Loose lips sink ships

alfadog

alfadog

Final Approach
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alfadog
And airport transitions to boot.

So soon after I took up flying again in Feb 2010, I called the Miami TRACON to get some pointers on dealing with the Class Bravo. The controller that spoke to me turned out to be a pilot also and we hit it off a bit. After going through the standard spiel about how they will not clear VFR traffic through the Class Bravo he said that he would tell me something that they do not make widely known. He said ask approach for the Red Road Transition and, traffic permitting, they would bring me right over the center of KMIA at 2500', VFR. So I tried it and got a nice view of the airport. Next time I tried was quite some time later and I was told "unable". I assumed it was because of traffic but today I got the rest of the story.

Today, after well over a year, I went to the general meeting of the sailing club I joined not long after restarting my flying. I took one course there on the Flying Scot and sailed the club Scots a half dozen times or so then never made it back. Never went and did the "new member" thing at the meeting so I figured I would do it today.

I arrived early and over a burger and a beer started talking to the gal sitting next to me. Told her I had not been here much since joining because I was spending time and money flying. "What do you fly?" Very knowledgable and, long short, turned out she was a controller at the Miami TRACON/KMIA tower (they rotate). "So", sez I, "how do I get the Red Road Transition?" "You don't, not anymore." Seems this was never an "official" transition (whatever that means) but was something they put together for police, news, traffic, etc. Well, they got a green controller in that also happened to be a student pilot or some such down at my home drome, KTMB. This was not the controller I spoke to, I got the clear impression from him that this was on the down low. Anyway, seems that as soon as this new guy found out about the transition he could not wait to tell all his buddies, and they told their buddies, and the TRACON went from maybe one request per day to twenty of them. End of transitions, at least for the lowly public. :mad:

Found the below on the net. This is the transition. Note Cessna wheel.

backstagesex-MIAMI-int-+132.jpg
 
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It would seem like 90 degrees to the in use runway crossing the middle of the field would be one of the least conflict ways to go through the middle of class B and would be routine.
 
Graueradler said:
It would seem like 90 degrees to the in use runway crossing the middle of the field would be one of the least conflict ways to go through the middle of class B and would be routine.
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Absolutely. It is one of the best places where airplanes aren't. KTPA Bravo has a similar VFR corridor, "Bridge", that is easier to get. Apparently it was closed for a bit also (see link). I have done the Bridge corridor and have some video of it but never processed the video. This was in a club 172 and my 12-year-old son flew the corridor and did a damn nice job of holding heading and altitiude.

http://www.eaa.org/news/2006/2006-10-19_atc.asp
 
I've heard that when flying the Hudson River, you can ask Lagardia tower for a transition over Central Park due east over the airport, letting you fly along the north side of Long Island. I've never done it though, and in fact, have never gotten a transition through New York Airspace. The last time I tried, they wouldn't even acknowledge me until I was at 7500 feet and over their airspace. Of course I had given up by then and returned the favor when they tried calling me.

I wonder if we end up paying $100 per flight, will we (VFR Pilots) have any more "rights" to controlled airspace?
 
Steve Foley said:
I've heard that when flying the Hudson River, you can ask Lagardia tower for a transition over Central Park due east over the airport, letting you fly along the north side of Long Island.
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Get yourself a NYC Helicopter Route Chart, which I have scanned and attached the relevant portion. Sorry it is sideways....

While in the Hudson Corridor ask for the Central Park route to the
Throggs Route Eastbound. It is perfectly OK to fly the Helo Routes with a fixed wing airplane, but you do need Bravo clearance to do this (the Hudson Corridor can be done without Bravo clearance if you fly under 1300 feet), and you do need to make clear your route out of, as well as into the Bravo. Obviously in a fixed wing hovering while ATC sorts out a route for you is not an option.

Before Cory Lidle made this difficult, I had a standard sightseeing route for my first time passengers. Obtain Bravo clearance to fly the Throggs route westbound, transition to the East River Route southbound, descend into the VFR exclusion, fly past Midtown, over the bridges, past the Statue of Liberty, make a U turn prior to the VZ Bridge, then north in the Hudson river. Spectacular scenery!

-Skip
 

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A couple of years ago I was returning from Marathon (KMTH) to Orlando and since I followed the overseas highway I called Miami approach and asked to transit south to north at 5500. They granted it and routed me through-all VFR.

I was busy and didn't get any pictures, but it's an impressive looking airport.

John
 
jsstevens said:
A couple of years ago I was returning from Marathon (KMTH) to Orlando and since I followed the overseas highway I called Miami approach and asked to transit south to north at 5500. They granted it and routed me through-all VFR.

I was busy and didn't get any pictures, but it's an impressive looking airport.

John
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How high did they have you over KMIA?
 
This is weird to me, the only Class B I hang out around is KSEA and I usually just get "cleared direct xxx" while on FF, I have heard them tell VFR traffic to basically quit calling, they're too busy but I was already on with them and they just cleared me right through. When I fly around KMEM, I've never even tried to enter, just hang out under the shelf until I get clear of it.
 
I find it interesting as well because I get cleared through whenever I ask. :dunno:
 
Henning said:
I find it interesting as well because I get cleared through whenever I ask. :dunno:
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You have specifically asked for and received the Red Road Transition recently? Not talking about being cleared through Bravo on the way to, say, KFXE. Talking about the Red Road Transition.
 
alfadog said:
You have specifically asked for and received the Red Road Transition recently? Not talking about being cleared through Bravo on the way to, say, KFXE. Talking about the Red Road Transition.
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No no, I never heard of Red Route, I'd just be flying out of Boca with a client taking her to Ocean Reef Club and I'd just ask for clearance through at 2000' and typically they'd give me basically the same thing, a perpendicular crossing asking me for either mid field or the departure numbers. Same when I lived in Key West and would come up (even in a twin I take the highway). I never realized it was a big deal.
 
bartmc said:
This is weird to me, the only Class B I hang out around is KSEA and I usually just get "cleared direct xxx" while on FF, I have heard them tell VFR traffic to basically quit calling, they're too busy but I was already on with them and they just cleared me right through. When I fly around KMEM, I've never even tried to enter, just hang out under the shelf until I get clear of it.
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I imagine that a lot depends on where your desired track takes you in relation to the central Bravo airport. If you are not going directly over then it is of less concern. Looking at the Seattle TAC, I see two VFR corridors over KSEA, depending on the runway in use; the Mariner or the Seahawk. Ever used either?
 
Henning said:
No no, I never heard of Red Route, I'd just be flying out of Boca with a client taking her to Ocean Reef Club and I'd just ask for clearance through at 2000' and typically they'd give me basically the same thing, a perpendicular crossing asking me for either mid field or the departure numbers. Same when I lived in Key West and would come up (even in a twin I take the highway). I never realized it was a big deal.
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When was the last time you got that 2000' feet over KMIA? My guess is it went away about a year ago. My guess is that at first it was not a big deal, then was something they did not advertise but would still accommodate, then went away from overuse.
 
Henning said:
snip
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BTW, Henning. I think I will take the Arrow up to KFXE for b'fast tomorrow. If you are going to be around, come by and say hi.

edit: and I am going to ask for the transition. :D
 
alfadog said:
I imagine that a lot depends on where your desired track takes you in relation to the central Bravo airport. If you are not going directly over then it is of less concern. Looking at the Seattle TAC, I see two VFR corridors over KSEA, depending on the runway in use; the Mariner or the Seahawk. Ever used either?
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Typically, I'm just clipping the eastern edge of it as I clear the cascades then turn north, it really wouldn't be a big deal drop altitude and go under the shelf to turn north to my typical destinations, but after crossing the cascades and already having the altitude, if you stay up high enough, you really don't even have to worry about VFR traffic at that alt as much as being under the shelf mixing it up with everybody else, so I like to hang on to my altitude, especially since I'm about to fly over very cold water for the next 100NM. They've always let me slice through, and they let me cut through the western side of it too when heading south for Portland at 2,500'
 
alfadog said:
You have specifically asked for and received the Red Road Transition recently? Not talking about being cleared through Bravo on the way to, say, KFXE. Talking about the Red Road Transition.
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IIRC.... Red Road is 57th ave... that is about exactly mid field for MIA. Correct?

Leguene Rd is 42 ave on the east side and Milam Dairy Rd is 72 ave on the west...:dunno:
 
bartmc said:
Typically, I'm just clipping the eastern edge of it as I clear the cascades then turn north, it really wouldn't be a big deal drop altitude and go under the shelf to turn north to my typical destinations, but after crossing the cascades and already having the altitude, if you stay up high enough, you really don't even have to worry about VFR traffic at that alt as much as being under the shelf mixing it up with everybody else, so I like to hang on to my altitude, especially since I'm about to fly over very cold water for the next 100NM. They've always let me slice through, and they let me cut through the western side of it too when heading south for Portland at 2,500'
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My point exactly re crossing midfield vs. something going on the outskirts.
 
N801BH said:
IIRC.... Red Road is 57th ave... that is about exactly mid field for MIA. Correct?

Leguene Rd is 42 ave on the east side and Milam Dairy Rd is 72 ave on the west...:dunno:
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Yes, sir :D

So that pic was taken out the right window flying south to north with LeJeune along the top of the photo.
 
alfadog said:
Yes, sir :D

So that pic was taken out the right window flying south to north with LeJeune along the top of the photo.
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I feel your pain.......... The safest place for any aircraft around any airport is DIRECTLY overhead..:yesnod::yesnod:..

Unless they launch missles there.:idea::hairraise:
 
alfadog said:
When was the last time you got that 2000' feet over KMIA? My guess is it went away about a year ago. My guess is that at first it was not a big deal, then was something they did not advertise but would still accommodate, then went away from overuse.
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About 3 months ago...:dunno:
 
alfadog said:
They must have know it was you.
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:dunno: Could be I have good ATC karma or something, O'Hare has even let me through. It's very rare that I get denied a B transition when I ask and have even been offered.:dunno: I've always found it odd when people complain about B airspace. If I'm approaching and it sounds busy I'll normally just go under.
 
Henning said:
:dunno: Could be I have good ATC karma or something, O'Hare has even let me through. It's very rare that I get denied a B transition when I ask and have even been offered.:dunno: I've always found it odd when people complain about B airspace. If I'm approaching and it sounds busy I'll normally just go under.
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Careful you don't use up your allotment of that little shoulder-shrugging guy for the next entire month. I think I have about used up all my big grins for the year. :D
 
Steve Foley said:
I've heard that when flying the Hudson River, you can ask Lagardia tower for a transition over Central Park due east over the airport, letting you fly along the north side of Long Island. I've never done it though, and in fact, have never gotten a transition through New York Airspace. The last time I tried, they wouldn't even acknowledge me until I was at 7500 feet and over their airspace. Of course I had given up by then and returned the favor when they tried calling me.

I wonder if we end up paying $100 per flight, will we (VFR Pilots) have any more "rights" to controlled airspace?
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I get to transition over NYC whenever I ask. Must be at 5500 or 6500, though. Usually goes something like this:
Me: New York Approach, Skyhawk 4307R departing Bridgeport direct Wings KLOM three-thousand climbing five-thousand-five-hundred. Request Flight Following. Need Bravo.
Them: November 4307R squawk 1234.... radar contact, cleared into Bravo at five-thousand-five-hundred.
 
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The one time I crossed KSEA VFR (while a student with my CFI in the right seat) they had us cross the approach end of the runway at 1500 MSL. Even less likelihood of a conflict as landing traffic is close to the ground and departing traffic is on the ground. And, as I recall, it was no problem getting the clearance. We asked and they said "go". Maybe that's just KSEA. :D
 
Just like when Mr. D.T. started by calling anybody he could at OKC and then put up numerous posts as to an "ombudsman", this is how no good deed goes unpunished.


Sigh.
 
AuntPeggy said:
I get to transition over NYC whenever I ask. Must be at 5500 or 6500, though. Usually goes something like this:
Me: New York Approach, Skyhawk 4307R departing Bridgeport direct Wings KLOM three-thousand climbing five-thousand-five-hundred. Request Flight Following. Need Bravo.
Them: November 4307R squawk 1234.... radar contact, cleared into Bravo at five-thousand-five-hundred.
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Peggy thats only because NY App knew it was FlyBQ weekend:wink2: Seriously, NY are great controllers to work with!
 
AuntPeggy said:
I get to transition over NYC whenever I ask. Must be at 5500 or 6500, though. Usually goes something like this:
Me: New York Approach, Skyhawk 4307R departing Bridgeport direct Wings KLOM three-thousand climbing five-thousand-five-hundred. Request Flight Following. Need Bravo.
Them: November 4307R squawk 1234.... radar contact, cleared into Bravo at five-thousand-five-hundred.
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I've had similar luck with Boston Approach. There is also a big difference between what you get if your radio work is good and concise versus rambling with no clear indication you can actually fly a heading. I've been denied a bravo clearance once and it was during my primary training with me under the hood. I was tracking the MVY VOR like a drunken sailor and was denied the clearance :)

I'm going to borrow your "need bravo" phrase because that's perfectly concise. Nashua also often enters flight strips for you on the ground if you want flight following and it seems if my route and altitude as shown on the strip will cross into the bravo more than half the time the Boston controllers will give the clearance on handoff to the first controller working a Bravo sector, without being asked.
 
spinfire said:
I've had similar luck with Boston Approach. There is also a big difference between what you get if your radio work is good and concise versus rambling with no clear indication you can actually fly a heading. I've been denied a bravo clearance once and it was during my primary training with me under the hood. I was tracking the MVY VOR like a drunken sailor and was denied the clearance :)

I'm going to borrow your "need bravo" phrase because that's perfectly concise. Nashua also often enters flight strips for you on the ground if you want flight following and it seems if my route and altitude as shown on the strip will cross into the bravo more than half the time the Boston controllers will give the clearance on handoff to the first controller working a Bravo sector, without being asked.
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I truly believe you have hit the nail on the head right there.
 
I have been denied entry into the Little Rock Class C for making the APP controller annoyed. :mad2: I was on a training x/c into KPBF, which is southeast of LIT, and on approach the controller told me to keep the same squawk and contact him leaving Pine Bluff. The Pine Bluff freq is 119.85 while "normal approach" is 119.5.

So about 20 minutes later I tried calling approach on 119.85 and got no reply. I can hear him talking but since 99% of the other traffic is on 119.5 I can't hear the replies. I also noticed it was a different guy on the freq. So after three attempts on establishing contact he came back saying " Can't you hear that I am busy, stay out of my airspace and contact Memphis if you want something". I replied "I was told to contact leaving Pine Bluff" to which replied "Not my problem that guy is on break" So I ended up going the long way around just to not **** him off again. I over heard him yelling at a Delta guy a few minutes later for over shooting the approach. I switched to 119.5 and heard the Delta guy, in a highly annoyed voice, tell him that he had turned them to late. :nonod:

I should have said "I am landing Little Rock" just to see what he would say. :idea:
 
ARFlyer said:
I have been denied entry into the Little Rock Class C for making the APP controller annoyed. :mad2: I was on a training x/c into KPBF, which is southeast of LIT, and on approach the controller told me to keep the same squawk and contact him leaving Pine Bluff. The Pine Bluff freq is 119.85 while "normal approach" is 119.5.

So about 20 minutes later I tried calling approach on 119.85 and got no reply. I can hear him talking but since 99% of the other traffic is on 119.5 I can't hear the replies. I also noticed it was a different guy on the freq. So after three attempts on establishing contact he came back saying " Can't you hear that I am busy, stay out of my airspace and contact Memphis if you want something". I replied "I was told to contact leaving Pine Bluff" to which replied "Not my problem that guy is on break" So I ended up going the long way around just to not **** him off again. I over heard him yelling at a Delta guy a few minutes later for over shooting the approach. I switched to 119.5 and heard the Delta guy, in a highly annoyed voice, tell him that he had turned them to late. :nonod:

I should have said "I am landing Little Rock" just to see what he would say. :idea:
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I don't think they can deny you entry into a Class C airspace.:dunno:
 
N801BH said:
I don't think they can deny you entry into a Class C airspace.:dunno:
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He never stated my callsign and he also said "stay out of my airspace". Not stating my callsign is alone enough to deny me entry into his airspace.
 
N801BH said:
I don't think they can deny you entry into a Class C airspace.:dunno:
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That's what I was thinking, they can deny services, but once they acknowledge you unless they tell you to stay clear you're good to enter aren't you?
 
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