Tampico Trauma
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Mauled Formerly known as Tampico Trauma
Lost my confidence :(
- Thread starter CC268
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Aztec Flyer
Timbeck2
Final Approach
CC268 - great thread, one of the best I've read on this forum. I have 211 hours in my Cherokee 140 and every time I go up I worry about the same things you do. First, I just want you to know that you're definitely not alone. I'm not going to offer any advice on what to do to get over your loss of confidence but I will say that I too, will do some of the things that more experienced pilots in this thread have mentioned. My flying partner and CFII has left Tucson and is now flying for Boutique Air out of Minneapolis. I felt safer flying with him and learned something on every flight we took together, many of which were long after I got my PPL. There will come a time when you look back (probably have already) and realize that what you were concerned or even scared about wasn't as big a deal as you thought it was at the time. Mine were flying at night, mountainous terrain and flying in the bumpy weather we have so much of in the summer. I still give the mountains a LOT of respect especially when there is a little wind but flying at night has actually been more enjoyable than during the day. (Get yourself a good LED light for your Cherokee if you haven't already. That incandescent light it came with is NOT adequate)
I flew down to Port Aransas, TX this time last year (with my CFII buddy) and at one time the bumps became more of an annoyance rather than fear inducing after I finally realized that my wings were not going to fall off. Also on this flight, we had the field wire come off the alternator without noticing it and drained the battery causing more than a little concern. (Separate story that I'll tell you in person when we meet one day since we're not that far apart.) You're already a step ahead of me based on your location about flying around class B airspace. I've flown into Chandler a few times, Falcon Field a couple of times and Williams a couple of times. I have a friend who flies the F35 at Luke AFB and I need to learn the procedures and fly into Glendale to visit him, and without my CFII buddy around, I'm not yet completely confident I can pull it off without making some controller in Phoenix angry. But that is really all I'm worried about. I'm pretty confident I can fly from point A to point B but Glendale can get congested pretty easily and seems to be harder to fly into than the other airports I've mentioned.
In closing I will say again that you are not alone in your thoughts about your flying confidence. You almost always have an "out" when it comes to flying; such as into situations involving weather/IMC (make a 180 and land somewhere else to wait it out) or crosswinds that are out of your personal limits. (go around and land somewhere else) I will also say that as others in this thread have said, the more you fly, the more that your feeling of being unconfident starts to fade away. It will not completely go away - ever, and I think that is a good thing. Don't ever get complacent, complacency kills.
I flew down to Port Aransas, TX this time last year (with my CFII buddy) and at one time the bumps became more of an annoyance rather than fear inducing after I finally realized that my wings were not going to fall off. Also on this flight, we had the field wire come off the alternator without noticing it and drained the battery causing more than a little concern. (Separate story that I'll tell you in person when we meet one day since we're not that far apart.) You're already a step ahead of me based on your location about flying around class B airspace. I've flown into Chandler a few times, Falcon Field a couple of times and Williams a couple of times. I have a friend who flies the F35 at Luke AFB and I need to learn the procedures and fly into Glendale to visit him, and without my CFII buddy around, I'm not yet completely confident I can pull it off without making some controller in Phoenix angry. But that is really all I'm worried about. I'm pretty confident I can fly from point A to point B but Glendale can get congested pretty easily and seems to be harder to fly into than the other airports I've mentioned.
In closing I will say again that you are not alone in your thoughts about your flying confidence. You almost always have an "out" when it comes to flying; such as into situations involving weather/IMC (make a 180 and land somewhere else to wait it out) or crosswinds that are out of your personal limits. (go around and land somewhere else) I will also say that as others in this thread have said, the more you fly, the more that your feeling of being unconfident starts to fade away. It will not completely go away - ever, and I think that is a good thing. Don't ever get complacent, complacency kills.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Is this the guy who was on TV a year or so ago training wanna be bush pilots? Man he had some winners training if it is.
CC268
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CC268
That's cool...Pleasant Valley is a dirt strip 25 mins from me...I grew up racing moto at Canyon MX just down the hill from there.
I would love to have a Maule or some plane like that but that's more my dads decision. My dad bought our Cherokee...I just pay him $300 a month and pay for my fuel...so I'm pretty lucky to have what I have. Better than no plane.
Maybe some day when I am making the big bucks I can buy a nicer plane.
Thanks for all the replies I plan to respond to them all later!
denverpilot
Tied Down
Nobody mentioned that the glider add on means that every takeoff is an emergency engine-out before the aircraft even starts moving. 
Doing a little gliding will give a better feel for how to plan and deal with not having an engine, which also leads to knowing a whole lot better when an engine loss in powered aircraft will be most crucial, and when it just means you'd best have a landing spot in mind.
Engine out risk can always be managed but not fully removed. Gliding makes you practice it every flight.
Doing a little gliding will give a better feel for how to plan and deal with not having an engine, which also leads to knowing a whole lot better when an engine loss in powered aircraft will be most crucial, and when it just means you'd best have a landing spot in mind.
Engine out risk can always be managed but not fully removed. Gliding makes you practice it every flight.
jspilot
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jspilot
To be honest, I'd just go ahead and sell the plane you bought with your dad right now because I just don't see you ever really flying. While it's great that you want more knowledge, to me, it reads like you are just prolonging the inevitable which is, eventually you have to take command of an aircraft by yourself and fly it. Only you know if you truly have the skills to do that. If you don't, then please do yourself a favor and get out now as anyone who is telling you that you are doing the right thing by not flying for over a month as a new pilot and then sinking more money into additional training, to me is just feeding you a line that, while maybe easier to take and more supportive than I may sound, is just feeding into your paranoia by suggesting that somehow more knowledge will help prevent the risks associated with flying.
To be a pilot you have to have confidence in yourself and also to be ok with risks associated with flying. If you are not ok with the risks than no amount of training or anything will matter. CFI's crash planes too so I just think you are living in a bubble believing that having a CFI on board will matter at all. When your number is up, it's up!
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WannFly
Final Approach
RotorDude
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Completely disagree.
I have thousands of hours in airplanes, helicopters and gliders (combined, mostly airplanes), and I still can't say "I have confidence in myself", which I believe equates to complacency. I still worry each and every time I take off in any aircraft for any kind of flight that I'll crash and burn (well maybe not burn in gliders
), one way or another, or at least have a dire emergency and have to deal with it.Having a CFI on board for an inexperienced pilot is extremely useful, not just for immediate safety, but for future safety, i.e. risk reduction, so it does matter, a lot.
And any pilot going around thinking "when your number is up, it's up" is an accident in the making. The most important aspect of flight safety and risk management is that you, as PIC, can mitigate your risks drastically, starting with training, maintenance, pre-flight planning, inspection, adherence to checklists, proper judgment, etc. IOW, your flying can be essentially as safe as you want it to be.
MAKG1
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Nobody mentioned that the glider add on means that every takeoff is an emergency engine-out before the aircraft even starts moving.
Doing a little gliding will give a better feel for how to plan and deal with not having an engine, which also leads to knowing a whole lot better when an engine loss in powered aircraft will be most crucial, and when it just means you'd best have a landing spot in mind.
Engine out risk can always be managed but not fully removed. Gliding makes you practice it every flight.
Every flight is an emergency? Hell no.
Every landing is power off. It's routine, therefore not an emergency.
There is a lot of benefit to gliding, such as really understanding adverse yaw and maneuvering flight right at the edge of the envelope. But that doesn't address the underlying issue AND it creates yet another currency to keep up to date. Now, you have to have three takeoffs and landings in 90 days in both airplanes and gliders -- it has to be in the same category and class. Proficiency requires even more.
CC268
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CC268
Na my dad enjoys flying it...he flys the plane a lot.
SoCalPilot88
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Don’t be dissuaded away from flying by those who proclaim good pilots must never feel self-doubt. Some of the least capable people I’ve met exude tremendous self-confidence. It’s called the Dunning-Kruger effect. If the NTSB had the ability to perform a personality assessment of the pilots involved in accidents I bet it would show a direct relationship between confidence and accidents.
Maintain focus on training, and gathering more experience and your self-doubt will be tempered by a reasonable level of confidence.
Maintain focus on training, and gathering more experience and your self-doubt will be tempered by a reasonable level of confidence.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Easy. Ha. It's just a way to explain it to power pilots afraid of power off stuff. Heh.
George Mohr
Line Up and Wait
My opinion is that nervousness about a scenario reflects your lack of confidence in that specific scenario. If you worry about engine out situations, practice them until you feel like you can nail any spot on the ground. If it is about mid-air collisions, establish a great visual scan and include ADS-B on a tablet in that scan. Practice what your mind is telling you that you need more capability in. I bet this will work for you, and in the end if it doesn't, you can walk away from flying knowing that you gave it your best effort. We (most of us) do this for fun, and if it isn't fun it isn't worth it.
jspilot
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jspilot
Completely disagree.
I have thousands of hours in airplanes, helicopters and gliders (combined, mostly airplanes), and I still can't say "I have confidence in myself", which I believe equates to complacency. I still worry each and every time I take off in any aircraft for any kind of flight that I'll crash and burn (well maybe not burn in gliders
Having a CFI on board for an inexperienced pilot is extremely useful, not just for immediate safety, but for future safety, i.e. risk reduction, so it does matter, a lot.
And any pilot going around thinking "when your number is up, it's up" is an accident in the making. The most important aspect of flight safety and risk management is that you, as PIC, can mitigate your risks drastically, starting with training, maintenance, pre-flight planning, inspection, adherence to checklists, proper judgment, etc. IOW, your flying can be essentially as safe as you want it to be.
The OP is not talking about a healthy respect for flying. Any pilot should have that and I'm not saying to just take an apathetic approach of "it's just a matter of time before we all die so why mitigate the risk?" Simply put, at 67 hours, I could not wait to get up in the air and fly. I took every opportunity I had to fly and learn new things and slowly and steadily expand my comfort envelope. The OP in his original post, displayed a reluctance to fly( he owns a plane and has not flown in a month) a hesitation to assume risks at all( a fear of a very remote possibility of an engine failure on takeoff) and a consistent attitude that something bad could happen. The truth is, if every pilot took this same approach we would have no pilots flying ever and everyone would just be living in a bubble. Life requires that we assume some risk. Flying requires that we assume more risk. However, if a person is adverse to assuming any risk, than flying--because it requires you to assume more risk-- is not an activity to be encouraged for said person. Furthermore, to lead that person to believe that additional training is somehow going to combat a total risk averse attitude is just providing false hope.
If we all look back at our early days of flying, we know that we assumed risks that we would be foolish to assume. The very thought that any of us is capable of knowing how to prevent all risks associated with flying is to somehow assume the pilot is a super human. We all went forward in flying knowing that good decision making, increasing our experience slowly and all that makes us the pilots we are today. At 67 hours, the OP does not even know enough to know how scared he really should be, and yet he seems totally afraid of flying. Give it a few more hours when something actually does go wrong on a flight, he actually gets into a tough spot on a flight, get's chased by bad weather, has a close encounter with another plane etc....if he's scared now, just wait and see!
I hope I'm wrong and the OP flies for many years and enjoys it. I just think I can see the writing on the wall here and I'd hate for the guy to sink in thousands of dollars for additional training just to then say that he needs additional training and never fly's on his own.
exncsurfer
Pattern Altitude
I think the bush training is a great idea. Getting some good experience landing 'out' would benefit anyone I would think.
exncsurfer
Pattern Altitude
I don't think you can assume as much from a forum post. Bad advise to sell the airplane with such limited info.
RotorDude
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Again I disagree. I think it's very useful to assume that there will be an engine failure on each and every takeoff, and conversely assuming that it is "a very remote possibility" will over time divorce it from your mind and lead to complacency.
If you do want to fly safely for many years and thousands of hours, one of your main threats is complacency. The best tool to fight that is fear, to the point that you never "conquer" it, nor should you want to. That residual fear, coloring your every take off and every flight, even the most mundane and routine, should be your best safety tool when properly used.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Always have a engine out plan then you won't be surprised when it actually does happen! Same thing with the go around. I always brief an ILS like I'm not going to see the runway and I'm going around. It's not a fear, its planning for the worst.
RotorDude
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GliderDude
I would agree that it's not fear alone. But fear, esp. for the GA pilot flying (typically) alone and outside the structured airline environment, can act as the "engine" to keep you alert and non-complacent, which will drive you to always plan for contingencies (and ideally have more than one plan, like B and C and D).
Brad Z
Final Approach
I didn't see it anywhere else in this thread, but if your Cherokee 140 only has a lap belt, upgrade the seat belts to 3 or 4 point harnesses. It is one of the less expensive safety upgrades you can do. There are quite a few accidents that claimed lives that were otherwise survivable if it weren't for the trauma hat resulted from the head and upper body slamming into the control yoke and panel.
Also understand that the best way to survive an engine out is to fly it all of the way to the ground...in the clear or in the clouds, day or night, over fields or over terrain...doesn't matter. There are plenty of successful "tree landings" because the pilot didn't give up on the aircraft and flew the plane all of the way down. Pulling the controls back because the trees are getting bigger and causing the plane to stall is almost certainly fatal. It's not natural but that's why we train.
Also understand that the best way to survive an engine out is to fly it all of the way to the ground...in the clear or in the clouds, day or night, over fields or over terrain...doesn't matter. There are plenty of successful "tree landings" because the pilot didn't give up on the aircraft and flew the plane all of the way down. Pulling the controls back because the trees are getting bigger and causing the plane to stall is almost certainly fatal. It's not natural but that's why we train.
CC268
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CC268
It actually does have harnesses which is nice...although they aren't the most comfortable because they are attached at a single point and rub your neck a lot. But better than nothing
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Velocity173
Yeah but I still wouldn't call that a fear. If one fears something, that's generally a distress or worry. When I go flying for work or play, I have the same mindset as driving my car. There's no apprehension involved. Obviously the preparation is more in depth but I don't have fear prior to engaging in flight.
There's no point in stressing the rare "what ifs" either. If the mast separates from the transmission (AH-64 crash) it's out of my hands. If there's a flight control malfunction like the one that took the life of a fellow flight school friend of mine, it's out of my hands. Even some engine outs, I can't guarantee we'll survive. We had a helicopter CRM vid last year on engine outs where they found most crews don't think about it while flying and therefore are unprepared. Well I do think about engine outs while flying but there are plenty of times I can't tell my crew SPECIFICALLY where we're going with it. 75 % of my flying is either over dense forest or urban areas. You can train all you want for canned auto scenarios to runways but real world, the options are limited. Plenty of times where an off field landing is going to flat out suck, especially at night. We're going to eat trees or cement and whether we end up with minor injuries or serious ones has a lot to do with luck. We'd like to believe in CRM that everything can be avoided by either good planning or crew actions in an emergency but I've seen plenty of accidents where the cards were just stacked too high against the pilot.
So, there's a fear of the unknown vs a healthy respect for the unknown. We all have our own RA process in what believe to be acceptable risks. For me the risk of the unknown is acceptable based on 1) the slim odds of it happening and 2) my ability to overcome it. For the OP, I would hope that the training he's signed up for will change his worry, into a healthy appreciation of the risks.
RotorDude
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GliderDude
Seems like you were focusing on helicopters, so I'll have to admit that flying the single engine teetering rotor jobs that I normally fly, I have yet to become complacent. There is just too much stuff that can go wrong and kill you in a matter of seconds (e.g. mast bumping) if you make the wrong split-second decision (or so it seems at my low level of experience). Unlike airplanes and gliders which are much more lenient and allow you much more time to think and plan.
jspilot
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jspilot
Thank you for posting this as it perfectly makes the point I was trying to make from the start that I got piled on for. No amount of training can cure flying from being risky and to think otherwise is just an attempt to find comfort in a total untruth.
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Velocity173
Yep, they can sneak up and bite you in the a$$ in a heartbeat if you're not careful. The one big advantage though, even with their poor "glide" ratio, you can set them down on a dime in the event of engine failure. I'd much rather go through the trees at around 0-10kts vs 50-60kts in my airplanes.
TylerSC
Pre-takeoff checklist
I have the same plane and seatbelt arrangement - got some sheepskin seat belt covers from Amazon and they are a big help.
Flying is a very perishable skill. It is a very different environment from everyday life. When in doubt, go up with an instructor. I recently couldn't fly for over a month, and was pretty nervous on landing the first couple times, even with him right there with me.
WannFly
Final Approach
To the OP.
i have developed a system that i call "the new normal". its specifically designed to train my brain to believe that what i am doing is normal even though it thinks its not.a week back i was up in traffic pattern and it was turbulent, there was so much going on and just didnt think i can control the plane and had to cut that flight short. simply put, i was too scared of the turbulence. i had a week to think about it and realized something, its the perceived fear thats taking over me, its my brain flooding me with fear emotion to keep me safe. i appreciate that immensely. so i developed this thing that helped me immensely yesterday.
we were out on 2 back to back sessions, total of 3.8 hrs. on the second session, CFI turned the PFD off and the only instruments i had at my disposal was the backup ones. i was flying way better than i normally do trying to catch up the numbers of G1000. then he introduced to simulated moderate turbulence, shoving the yoke forward and backward very rapidly, then bank left and right extremely rapidly and then full rudder left and right. it was damn scary and uncomfortable. but i also noticed that it was perfectly safe... so i took over control, and started doing that, slowly at first and then very rapidly and after some time i started enjoying it, loved it actually and kept doing it. it became my new normal, i told my brain, its perfectly safe doing it and my brain agreed. i was having the best flight i ever had until my CFI told me to stop because he was getting nauseous
.
then as i settled in, he pulled the throttle to idle and told me to find a place to land. first engine out procedure, didnt bother me at all, because of the exercise i did before, i knew if a gust of wind banks me to the left, i have complete control over it with my yoke. there i was dodging the clouds and finding a place to land.... also realized the plane flies much smoother with the engine idle
while coming back, took 360 and 720 degree turns with 30-35 degree bank (big deal for me), there were some turbulence, didnt bug me anymore. my brain knew it was the new normal.
i guess it might or might not work for you because everyone is different, but thought will share my experience. ultimately, i had to dig deep inside me and had to find out how to overcome whatever was holding me back from what i want to do. may be try more crosswinds with your CFI at the right seat until crosswinds becomes your new normal.
Best
i have developed a system that i call "the new normal". its specifically designed to train my brain to believe that what i am doing is normal even though it thinks its not.a week back i was up in traffic pattern and it was turbulent, there was so much going on and just didnt think i can control the plane and had to cut that flight short. simply put, i was too scared of the turbulence. i had a week to think about it and realized something, its the perceived fear thats taking over me, its my brain flooding me with fear emotion to keep me safe. i appreciate that immensely. so i developed this thing that helped me immensely yesterday.
we were out on 2 back to back sessions, total of 3.8 hrs. on the second session, CFI turned the PFD off and the only instruments i had at my disposal was the backup ones. i was flying way better than i normally do trying to catch up the numbers of G1000. then he introduced to simulated moderate turbulence, shoving the yoke forward and backward very rapidly, then bank left and right extremely rapidly and then full rudder left and right. it was damn scary and uncomfortable. but i also noticed that it was perfectly safe... so i took over control, and started doing that, slowly at first and then very rapidly and after some time i started enjoying it, loved it actually and kept doing it. it became my new normal, i told my brain, its perfectly safe doing it and my brain agreed. i was having the best flight i ever had until my CFI told me to stop because he was getting nauseous
.then as i settled in, he pulled the throttle to idle and told me to find a place to land. first engine out procedure, didnt bother me at all, because of the exercise i did before, i knew if a gust of wind banks me to the left, i have complete control over it with my yoke. there i was dodging the clouds and finding a place to land.... also realized the plane flies much smoother with the engine idle
while coming back, took 360 and 720 degree turns with 30-35 degree bank (big deal for me), there were some turbulence, didnt bug me anymore. my brain knew it was the new normal.
i guess it might or might not work for you because everyone is different, but thought will share my experience. ultimately, i had to dig deep inside me and had to find out how to overcome whatever was holding me back from what i want to do. may be try more crosswinds with your CFI at the right seat until crosswinds becomes your new normal.
Best
denverpilot
Tied Down
Sounds like your CFI is figuring out ways to acclimatize you to the stuff you feel uncomfortable about. Bravo.
I don't know the specs on a 140 by my 56 172 landed around 40 MPH and was easy to stop in 600'. How many places where you fly are there where you couldn't safely put it down with whatever the equivalent is in your plane? The engine can quit and if it does it means you need to land, not that you'll fall out of the sky.
If you avoid flying into IMC, running out of gas, or hitting a mountain, power line, or something else that doesn't just jump up at you, your usually going to be able to land safely if you focus on flying the plane until you stop. If you don't worry about possible dings in the plane as long as you land without injury the chances go up even more.
I commend you on your decision to take advanced airmanship training. It definitely can't hurt.
Gary
If you avoid flying into IMC, running out of gas, or hitting a mountain, power line, or something else that doesn't just jump up at you, your usually going to be able to land safely if you focus on flying the plane until you stop. If you don't worry about possible dings in the plane as long as you land without injury the chances go up even more.
I commend you on your decision to take advanced airmanship training. It definitely can't hurt.
Gary
Skywalker
Cleared for Takeoff
I read tons of accidents reports. Most have one thing in common: the accident happened due to pilot error (flight into IMC as VFR only pilots, running out of fuel, or similar). Those are accidents that could be avoided through weather briefing or just check your fuel capacity. We have also cancelled flights because we didn't feel like flying that day. That's fine too. I rarely fly all by myself and I am usually not looking forward to flying solo. I do it never the less - it makes me appreciate my co-pilot more.
If you haven't flown in a while, there is nothing wrong with flying with a CFI or other pilot to have another set of eyes on what you are doing. You learn something new from everyone you are flying with.
Bottom line will be that you have to find a way that suits your learning style and personality to keep up flying and feel confident about it. There is nothing wrong by questioning yourself or your abilities - it will keep you on your toes.
If you haven't flown in a while, there is nothing wrong with flying with a CFI or other pilot to have another set of eyes on what you are doing. You learn something new from everyone you are flying with.
Bottom line will be that you have to find a way that suits your learning style and personality to keep up flying and feel confident about it. There is nothing wrong by questioning yourself or your abilities - it will keep you on your toes.
danhagan
En-Route
1. Have your engine out plan formulated before takeoff, home field or not.
2. Plan you're en-route phase for land-able areas, don't just GPS direct the flight.
I've only had about 15 minutes of flight out of 700 hours that I was over areas that were not conducive to landing, with most of those on the flight to Catalina island from Fullerton; otherwise, I am usually near something that the plane might not make it, but I sure will.
My buddy flies his RV pretty much direct and jokes with my flying style when he's with me ... I tell him we'll land just fine AND not have a 30 mile hike to civilization or a road doing it.
2. Plan you're en-route phase for land-able areas, don't just GPS direct the flight.
I've only had about 15 minutes of flight out of 700 hours that I was over areas that were not conducive to landing, with most of those on the flight to Catalina island from Fullerton; otherwise, I am usually near something that the plane might not make it, but I sure will.
My buddy flies his RV pretty much direct and jokes with my flying style when he's with me ... I tell him we'll land just fine AND not have a 30 mile hike to civilization or a road doing it.