Looking to build an airplane

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GSXR69

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GSXR69
Hey there, I'm a new pilot with 170 hours and I'm really interested in building my own airplane.

I have been researching quite a few different airplanes and I am considering the Sling high wing (primarily due to the rotax fadec engine) and the Velocity XL / markIV cozy (the canard fascinates me)

What I'm looking for:
Cross country capable (comfort and cruise speed) for a family of four. Me 220lbs, wife 120lbs, two boys 40 lbs each but growing
Fuel efficient and low cost of ownership - hence experimental
Comfortable with a nice interior and modern avionics and autopilot - g3x touch or dynon hdx
Total budget under $250,000

I'm leaning towards the sling high wing just because most of my training/ flying has been in a Cessna. Any thoughts from this community and/or are there any additional ones I should look into.
 
You can make the interior as plush with any avionics you want. It's experimental.

Everything I've read, the low cost of ownership just because it's experimental is a myth.
 
Thanks for the reply, I do agree that the low cost of ownership could be a myth.

However, I do live in the San Francisco Bay area and low cost of ownership might be relative just because of how expensive it is to rent anything other than a trainer plane. And every time we want to do a trip, the trainer planes are a hassle to book. Hence the decision to build my own plane.

That being said, if you have any other insights that I might not have looked into, please share as it would be much appreciated.
Racerx said:
You can make the interior as plush with any avionics you want. It's experimental.

Everything I've read, the low cost of ownership just because it's experimental is a myth.
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I might be open to a partnership if someone in the San Francisco Bay area is looking for one. I'm close to KHAF and KSQL, could consider KPAO
 
Ruling out a low wing is a mistake, If your looking at sling you need to consider a Sling TSI. Vans RV are incredible planes the 10 flies at 175 knts has a 1000-1200 pnd payload on 12.5 gph.
 
Big jump in cost and effort when you go from 2 to 4 pax. How old will your kids be 5 to 10 years from now when you finish?

Go to Oshkosh or Sun'nFun and get a look at the options in person before you narrow it down.
 
So any particular reason you want to build? If you’re looking at simply ownership, a nice used, true 4-place airplane is well within your budget with money to spare. Used 4-place E-AB aircraft typically command a price premium (there are exceptions of course) so I wouldn’t recommend that route. That said, where E-AB aircraft shine cost wise is when you compare new to new with like performance. There are potentially other savings on the maintenance side but at the cost of your time to build which is not insignificant especially with family and full-time employment factored in. Operational costs, insurance, hangar, etc are basically a wash. The oft quoted phrase is if you want to fly buy, if you want to build, build. The bottom line is pursue E-AB ownership with your eyes wide open as already stated it’s not a panacea.
 
For me, the Sling high wing is the best overall experimental on the market today. The only important mod I would make is to be able to open the pilot window, just like in a Cessna 182. Everything else about this plane is amazing.
 
Racerx said:
You can make the interior as plush with any avionics you want. It's experimental.

Everything I've read, the low cost of ownership just because it's experimental is a myth.
Click to expand...
Parts are less expensive (you can buy a relay at the autoparts store for $40 vs the same one from Cessna for $250, for instance). You can fabricate your own parts. If you build it, you can do all the maintenance AND the inspections. The key is, you can build a new RV-10 for $250K that is the equivalent of the $1M Cirrus.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Go to Oshkosh or Sun'nFun and get a look at the options in person before you narrow it down.
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This is great advice. Also, you really want to sit in the airplane, go for a demo ride, etc. Then talk to builders and owners about their experience.

I know there are great online forums for the RV's. Might browse those for a few months and do the same for the Sling, Velocity, etc.
 
tecprotb said:
Ruling out a low wing is a mistake, If your looking at sling you need to consider a Sling TSI. Vans RV are incredible planes the 10 flies at 175 knts has a 1000-1200 pnd payload on 12.5 gpI
Click to expand...

tecprotb said:
Ruling out a low wing is a mistake, If your looking at sling you need to consider a Sling TSI. Vans RV are incredible planes the 10 flies at 175 knts has a 1000-1200 pnd payload on 12.5 gph.
Click to expand...
The RV 10 was one of my top picks. However, given their recent bankruptcy filing not sure about it. And the sling TSI was originally what I was going to build. However, i prefer egress and ingress of the high wing and worth the price for the cost of a couple of knots
 
kyleb said:
This is great advice. Also, you really want to sit in the airplane, go for a demo ride, etc. Then talk to builders and owners about their experience.

I know there are great online forums for the RV's. Might browse those for a few months and do the same for the Sling, Velocity, etc.
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That is my plan, right now I'm just researching different planes and then once I narrow it down to the top three or four I plan on visiting the factory to do a demo ride. Up until 6 months ago I was certain I was going to build a sling but then I came across the canard style and the velocity. The reason I created this post is to get exposure to other planes that would possibly fit my mission criteria so that I can research the plane.
 
GSXR69 said:
The RV 10 was one of my top picks. However, given their recent bankruptcy filing not sure about it. And the sling TSI was originally what I was going to build. However, i prefer egress and ingress of the high wing and worth the price for the cost of a couple of knots
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Sit in the airplanes you're talking about. On the trip to Oshkosh last year I had a 6'5" 200 lb guy in the back of my RV-10 and his 6'4" 240 lb dad in the passenger seat. Oh, and my 5' 100 lb son was in the back too. Plus about a hundred pounds of baggage. Everyone was comfortable. The -10's backseats are really nice from a space/comfort perspective. My understanding is the Sling is closer to a 2+2 cabin versus the true 4 place room and carrying capacity of the -10. You'll find the kids grow and bring even more crap as they get bigger so a bigger airplane ain't a bad thing.
 
Something to understand about building, is that the average completion time is something like 5-7 years. Dedicated builders can do it much quicker, but they typically are single and have no significant family life. Van's estimates a minimum of 2000 hours to build their 4 seat RV-10. Kyleb can give you a good data point on the RV10 build time.
 
GSXR69 said:
That is my plan, right now I'm just researching different planes and then once I narrow it down to the top three or four I plan on visiting the factory to do a demo ride. Up until 6 months ago I was certain I was going to build a sling but then I came across the canard style and the velocity. The reason I created this post is to get exposure to other planes that would possibly fit my mission criteria so that I can research the plane.
Click to expand...

The canards (I've always been fascinated by the Cozy) are interesting. Very efficient, but with a set of compromises very much tilted to cross country without a lot of baggage. And paved runways.

Have you looked at Grumman AA5-B's? I think they are neat airplanes with good performance.
 
Craig said:
Something to understand about building, is that the average completion time is something like 5-7 years. Dedicated builders can do it much quicker, but they typically are single and have no significant family life. Van's estimates a minimum of 2000 hours to build their 4 seat RV-10. Kyleb can give you a good data point on the RV10 build time.
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6.5 years for both the -10 and the -6. I learned early on the RV-6 project that I wasn't motivated to count hours or log a whole bunch of data, so I'd just say "At least as many hours as Van's says" on both of 'em.

I think Todd (TSTS4 who's posted in this thread) has an online build log with some data. He ain't the only one either. Some friends of mine built a -10 several years ago along with a nice website:

N42BU.com
 
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GSXR69 said:
I might be open to a partnership if someone in the San Francisco Bay area is looking for one. I'm close to KHAF and KSQL, could consider KPAO
Click to expand...

There is a bay area partnerships group on facebook with a few dozen planes for you to consider here.
 
kyleb said:
Parts are less expensive (you can buy a relay at the autoparts store for $40 vs the same one from Cessna for $250, for instance). You can fabricate your own parts. If you build it, you can do all the maintenance AND the inspections. The key is, you can build a new RV-10 for $250K that is the equivalent of the $1M Cirrus.
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Most of the maintenance stuff is probably small potatoes when you figure overall cost of ownership or an engine overhaul. If you have the repairman's cert you can do the condition inspection yourself. But it's probably gonna take longer. I think you really have to enjoy working on things to consider building.

Sure you can build a new rv10 for significantly cheaper than a Currus. But your going to wait 2 years for your kit. Then spend 5 years building. Eventually during that process you're going to be renting a hangar while you can't fly because it's not done yet.

I do plan on building my own RV someday. So I don't want to sound too pessimistic.

If the budget is 250k and like high wings, OP can find a good 182.
 
OP,
What skill sets do you bring to the table?

When your car needs service do you reach for your tool box or your checkbook? The people who say experimental is not cheaper are the checkbook people.

You said you want FADEC. I'm assuming you've hooked your laptop up to the family car, can read codes and troubleshoot issues with sensors? Or do you just think computerized stuff is better?

Do you have experience working with fiberglass or sheet metal? Ever squeezed a rivet or welded something?

Did you ever build and fly r/c planes? A lot of transferable skills there.

The answer can be "no" to a lot of the questions and not be a deal breaker, but it will slow you down. Example: If you're not a fiberglass guy then don't build a Velocity/Glasair/Lanceair.

I've been building for (holy crap) almost 4 years. I can see the finish line and I can honestly say I've enjoyed the whole thing. I've learned a TON of new skills along the way. It has been awesome and will not be my last build.

This morning a found a washer stuck to the bottom of my shoe. Before I peeled it off I said to myself "that's an AN960-10". Then I did peel it off, looked at it and said "L".
 
Racerx said:
You can make the interior as plush with any avionics you want. It's experimental.

Everything I've read, the low cost of ownership just because it's experimental is a myth.
Click to expand...
My last "annual" aka condition inspection, cost me $120.

The year before was about $150.
 
Racerx said:
Most of the maintenance stuff is probably small potatoes when you figure overall cost of ownership or an engine overhaul. If you have the repairman's cert you can do the condition inspection yourself. But it's probably gonna take longer. I think you really have to enjoy working on things to consider building.

Sure you can build a new rv10 for significantly cheaper than a Currus. But your going to wait 2 years for your kit. Then spend 5 years building. Eventually during that process you're going to be renting a hangar while you can't fly because it's not done yet.
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Think about taxes... Here, we pay property taxes on airplanes. Might be different where you live. The RV-10's taxes are in the neighborhood of $2K/yr. That shiny new Cirrus would be about five times as much. Plus the cost of capital on the incremental $800K if we want to consider that. Of course, you're paying a cost in personal time to build an airplane, but it's supposed to be for education and recreation, not about sweating your *** off in the shop in July or busting a knuckle when a tool slips. ;-)
 
kyleb said:
6.5 years for both the -10 and the -6. I learned early on the RV-6 project that I wasn't motivated to count hours or log a whole bunch of data, so I'd just say "At least as many hours as Van's says" on both of 'em.

I think Todd (TSTS4 who's posted in this thread) has an online build log with some data. He ain't the only one either. Some friends of mine built a -10 several years ago along with a nice website:

N42BU.com
Click to expand...

My build log is pretty much useless for a time comparison as I stopped keeping track of time pretty early on. That said, it took me 9 years to build my 10 from the day I placed my first order to first flight. Lots of external factors here -- 2 deployments (Iraq and Afghanistan), family stuff (vacations, kids' school and sports events), work, etc. I would say anecdotally that the average RV-10 build time is closer to 4 years. To get it done in that amount of time requires discipline and compromise. For example, most builders don't do a lot of flying while they're building. This is not the best situation as you approach first flight and the rest of the subsequent Phase I testing. So now you've got to take time to get current and proficient, yadda, yadda. That's why I recommend really looking hard and honestly at the reasons you want to build as there are less expensive and more timely avenues to ownership.

I wholeheartedly support the pervious recommendations to attend Osh or SnF as you'll be able to "test fit" pretty much every make/model out there be it E-AB or standard certificated.

One last piece of advice since you have little kids. If you expect to fly with them as young adults, take that into account now. IOW don't buy or build as you see your family today. I too wanted a 4-place plane because we had 2 kids. They were little when we started but are now grown. We've made exactly 6 trips together over the years. However, the saving grace is, although 95+% of the time it's just me and my wife, the extra space gives a ton of cargo capability that we've used to great extent to the point that I'd never want a 2-place RV or similar aircraft as a result.
 
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Most of the maintenance stuff is probably small potatoes when you figure overall cost of ownership or an engine overhaul.
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Certified or E/AB, you're still going to have to have an engine overhaul at some point. If you send it out, there's no price difference so that's a wash. I had a nose gear collapse. Total cost of repair, parts and repaint was about $1,000. Good luck getting a certified aircraft repaired for that much.
If you have the repairman's cert you can do the condition inspection yourself. But it's probably gonna take longer.
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My annual typically took two light days. Another guy I know who didn't build his plane typically takes a week because the A&P doesn't know the plane as well.

The biggest equalizer on cost of ownership is insurance. I don't know what the RV landscape looks like but insuring a Velocity XL-RG with a $200k hull value ain't pretty. Most of the people I know have dropped their hull values down to the $100K range.
 
GSXR69 said:
Hey there, I'm a new pilot with 170 hours and I'm really interested in building my own airplane.

I have been researching quite a few different airplanes and I am considering the Sling high wing (primarily due to the rotax fadec engine) and the Velocity XL / markIV cozy (the canard fascinates me)

What I'm looking for:
Cross country capable (comfort and cruise speed) for a family of four. Me 220lbs, wife 120lbs, two boys 40 lbs each but growing
Fuel efficient and low cost of ownership - hence experimental
Comfortable with a nice interior and modern avionics and autopilot - g3x touch or dynon hdx
Total budget under $250,000

I'm leaning towards the sling high wing just because most of my training/ flying has been in a Cessna. Any thoughts from this community and/or are there any additional ones I should look into.
Click to expand...
I obviously biased. One factor missing is how long are those cross country flights going to be? 400nm or less? RV might be better. Longer than that and the Velocity starts looking better.

My XL-RG cruised at 200kts. My wife has a 2.5 hour leg sweet spot (she'll stretch it to 3 if it works out better for the stop). So we can cover 500-600nm per leg. My Velocity had some upgrades and I had a max gross of 3,200lbs. But even at low gross weights, you're really limited to long, paved runways. Absolutely no backcountry landings. Baggage space is okay. A pain to get to and not as much space as the 182-RG that I flew for 15 years before finishing the Velocity.

As for skill level with fiberglass, I had some working on boats as a teenager. But that was long ago. Velocity has a "Head start" program where you can start your build at the factory for as many weeks as you want. You get access to employees and other builders that will provide you with a ton of good information. I know a few people who have built their entire plane in Sebastian. That can get the build time down to 1 year. But (I'm guessing) it ain't cheap. Especially if you live a long ways from Florida.

One thing you DEFINITELY want to look into is getting an insurance quote. I was a 1,500 hour, IR pilot with about 1,300 retract and HP hours when I finished my Velocity and insurance was about $4k per year with a $160k hull value. But that was almost 10 years ago and by the time I sold the plane, that number had gotten to the point that I dropped the hull value to $100k to get the price down to a palatable number. With a low time pilot, you might discover you can't get coverage at all. Best to look into that first.
 
donjohnston said:
The biggest equalizer on cost of ownership is insurance. I don't know what the RV landscape looks like but insuring a Velocity XL-RG with a $200k hull value ain't pretty. Most of the people I know have dropped their hull values down to the $100K range.
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The RV-10 is about $2600/yr with a value of $225k. It is probably underinsured. I’ve got 1900 or so hours as a PPSEL.
 
Whatever you settle on, please learn how to do wiring properly and use aircraft-quality parts. Save yourself or some future owner from having to troubleshoot and unravel rats nests that looks it was done by the Little Rascals.
 
This is all really great advice. I want to say thank you to all of you for your suggestions as it is giving me a lot to think about.

I think what is top of mind right now is the time it will take to build. My kinds are 5 and 6 right now and this is something I was looking to do so that they could be involved but I am starting to realize that it is risky as they might loose interest and then I definitely don't want to be the dad that spent all evenings and weekends in the garage / hanger. Something I need to think about a bit more.

Question for the community, If I were to buy an experimental that is fully built. Are there any differences, can I do my own maintenance / fixes? This is something I did not consider originally as I am going to put a lot of trust in someone else's workmanship but perhaps I should consider it and figure out way to ensure I can validate the build quality / workmanship.
 
GSXR69 said:
Question for the community, If I were to buy an experimental that is fully built. Are there any differences, can I do my own maintenance / fixes? This is something I did not consider originally as I am going to put a lot of trust in someone else's workmanship but perhaps I should consider it and figure out way to ensure I can validate the build quality / workmanship.
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Anyone at all can do work, maintenance, repairs and modifications to Experimental aircraft. The only thing you can’t do is the condition inspection, which has to be done by an A&P - IA not required. A condition inspection is for all practical purposes the same as an annual. A condition inspection has to be done by an A&P or the holder of a Repairman certificate, which can only be issued to the builder of record and is specific to that serial number.

Keep in mind that even if it’s a quick build kit done with the help of a build shop, and has a prebuilt panel done by one of the leading companies, and the plans were followed to the letter, it is a unique aircraft and won’t be identical to another of the same model and equipment.

You can have a pre-buy evaluation done by someone who is an expert in that type. For RVs especially there are some guys out there known as the go-to sources for pre-buys. But as always, you have to direct them as to what the pre-buy will encompass, since it’s a user-defined term.
 
GSXR69 said:
If I were to buy an experimental that is fully built. Are there any differences, can I do my own maintenance / fixes?
Click to expand...
Yes. You do, however, need to get an A&P to do the condition inspection each year. I would, in general, suggest having the A&P you want to perform the condition inspections do an inspection with you before you buy. Avoid the potential YGBFSM...

Some of the popular brand name aircraft (e.g. Vans) have type experts that you can hire to inspect.

Look at the quality of the riveting, wiring, fuel systems, etc. That will tell you a lot. Of course, if it was assembled by Boeing, you would want to inspect for missing bolts.

But it looks like Mr. A. Teamer either types faster than I or didn't have to stop to bring the dog in from the back yard. :)
 
GSXR69 said:
My kinds are 5 and 6 right now and this is something I was looking to do so that they could be involved but I am starting to realize that it is risky as they might loose interest and then I definitely don't want to be the dad that spent all evenings and weekends in the garage / hanger.
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At that age, your kids will get bored after 15 minutes. They will then distract themselves by picking up sharp tools and toxic chemicals.

You'll either spend your weekends and evenings in the garage/hangar alone, or take 10 years to finish.

Building a plane is not a recipe for family togetherness. It is a recipe for missing soccer practice, dance recitals, family dinners, etc.
 
Ed Haywood said:
At that age, your kids will get bored after 15 minutes. They will then distract themselves by picking up sharp tools and toxic chemicals.

You'll either spend your weekends and evenings in the garage/hangar alone, or take 10 years to finish.

Building a plane is not a recipe for family togetherness. It is a recipe for missing soccer practice, dance recitals, family dinners, etc.
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This is all true. I built my -10 in the evenings, after the rest of the family was done for the night. It beat watching TV or trolling the interweb. I don’t think it was detrimental to the family, but the schedule wouldn’t work for everyone…
 
Maybe your needs might be served by being part of a small club or partnership? Whatever happens, it sounds like you could do with a better solution for your flying while you're in the process of choosing a plane/ waiting for the kit/ building the plane anyway.

Have a look at https://www.flyingvets.club/home - someone on a list I'm on was selling their share last year - PM me if you'd like me to find out if their share is still available. They were selling it for ~$8000.
 
tsts4 said:
One last piece of advice since you have little kids. If you expect to fly with them as young adults, take that into account now. IOW don't buy or build as you see your family today. I too wanted a 4-place plane because we had 2 kids. They were little when we started but are now grown. We've made exactly 6 trips together over the years. However, the saving grace is, although 95+% of the time it's just me and my wife, the extra space gives a ton of cargo capability that we've used to great extent to the point that I'd never want a 2-place RV or similar aircraft as a result.
Click to expand...
I have maybe 17 flights with one of my 3 kids…in 17 years. They always have something else going on (sports, horses, parties, whatever)

Ymmv

Good luck
 
Ed Haywood said:
At that age, your kids will get bored after 15 minutes. They will then distract themselves by picking up sharp tools and toxic chemicals.

You'll either spend your weekends and evenings in the garage/hangar alone, or take 10 years to finish.

Building a plane is not a recipe for family togetherness. It is a recipe for missing soccer practice, dance recitals, family dinners, etc.
Click to expand...

My kids had zero interest in my project despite my best efforts. I've got pics of them both doing something during the build, but those were one and done moments. They also never really cared about flying whatsoever even with trips to Osh. Luckily for me, my wife is more into it which is what really matters.
 
I dont care anything about builing a plane but love flying an Experimental, I'm on my 4th Vans RV. I like being able to work on them and making upgrades for 1/3rd the cost. Plus down time is so much less.
 
Get a 172. Fly it a lot. Go places with your family. Then get a 182. Or heck start there. We have flown all over the country in our 182. Started in a 172 and flew it all over the country too. Took a month and travelled the west one year. Many trips west and south. All an adventure and pure family time. I dreamed about building a Kitfox with my boys, but the time we spent flying places and being together probably beat hell out of wrenching in the garage from a “quality time” perspective. You have a great budget for a family traveler. Do that.
 
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