Low cost IFR training and currency training device/simulator

MarkH

MarkH

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MarkH
I am considering purchasing a simulator for IFR training and maintaining IFR currency. But I am having trouble finding information about the market. My research leaves as many questions as I started with. The three big ones are:

Can an FAA approved BTD be upgraded and still maintain approval? For example, if I buy an XPlane 10 based sim, and upgrade the PC hardware and software to run XPlane 11 well, is it still approved?

If I log a simulator approach to maintain currency, can I log the time toward the 50 hours of sim time without a CFI present?

What is the lowest cost BTD option on the market right now?
 
Have you looked at Advisory Circular 61-136A (available at www.faa.gov)? All FAA approvals have been cancelled.

Bob Gardner
 
So if the FAA approvals for BATD devices are cancelled, yet you can still log approaches for currency on BATD, can we now log them on any simulator we choose? What does this mean that they have cancelled this?
 
MarkH said:
I have, but it is dated before approaches could be logged for currency and it is explicitly labeled as canceled as of 09/2018.
Link for those following along: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...fm/go/document.information/documentID/1026387
Click to expand...

Your link is for AC 61-136A which has been cancelled and replaced with AC 61-136B (if I am reading it correctly)
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_61-136B.pdf

Here is another link that I believe will answer your questions about allowable hours. It is FAA document 2013-31094 https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-for-the-use-of-faa-approved-training-devices

I have been looking into this myself, since I have an AATD simulator that I am considering FAA approval of the device. I am not yet certain because I just started looking into it, but this is what I believe I understand: In order to log time in a BATD or AATD, the device must have a LOA from FAA. The conditions of the LOA must be complied with exactly, or else it is voided. So your question about updating, unless it is specifically allowed in the LOA, it would void it. As an example, the Redbird TD2 simulator has been issued a LOA to the manufacturer. The customer who purchases the Redbird will get a LOA from Redbird good for 5 years (provided you comply with their instructions). If you read FAA doc 2013-31094, I think it explains pretty well what hours can be applied toward ratings and currency.
 
bobmrg said:
Have you looked at Advisory Circular 61-136A (available at www.faa.gov)? All FAA approvals have been cancelled.
Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

This is from AC 61-136b

9.2 Previous Authorizations Not Issued by the General Aviation and Commercial Division or That Do Not Contain an Expiration Date. All approvals for ground trainers, simulators (except for FFS Level A–D and FTD Levels 4–7), FTDs Level 1–3, personal computer-based aviation training devices (PCATD), and ATDs with authorizations that were either not issued by the General Aviation and Commercial Division, or do not contain an expiration date, terminated on December 31, 2015 as described in Federal Register (FR) Docket No. FAA-2013-0809, Notice of Policy Change for the Use of FAA Approved Training Devices. A manufacturer or operator may submit an application letter as described in this AC in pursuit of a new LOA. See Appendix A, paragraph A.5, Previously Approved Devices, for additional information.

It is my understanding that LOAs have been cancelled on devices that did not have a termination date. Manufacturers or operators of these devices may still apply for a new LOA.
 
lsaway said:
As an example, the Redbird TD2 simulator has been issued a LOA to the manufacturer. The customer who purchases the Redbird will get a LOA from Redbird good for 5 years (provided you comply with their instructions). If you read FAA doc 2013-31094, I think it explains pretty well what hours can be applied toward ratings and currency.
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Can you give me the Cliff Notes on that document re: the 5 year LOA for the TD2? Too many words in there for my feeble brain. I bought a used one and Redbird told me the LOA can be downloaded from the their website. Nobody said anything about 5 years. Mine is older.
 
MarkH said:
What is the lowest cost BTD option on the market right now?
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From my research so far, the Redbird TD or TD2 is the lowest cost BATD that has a LOA from the manufacturer.
 
dtuuri said:
Can you give me the Cliff Notes on that document re: the 5 year LOA for the TD2? Too many words in there for my feeble brain. I bought a used one and Redbird told me the LOA can be downloaded from the their website. Nobody said anything about 5 years. Mine is older.
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I just looked up the LOA on the TD and TD2. it says "October 24, 2018, the FAA has approved the Redbird TD and TD2 as Basic Aviation Training Devices. Through 10/31/2023, these Redbird devices are approved for use in satisfying certain sections of parts 61 and 141."

So it looks like the current LOA is valid until 10/31/2023 as long as you are in strict compliance with the terms. Here is a link to the LOA . Read it and comply with it and imo, you should be good. You need to have a copy of this LOA with the device. I am not an expert on this, so its up to you confirm with the FAA and Redbird to make sure.
 
You could also look at the the flythissim BATD listed at $5400. LOA is attached. Have been some questions about Customer support. Could also look for something used if you’re willing to risk it.

https://www.flythissim.com/
 

Attachments

  • Simavio FlyThisSim TouchTrainer Airplane BATD signed LOA (03-30-2016).pdf
    293.1 KB · Views: 9
MarkH said:
I am considering purchasing a simulator for IFR training and maintaining IFR currency. But I am having trouble finding information about the market. My research leaves as many questions as I started with. The three big ones are:

Can an FAA approved BTD be upgraded and still maintain approval? For example, if I buy an XPlane 10 based sim, and upgrade the PC hardware and software to run XPlane 11 well, is it still approved?

If I log a simulator approach to maintain currency, can I log the time toward the 50 hours of sim time without a CFI present?

What is the lowest cost BTD option on the market right now?
Click to expand...

If one has an instrument certificate, one can use an FAA approved simulator to maintain currency WITHOUT an instructor present. If one requires instrument training (or IPC, etc), then an instructor is required to log it as instrument training.

•14 CFR § 61.51
•Paragraph (g)(4) "A person may use time in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate or rating provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.”
•Beginning 7/27/2018, the revised paragraph (g)(4) removes "instrument currency" as an item requiring instructor observation.
•Paragraph (g)(5) "A person may use time in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for satisfying instrument recency experience requirements provided a logbook or training record is maintained to specify the training device, time, and the content."
•Beginning 7/27/2018, the revised paragraph (g)(5) allows “Instrument currency” to be completed without instructor requirement. ATDs are approved by letter of authorization from AFS-800 to satisfy § 61.51(g)(5).
 
I did more digging into the regs. It seems that in addition to the LOA, a QAG is also required in order to log the time to meet experience or training requirements. I looked on Redbirds site, and I did not find the QAG documents. You should contact them and ask about it.

AC 61-136b states:

A.2.4 Qualification and Approval Guide (QAG). The QAG is a detailed description of the simulated aircraft systems, design criteria, and functionality for a BATD or AATD trainer.
A.4.9 As noted in the contingencies of the LOA, an ATD may not be used for training and experience unless the LOA and QAG accompany the trainer and are accessible for viewing. It is acceptable for these documents to be available electronically.

Redbirds LOA for the TD2 also states:
(2) Only the aircraft make/model and configurations that are in the approved QAG can be utilized. A copy of the FAA approved QAG detailing the approved makes, models, and configurations must be provided to the operator and be readily available when the BATD is in use.
 
I have a Redbird TD and the QAG (45 pages) plus the LOA pdf’s are loaded on the TD’s computer. I looked at all the Sims out there and went with Redbird because I did part of my IR training on a Redbird FMX so was familiar with their G1000 panel. flythissim was just too risky based upon my research and I couldn’t contact anyone and all the other sims were out of my price range. As far as upgrades, I believe to stay legal the company has to do that.
 
I have a much more powerful computer, larger screen and better yoke, throttle quadrant and rudders than red bird or fly this sim. Would either of them be willing to sell me a discounted program with LOA certification that would allow me to log IFR experience for currency?
 
I'm sure they'd be willing to sell you whatever you want. However, since you're using some of your own equipment, you'd have to get your setup certified by the FAA to legally use it to log IFR currency approaches (see AC 61-136). Each of their setups has its own FAA LOA that is specific to that setup. Any modification not included in the LOA likely nullifies the LOA.
 
I doubt very much they would sell you anything but a complete system. But as mentioned above it’s theoretically possible to buy a copy of P3D and roll your own system but IMO jumping through the certification hurdles wouldn’t be worth the effort.
 
lsaway said:
I did more digging into the regs. It seems that in addition to the LOA, a QAG is also required in order to log the time to meet experience or training requirements. I looked on Redbirds site, and I did not find the QAG documents. You should contact them and ask about it.

AC 61-136b states:

A.2.4 Qualification and Approval Guide (QAG). The QAG is a detailed description of the simulated aircraft systems, design criteria, and functionality for a BATD or AATD trainer.
A.4.9 As noted in the contingencies of the LOA, an ATD may not be used for training and experience unless the LOA and QAG accompany the trainer and are accessible for viewing. It is acceptable for these documents to be available electronically.

Redbirds LOA for the TD2 also states:
(2) Only the aircraft make/model and configurations that are in the approved QAG can be utilized. A copy of the FAA approved QAG detailing the approved makes, models, and configurations must be provided to the operator and be readily available when the BATD is in use.
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Thank you for the information. I'll give Redbird a call about the QAG.
 
So for those in the know, what is the least expensive approved system out there for sale?
 
BrianNC said:
So for those in the know, what is the least expensive approved system out there for sale?
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On paper it’s Flythissim. However I’m not sure if they are actually viable — google them and draw your own conclusions. So the next option on the price ladder is the Redbird TD.
 
tsts4 said:
as I posted above the QAG comes with the system— it’s not on the website.
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I saw your post, but you have a newer one than I. Mine's a 2011 and I haven't had time to "fly" it yet. Do you know if it will be on my computer too?
 
dtuuri said:
I saw your post, but you have a newer one than I. Mine's a 2011 and I haven't had time to "fly" it yet. Do you know if it will be on my computer too?
Click to expand...

It should be along with the old LOA, but if you can't find it I'm sure Redbird will shoot you a copy.
 
tsts4 said:
On paper it’s Flythissim. However I’m not sure if they are actually viable — google them and draw your own conclusions. So the next option on the price ladder is the Redbird TD.
Click to expand...

Wow. The base price of entry isn’t cheap is it?
 
noahfong said:
Huh? Would you care to explain what you mean?
Click to expand...

Document 2013-31094 FAA Approved Training Devices states
"After January 1, 2015, all LOAs previously issued prior to August 23, 2013, for training devices approved to meet requirements under parts 61 and 141 will terminate."

What it means is that TD manufactures or operators had to apply for a new LOA if their device meets current standards. If they were not granted a new LOA, these older devices can not be used for logging hours. So using your Redbird TD2 built in 2011 as an example, Redbird received a new LOA for the TD2 & most recent LOA dated Oct 24, 2018 extended the LOA for another 60 months. This current LOA applies to all TD2s (including your 2011 unit) as long as it is operated in accordance with the current LOA instructions & conditions since the Older TD2 is essentially the same as a brand new one. Redbird, or a Redbird Operator will have to renew the LOA in 2023 for another 5 years if the devices will be used for logging hours after the termination date.
 
If experienced gaining FAA approval, please consider helping w BATD OAG.

I have two FAA documents, both dated 12Sep2018, AC 61-136B and Vol 11 Flight Standards Programs Chapter 10 ATD.

CFII w 3 students, 3-years USAF Certified IFT instructor (T-37B). XP 11.3 alive w a joystick. Considering what yoke, etc to buy.

Will you please consider helping me write a "bullet proof" OAG?
 
Hi folks, I have a FlyThisSim TouchTrainer that I purchased in 2018 and it's fantastic. Getting it though took 4 months. There have been horror stories about people waiting over a year or not getting their money back. I find it simply the best FAA certified Sim that I've ever used and highly recommend it. The only way that I would purchase one however, is to escrow the funds until the product is received. If FlyThisSim wouldn't entertain that, I'd purchase from another sim company.
 
Paul T. said:
Hi folks, I have a FlyThisSim TouchTrainer that I purchased in 2018 and it's fantastic. Getting it though took 4 months. There have been horror stories about people waiting over a year or not getting their money back. I find it simply the best FAA certified Sim that I've ever used and highly recommend it. The only way that I would purchase one however, is to escrow the funds until the product is received. If FlyThisSim wouldn't entertain that, I'd purchase from another sim company.
Click to expand...
Apparently FlyThisSim is out of business. (according to the @MooneyDriver78 link). The web site isn't working. And then there is this:
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...thissim-customers-complain-of-delivery-delays
Northwest Flyers, a 70-member club in Columbus, Ohio, is one of many FlyThisSim customers who claim the company has fallen many months behind its promised delivery dates and has been largely unresponsive to phone calls, emails, and letters. The club paid $13,000 for a simulator in January 2019.

“We finally had to get the Ohio Attorney General involved,” said Demetri Capetanopoulos, vice president of Northwest Flyers. “The company has failed to perform, it’s strung us along for months and months, and it needs to be exposed. The company is taking orders and cashing checks, and the aviation community should be warned about it.”


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Redbirds website has a locator. There is a full-motion Redbird not too far from me that rents for $20/hr.
 
I own a TD2 that I use for instrument currency. I have the G1000 package, and the best feature is the ability to easily simulate GPS, ADC, and AHRS failures. The cost is not cheap, but the added proficiency gained from flying approaches in conditions that would not be normally flown with multiple system failures seems really valuable. If the actual conditions are not good for flying, I log some hours on the sim instead. The company is great to work with and set up was just a matter of plugging all of the components in and turning it on. My only minor complaint is that it still runs FSX. I’m hoping it can be upgraded in the future.
 
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