the insurance premium over a fixed gear...2x?

    @NealRomeoGolf how many hours retract time did your insurance company require?

    And yes, I know these are questions for my insurance agent, but it's labor day weekend and I want answers now.
     
  2. LevelWing

    LevelWing Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When I bought my Mooney I had maybe 80 hours total time and I wasn't instrument rated and my insurance was ~$650/year. That was in 2013; insurance rates have gone up a lot since then across the board. But to answer your question, yes you can get insurance. They may require a check out or a certain number of hours in the plane before you can solo, but it's possible. If you aren't complex endorsed yet, you'll need to be.
     
  3. Paul_Havelka

    Paul_Havelka Pre-Flight

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    @Jim K Yes you can get insured with 0 RG time and if you'd like to discuss it further then shoot me a pm and we can talk over the phone. Been seeing about 10-15 hours dual and then an additional 5-10 hours solo to carry passengers.
     
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  4. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

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    WAG? For a six figure hull (what lances seem to be fetching these days) I'd say 2.5-3K, plus some dual received time before they'll cover ya solo, as posted by the previous posters. Subsequent years it'll come down about a grand from that topline number and hang out there for a while, given where the insurance market is trending this decade. But you'll get insured. C-210, that might be where you can run into issues with some underwriters, but a lance you probably will get someone to bite. Good luck.
     
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  5. Paul_Havelka

    Paul_Havelka Pre-Flight

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    For reference, I just got a policy for a gentleman that has a ppl only and 60tt with 0 rg a policy on a T182RG with a hull value of $165,000, liability at 1,000,000/100,000 and the premium was $4,960 (Hull $4,062 and the liability was $928). Insurance required him to get 10 hours dual before he solo'd and then 5 hours solo before carrying passengers. Your biggest benefit would be to get your IR if you don't already have it.
     
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  6. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

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    They required 3 hours of dual with an instructor that had 1000 total, 100 retract and 25 PA32R-300 time. I then had to do 15 additional hours (either with CFI or solo) before I could carry passengers.
     
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  7. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    I did it in 2017 with seemingly not much extra for retract, but insurance rates have gone up drastically since then. Good news is that if you fly a bunch in the first year without a gear up, it will be less expensive the next year.

    Make sure you get some instruction on handling the T tail. It might add something to the rate itself.
     
  8. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    If the price of insurance is a big concern, you need to find a different hobby.
     
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  9. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

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    I had no problem getting or affording insurance when I bought my Arrow. They wanted 5 hours dual and 5 hours solo before carrying passengers. I had about 50 hours total time, 0 hours complex, and used the plane to get my instrument rating after I bought it. You should be fine.
     
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  10. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Excellent data points, thank you all. Not as big a deal as I had thought apparently.

    For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
     
  11. Jumpmaster

    Jumpmaster Line Up and Wait

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    Luke 14:28-30. It almost applied to me when building my current house. By the time we were out of the ground, I was a $150K over budget. Yessir, thought it was a mighty fine looking basement and nearly left it that way. My neighbors have for almost 20 years.
     
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  12. simtech

    simtech En-Route

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    Back in November I bought a Bonanza. I had 0 complex time, an IR, 450TT, $80k hull and my premium was $2200. I was only required 2 hours dual then I was a free bird. Almost 75 hours later im due for renewal, I hope it doesnt go up but ill be surprised if it doesn't.
     
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  13. Ghery

    Ghery Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Back about 18 years ago the club's insurance required a minimum of 100 hrs TT and 10 hours dual in make/model to solo the club's Arrow. By pure accident I hit 100 hrs TT and 10 hours dual in the Arrow at the same time. I don't think I could plan it that well. And, it doesn't really matter as the club sold the Arrow a while back, so all we have now are fixed gear Cessnas.
     
  14. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Last year I sold my share in a A36 to a new pilot with 100hrs and no IR. It wasn't cheap but the requirements for the transition training from insurance were quite reasonable. This was with AVEMCO.
     
  15. jimhorner

    jimhorner Line Up and Wait

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    When I bought my Super Viking in 2012, I had 256 tt, no IR, no retract time, and only 140 of those hours were recent. The rest occured 23 years previously because of a long break from flying. The Super Viking was my first plane purchase.

    My insurance company required I get signed off by a CFI having 100+ hours of experience in the type, and my rates weren’t bad at all. I flew with him a grand total of maybe 4 hours in the plane before he signed me off. Getting the IR lowered them quite a bit. Getting the Commercial had little effect.

    So, at least 8 years ago, it was possible for a low time pilot to get a decent insurance rate on a complex 300 HP plane.

    I worked with https://bwifly.com/aviation-insurance/airplane-insurance/; very helpful group.
     
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  16. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It’s gonna be $4,000-6,000/yr until you get a few hundred hours of retract time. Doesn’t much matter the retract model.

    insurance has gotten ridiculous. Mine is pushing $2k with no claims and almost 1,000 hrs of retract time.
     
  17. jimhorner

    jimhorner Line Up and Wait

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    What hull value? My rate was $1800 for a hull value of $125K, low time and no retract time. That was 8 years ago. It’s gone up a bit since then due to, I assume, Inflation, but it’s nowhere near $4-6K.
     
  18. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yup....but those days are gone. I have a similar hull value.

    Rates today are ridiculous.
     
  19. coach

    coach Pre-Flight

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    When I bought my 210 I had about 500 hrs, instrument, 0 retract. No problem getting insurance but I thought it was high. They told me that it would come down with time, but it only went up. :(
     
  20. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    If you don't have an answer yet, I was quoted $2200 in Jan for 0 retract, 220 hours, no IFR. Hull value was 50k.

    IFR will lower that, as will getting over 250 hours. Vague memory, once you're over 25 hours retract, there is another bump down, but that might just be bad memory.
     
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  21. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

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    At that hull value, just go ground not-in-motion only, until you get whatever trigger your broker tells ya gets you down from low earth orbit. 4.4% of hull, for an airframe value that doesn't even survive a prop-struck gear collapse claim, is for the birds. Hangar/FBO-line rash in my experience is much more likely to happen, which is why I advocate for a ground non-in-motion niche over liability-only. Otherwise, go fixed gear on the 50k venture if you can't afford to lose the capex nut on an inflight coverage basis.
     
  22. Roadracin

    Roadracin Pre-Flight

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    Newer cirrus SR22T. 100ish hrs, no IR yet. They want 16-18k
     
  23. Paul_Havelka

    Paul_Havelka Pre-Flight

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  24. Roadracin

    Roadracin Pre-Flight

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    Hull value is nearly 7 figures so that seems to be the contributing factor. They said it could drop ~40% after a year with more time in type and my IR so that’s a plus... I guess lol.
     
  25. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    FWIW if anyone cares...
    I had my agent get quotes for two similar aircraft...an early 70's Cherokee Six and an early Lance, both with hull values at $150K.
    They shopped it to 7 companies, only two were willing to quote it. Ironically one of the companies that passed insures our club, so they're insuring me now...

    First quote was 3300 for the Six and 5000 for the Lance
    They wanted 2 hours dual for the Six, 3 hours for the Lance
    5 hours PIC to carry passengers for the Six, 15 for the Lance.
    This was for 1,000,000/occurrence and $100,000/occupant. 2MM/250K only adds ~$300/year, which really surprised me.

    The other was 4000 for the Six and 5000 for the Lance.
    They require 10 hours dual for the Six and 20 for the Lance.

    Higher than I expected, but that seems to be the way things are right now. Probably won't end up with that high of a hull value in reality, so that should help. I thought the delta between fixed and retract would be higher.
     
  26. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

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    I got a quote for a twin this month. It was eye-watering to say the least. My broker explained that there was only one carrier remotely interested in covering a transitioning pilot so the second year would probably have some competition and much better rates. But the price of admission to find out is pretty tough. It sounds like something similar is going on for your upgrade to higher performance, with just two companies willing to give it a shot. :(
     
  27. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Are you guys shopping your own insurance or using a broker?

    I was just trying to get a quote. Emailed and called AVEMCO, couldn’t get an email/call back.

    Any recommended brokers?
     
  28. jimhorner

    jimhorner Line Up and Wait

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    I use a broker.

    Bill White Insurance has always treated me really well. They shopped around and got me a good deal on my Bellanca Super Viking, and they requote with different insurers every year to get the best deal. Give them a call.

    https://bwifly.com/aircraft-insurance/
     
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  29. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    I contacted the agent who I have all of my house, farm and vehicles with. Their agency has a relationship with a broker in Indianapolis called Arlington Roe. They have a website and i think they cover a wide area if not nationwide. I was a bit surprised because I recognized that name from the cover of the club's insurance proposal. They then get quotes from a bunch of insurers, so you're paying at least 2 middle men lol. If I was doing it for real I'd get with AVEMCO and a couple others I've heard of, but this seemed like a good way to get me at least in the ballpark.
     
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  30. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Mike Busch tells the story that when he bought his 310, he couldn't get insurance...and that was like 30 years ago. Apparently he went the first year with only liability, and by year 2 had enough hours to get full coverage. The club has played with the idea of a twin so guys can get their multi, but I don't think there's enough interest to justify it. A 7 seat Seneca would fit my mission....
     
  31. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    - I believe Avemco is the only company that sells directly to the consumer. All the others use the broker system.
    - There is no need to involve your regular insurance broker that does all your other insurance stuff. Aviation insurance is not something they would sell.
    - For the most part, the brokers shop the same group of 10-12 insurers. A broker may not submit you to all of them because he knows that 'Megalocorp doesn't take anyone without IR in a cirrus'. So as they all shop the same set of companies, you are not going to see much of a difference in premiums (the companies may not quote the same N number through multiple brokers so you would have to sequentially appoint the different brokers with a form letter before those companies would quote your plane twice)
     
  32. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

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    You basically got the same as me, except we could only get 1 person to quote. You have an IFR rating which probably got you a second company.

    I use Bill White like mentioned above.
     
  33. jimhorner

    jimhorner Line Up and Wait

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    A couple of years ago I had my eye on a Turbo 310 R. Price was right, it had the features and avionics I was looking for, so I called up my insurance broker (Bill White) just to see what the insurance would be. He found me a really good rate. I have 0 multi-engine time, but lots of complex time, IR, and commercial. The rate for a hull value of $150K was something on the order of $1,800 a year. Not bad. A twin turbo with known ice seemed like a great thing to have out here in the mountainous West with a son who seems likely to decide to live in the Northeast once he finishes school, right?

    My wife nixed the whole idea. Said the 310 was ugly, and she likes our current plane. Oh well. The point is that the rates these days for a 310 aren’t all that bad.
     
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  34. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My insurance company required five hours of dual. I used that to do a mountain checkout. That, was invaluable.
     
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  35. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

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    @Jim K did they put the dual instruction with an instructor that had time in make and model? My issue has been they require any CFI instructing me to have 1000 total time, 100 retract and 25 in a PA32R-300. That last part greatly limits my CFI pool.
     
  36. jimhorner

    jimhorner Line Up and Wait

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    Have you shopped around for different companies? When I bought my Bellanca, one company wanted 25 hours of dual with an instructor having 100+ hours in a Bellanca. Another company just wanted me to get checked out by a qualified instructor. Quotes were very similar in price with the second company’s a bit lower. Having a good broker who shops around can help a lot. I had 0 hours of complex when I bought my plane. No retract time at all.
     
  37. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

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    I use the same broker as you.
     
  38. jimhorner

    jimhorner Line Up and Wait

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    Ummm. Well, eh, ah, this is awkward. Bummer? Sorry, that’s all I got. Guess things have changed in the past 8 years.
     
  39. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Yes, both quotes required 25 hours in that specific model and 1000 pic, both for the Six and the Lance.
     
  40. AlphaMike

    AlphaMike Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I would recommend USAIG I have similar hours and they were by far the cheapest for my 182.
    212-952-0100