Lost it On Crosswind Landing Today

[Unregistered]

I was practicing crosswind landings today in a low wing aircraft when I lost it on rollout. I didn't hold in the aileron after I got the mains down, which allowed the wind to pick up the upwind (left) wing and banked the airplane hard to the right. The left main came off the pavement but the right main stayed down and the plane pivoted hard around this point. The right wingtip came dangerously (within a foot or less) to dragging on the wingtip but I was able to correct with aileron and got it back into ground effect. At this point I gave it full power and got the hell out.

I'm feeling a bit guilty for having come so close to causing damage to the airplane. I can definitely say I took a quantum leap in piloting ability; I truly recognize the importance of keeping the aileron correction in throughout the rollout. I violated a fundamental part of flying that I drill into my students which is to not stop flying the airplane through the rollout.

Lesson learned: Do not center the aileron after mains are down and keep the back pressure in to bleed off speed during a crosswind landing.

 

[jesse]

Live and learn. What were the winds by chance?

Just a thought...but...It sounds to me like you're probably landing too fast, with too much energy, if the wind were able to pickup a wing so easily once the mains were down. Land slow enough, in most nosewheels, it'll take a crazy amount of wind to lift a wing on you.

As you mentioned, the ailerons into the wind will definitely help, as will the above touching down with less energy.

 

[James331]

Hurt anyone? Nope
Bent any metal? Nope
Break any regs? Nope
Break any Co. rules? Nope
Pi$$ anyone off? Nope


Move along, nothing to see here

 

[Henning]

I was practicing crosswind landings today in a low wing aircraft when I lost it on rollout. I didn't hold in the aileron after I got the mains down, which allowed the wind to pick up the upwind (left) wing and banked the airplane hard to the right. The left main came off the pavement but the right main stayed down and the plane pivoted hard around this point. The right wingtip came dangerously (within a foot or less) to dragging on the wingtip but I was able to correct with aileron and got it back into ground effect. At this point I gave it full power and got the hell out.

I'm feeling a bit guilty for having come so close to causing damage to the airplane. I can definitely say I took a quantum leap in piloting ability; I truly recognize the importance of keeping the aileron correction in throughout the rollout. I violated a fundamental part of flying that I drill into my students which is to not stop flying the airplane through the rollout.

Lesson learned: Do not center the aileron after mains are down and keep the back pressure in to bleed off speed during a crosswind landing.

This is an error I will bet good odds on that you never repeat. That's why we practice a lot, it takes a while before you make enough mistakes. At least you kept control of it and corrected your error without bending metal. I haven't always been so lucky. Learn from it, keep on flying, drop the guilt and worry. No real reason not to sign your name. I signed my name to my gear up. Nothing here to be particularly ashamed of, we're humans, we make errors, it comes with the job. We just do our best to keep from getting other people hurt when they happen, heck, you didn't even bend metal unless you squeezed so hard you curled the seat frame.

Always steer "Up Into The Wind and down away from the wind", all the way to the tie down. It's just a habit for me even if the wind isn't strong.

 

[Datadriver]

Hurt anyone? Nope
Bent any metal? Nope
Break any regs? Nope
Break any Co. rules? Nope
Pi$$ anyone off? Nope


Move along, nothing to see here

Lesson learned, and more evidence that experience is the best teacher

 

[Pilawt]

Tailwheel airplanes teach a rule that in tri-gear aircraft is easy to forget, but no less important: Keep flying it, all the way to the chocks.

But it sounds like you did well in quickly recognizing and salvaging the situation. Good on you.

 

[Unregistered]

This is an error I will bet good odds on that you never repeat. That's why we practice a lot, it takes a while before you make enough mistakes. At least you kept control of it and corrected your error without bending metal. I haven't always been so lucky. Learn from it, keep on flying, drop the guilt and worry. No real reason not to sign your name. I signed my name to my gear up. Nothing here to be particularly ashamed of, we're humans, we make errors, it comes with the job. We just do our best to keep from getting other people hurt when they happen, heck, you didn't even bend metal unless you squeezed so hard you curled the seat frame.

Always steer "Up Into The Wind and down away from the wind", all the way to the tie down. It's just a habit for me even if the wind isn't strong.

Thanks Henning, I appreciate that. I would also like to think I won't be making this mistake again.

Winds were 270 @ 15 gusting to 20 landing on runway 30, so about a 10kt crosswind component. It really isn't much but the aircraft is less than 1050lbs including myself and fuel so it does feel the wind a bit.

 

[Henning]

Thanks Henning, I appreciate that. I would also like to think I won't be making this mistake again.

Winds were 270 @ 15 gusting to 20 landing on runway 30, so about a 10kt crosswind component. It really isn't much but the aircraft is less than 1050lbs including myself and fuel so it does feel the wind a bit.

Oh yeah, you are by no means the first to whom this has occured, it takes surprisingly little. Sometimes if you let it get away in a strong wind, you may need throttle to get it back.

 

[frfly172]

A good lesson learned.glad you and the airplane are good.

 

[rbridges]

Lesson learned, and more evidence that experience is the best teacher

I had a similar experience during instrument training. Got sloppy and let the yoke relax after the mains touched. Gust of wind lifted the plane and it started to bank to the right. Luckily my CFII grabbed the yoke and flew it back down. Bottom line, I learned a valuable lesson that I haven't forgotten since.

 

[jordane93]

Glad you learned something! In crosswind landings, the landing isn't over when you touchdown. You still have to maintain your aileron correction

 

[Henning]

I had a similar experience during instrument training. Got sloppy and let the yoke relax after the mains touched. Gust of wind lifted the plane and it started to bank to the right. Luckily my CFII grabbed the yoke and flew it back down. Bottom line, I learned a valuable lesson that I haven't forgotten since.

The DPE who gave me my IR checkride took the landing, (and bounced it three times ) "Nothing in the PTS says you have to land it." I asked him about it later and he said that he didn't start doing it until he got caught up in exactly your type of situation, hood is off, ride is over, stress is releasing and you relax, and that's when it bites you (also involved in my gear up), only the results didn't come out as good as yours and a runway light got clipped and it turned into a hassle, so now he just takes the landings since he's going to take the crap if they go wrong.

 

[kmacht]

I read your post and thought "that could have been me". I considered going flying yesterday after work and would have had those same exact conditions (15 gusting to 20 with a 10 knot or so cross wind, in a taildragger that weighs less than 1100lbs). I decided not to try it as it has been a while since I have tried any decent crosswind landings. Thanks for sharing. It drove home the point of being on the ground wanting to be up there vs being in the air wanting to be on the ground. The desire to go flying yesterday was strong but after reading your post it makes me feel better that I didn't make the wrong decision.

Keith

 

[Alexb2000]

I landed a 172 one time in a pretty good 25 knot cross one time and did the same thing. One of the mains got picked up and I found myself careening toward the ditch. I was so surprised and in shock that my reaction was slow, but I eventually found the rudder and got it under control while still on pavement. The tower says, "that was close". I wanted to say, "No S", but I didn't. Best part of it, just like you I have NEVER forgot to keep the aileron into the wind to this day.

Gives me a chuckle thinking about it, I hope you can feel the same way. It's part of the flying experience and you have to learn to love it.

 

[Clip4]

The DPE who gave me my IR checkride took the landing, (and bounced it three times ) "Nothing in the PTS says you have to land it." I asked him about it later and he said that he didn't start doing it until he got caught up in exactly your type of situation, hood is off, ride is over, stress is releasing and you relax, and that's when it bites you (also involved in my gear up), only the results didn't come out as good as yours and a runway light got clipped and it turned into a hassle, so now he just takes the landings since he's going to take the crap if they go wrong.

You should re-read the instrument PTS.

 

[Henning]

You should re-read the instrument PTS.

Is it the same as 1992? I'm not going to look.

 

[azure]

The DPE who gave me my IR checkride took the landing, (and bounced it three times ) "Nothing in the PTS says you have to land it." I asked him about it later and he said that he didn't start doing it until he got caught up in exactly your type of situation, hood is off, ride is over, stress is releasing and you relax, and that's when it bites you (also involved in my gear up), only the results didn't come out as good as yours and a runway light got clipped and it turned into a hassle, so now he just takes the landings since he's going to take the crap if they go wrong.

Just curious, why did the DPE land the plane? This sort of thing is exactly why, when my IR DPE "threatened" to take control and land us at KFNT (because of a "safety of flight" issue that existed entirely in his mind), I was all the more determined to mollify him somehow, even if it took BS to do it. Unless someone has a lot of time in make and model, I trust myself to land my airplane before I'll trust someone else.

To the OP: your occurrence sounds a bit like what happened to me a couple of months after I bought my airplane. Landing at home base as a storm was approaching, I was landing on 27, holding in a strong left correction when suddenly a gust of wind kicked in out of the NW as I touched down. I went sliding toward the edge of the runway, side loading the mains big time. Luckily I stopped a few inches short of hitting one of the edge lights. My mechanic inspected the undercarriage and fortunately found no damage.

 

[Henning]

Just curious, why did the DPE land the plane? This sort of thing is exactly why, when my IR DPE "threatened" to take control and land us at KFNT (because of a "safety of flight" issue that existed entirely in his mind), I was all the more determined to mollify him somehow, even if it took BS to do it. Unless someone has a lot of time in make and model, I trust myself to land my airplane before I'll trust someone else.

To the OP: your occurrence sounds a bit like what happened to me a couple of months after I bought my airplane. Landing at home base as a storm was approaching, I was landing on 27, holding in a strong left correction when suddenly a gust of wind kicked in out of the NW as I touched down. I went sliding toward the edge of the runway, side loading the mains big time. Luckily I stopped a few inches short of hitting one of the edge lights. My mechanic inspected the undercarriage and fortunately found no damage.

Because I had just completed an intense ride in a plane with a single KX-170b and an ADF and just completed a partial panel VOR approach into LGB in actual and the runway was right where it was supposed to be. Since he told me that if I elected to finish the ride rather than do the approach in VFR tomorrow, "if we came out the bottom right side up with the runway somewhere in front of us," I would pass, I went for it.

When we broke out and the runway was there, he said "Congradulations, Steve taught you well, you can relax now, I've got the landing, nothing in the PTS says you have to land the plane." Then he bounced it three times and I laughed. He grinned at me, "What are you laughing at, I haven't signed your ticket yet!" "Not laughing at you, laughing at the fact that you can't land this plane either, neither Steve or I had a decent landing all week."

 

[poadeleted20]

Lesson learned: Do not center the aileron after mains are down and keep the back pressure in to bleed off speed during a crosswind landing.

You got it -- fly it all the way to the chocks. Be glad this lesson came at no more price than a bit of adrenaline and maybe some stained shorts. :wink2:

 

[Fearless Tower]

Just a thought...but...It sounds to me like you're probably landing too fast, with too much energy, if the wind were able to pickup a wing so easily once the mains were down. Land slow enough, in most nosewheels, it'll take a crazy amount of wind to lift a wing on you.

Why do you assume that, Jesse?

The only time I have experienced the wind picking up a wing like the OP described was doing a 3-point, pretty much full stall landing on pavement in the Waco with a 5-7 kt x-wind.

 

[AerialGhost]

I had something happen similar to me as well on the return leg to my homebase on my solo cross country. The winds were 15 gusting 20 but they were pretty much straight down the runway and were forcasted to stay that way, so off I went on my cross country. At the two destination airports the winds were strong, but down the runway so uneventful landings there.

My homebase is a satellite to Addison Airport in the Dallas area, and traffic was busy, and there was a cirrus coming into my homebase so I had yet to get a word in to Addison to transition me, and the cirrus and tower were chatting non stop about an un-identified airplane [me] approaching the airspace. I was getting frustrated that they wouldn't stop talking long enough to let me announce my self, so coming into the landing I was already frustrated and a little frazzled.

When I got back to my homebase which is an Airpark so pretty small runway, the winds had of course shifted to about a 30 degree cross at 18 gusting 21. Tiredness, complacency, and the frustration caused me to relax on the yolk, and when I got the first main down the wind dragged me from left to right on the runway very close to the edge, and I firmly came down on the left rudder pedal and dropped the left wing causing the nose wheel and other main to slam hard onto the runway. I felt pretty embarrassed and was upset with myself for letting that happen.

Looking back on it I should have handled the radio situation with Addison better, and I should not have let complacency take over. Definitely a flight full of learning.

 

[taters]

all it takes is a bad gust with your hand momentarily off the yoke and bad ***** can happen...I have had this ( a wing try and lift ) happen in a bonanza on the ramp.

 

[jesse]

Why do you assume that, Jesse?

The only time I have experienced the wind picking up a wing like the OP described was doing a 3-point, pretty much full stall landing on pavement in the Waco with a 5-7 kt x-wind.

Certainly can happen regardless but basically the faster you're going when the wheels touch down the more the wings are supporting the plane and the less the mains. With more lift coming from the wings the easier it is for wind to roll you. The more weight on the mains, the harder it is for the wind to roll you.

Always been a theory of mine, that most of these loss of control during landing are primarily caused by too much energy.

One day I wanted to play with this theory so took the Flybaby up. My FlyBaby was under 900 lbs with fuel and me in it and I played with touching the mains down with various energy levels in a 20 knot direct crosswind with additional gusts. The more airspeed I had when the mains touched the more the gusts wanted to lift a wing and the more terrifying the experience was. I was by far better off two three point in a stall then I was to do a wheel landing. Either way, in that wind, in that airplane it's a rather exciting experience. You're really hoping to **** your Tailwheel is locked in when it touches. If it failed to be I don't think a ground loop would be avoidable. I inspect my tailwheel A LOT.

As a result this is why I teach my students full flaps and landing at minimum energy regardless of the wind.

Ultimately the ailerons need to transition fully into the wind at whatever rate is permitted without rolling the plane into the wind. Less energy helps as well.

 

[whifferdill]

I was by far better off to three point in a stall then I was to do a wheel landing. Either way, in that wind, in that airplane it's a rather exciting experience.

The Fly Baby must behave differently from the Clipped Cub I used to fly. I could never really "3-point" it in direct x-wind in the honest 20K+ range without it skidding sideways downwind across the runway due to it being so light on its feet in the 3-point rollout attitude right after touchdown. In 20K+ x-wind, I had to wheel land it and bring the tail down at a speed such that by the time it was rolling 3-point, it would be slow enough for there to be enough weight on the tires to keep it from hopping and skidding sideways across the pavement. I say this as someone who much prefers 3-pointers unless there is a compelling reason to do a wheelie.

 

[jesse]

The Fly Baby must behave differently from the Clipped Cub I used to fly. I could never really "3-point" it in direct x-wind in the honest 20K+ range without it skidding sideways downwind across the runway due to it being so light on its feet in the 3-point rollout attitude right after touchdown. In 20K+ x-wind, I had to wheel land it and bring the tail down at a speed such that by the time it was rolling 3-point, it would be slow enough for there to be enough weight on the tires to keep it from hopping and skidding sideways across the pavement.

Seems like some Flybaby guys prefer the wheel landing. I sure don't though. I'm sure all of them fly a bit different since they're "built to fit" and all vary quite a bit. Plus the wing rigging can vary quite a bit between airplanes.

If the wind is really kicking I usually approach the runway from the downwind side of the runway and land at an angle into the wind. Of course you have to get things sorted out before you go off the runway on the other side..but with a wide enough runway it works pretty well.

I'll also really "plant it" onto the runway. I'm not going for smooth. I'm going for the wings to be as close to "all done flying" when the wheels hit the pavement.

Ultimately though winds like that are no fun at all to be landing a Flybaby in. One day I was flying a 700 mile cross country and at my second fuel stop about three hundred miles in the wind was absolutely howling with a 30 knot direct crosswind gusting to about 38. I looked at my iPad and surrounding airports, runways available, and wind reports and didn't have the fuel to make it anywhere that would be any better (45 min remaining). When that happens I start getting creative...taxiways..ramps..anything to get into the wind. I found a chunk of grass on the parameter of the airport that was long enough and would put me right into the wind. I probably only needed about 50 ft of grass given the wind.

Had there not been space on the airport for me to make it work my plan B was to find a nice farmers field into the wind, put it down there, tie it down in the field, and setup my tent next to it until the wind got better

 

[Henning]

I had something happen similar to me as well on the return leg to my homebase on my solo cross country. The winds were 15 gusting 20 but they were pretty much straight down the runway and were forcasted to stay that way, so off I went on my cross country. At the two destination airports the winds were strong, but down the runway so uneventful landings there.

My homebase is a satellite to Addison Airport in the Dallas area, and traffic was busy, and there was a cirrus coming into my homebase so I had yet to get a word in to Addison to transition me, and the cirrus and tower were chatting non stop about an un-identified airplane [me] approaching the airspace. I was getting frustrated that they wouldn't stop talking long enough to let me announce my self, so coming into the landing I was already frustrated and a little frazzled.

When I got back to my homebase which is an Airpark so pretty small runway, the winds had of course shifted to about a 30 degree cross at 18 gusting 21. Tiredness, complacency, and the frustration caused me to relax on the yolk, and when I got the first main down the wind dragged me from left to right on the runway very close to the edge, and I firmly came down on the left rudder pedal and dropped the left wing causing the nose wheel and other main to slam hard onto the runway. I felt pretty embarrassed and was upset with myself for letting that happen.

Looking back on it I should have handled the radio situation with Addison better, and I should not have let complacency take over. Definitely a flight full of learning.

Let me clue you in on something, if you have gusting winds, in the northern hemisphere, the higher speed gust will be about 15° to the left of the lower steady state wind. This was interesting to get used to in Australia where it reverses.

 

[MAKG1]

Let me clue you in on something, if you have gusting winds, in the northern hemisphere, the higher speed gust will be about 15° to the left of the lower steady state wind. This was interesting to get used to in Australia where it reverses.

I find it very hard to believe that this will apply for all types of gusty winds.

Maybe for a front passage, but we can get gusts from the terrain, too.

And if it's due to a convection cell, it might matter where you are in relation to the cell.

 

[Henning]

I find it very hard to believe that this will apply for all types of gusty winds.

Maybe for a front passage, but we can get gusts from the terrain, too.

And if it's due to a convection cell, it might matter where you are in relation to the cell.

It does, it can't be prevented, it's part of how the Coriolis effect operates. All winds travel a curved path, and the arc changes with speed.

 

[MAKG1]

It does, it can't be prevented, it's part of how the Coriolis effect operates. All winds travel a curved path, and the arc changes with speed.

Coriolis is a function of scale. It's much more pronounced on big stuff than on small scale stuff like thermals and mechanical turbulence. So, I don't buy 15 deg on everything. Only if your mountains and your weather systems are the same size (and they aren't close).