Looking for raw data defining terminal procedures

Salty

Salty

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Salty
I’ve wasted a day now trying to find a database with approach procedures defined. I’m not looking for charts, I’m looking for raw data like
1) a list of all approaches
2) the fixes that are part of the approach
3) altitude limitations
4) type of approach
Etc

It seems like this data should exist somewhere, but I sure as heck can’t find it.

somewhere in the back of my head I identify @Brad Z as being someone that might know about this kind of thing, but my memory suck so sorry to bother you if not.
 
I’m guessing the TERPS people have that database and knowing how arcane the FAA IT systems are (they have systems still running DOS off floppies) it’s probably not internet accessible.
 
Look for DAFIF

I don't know if there are copies of DAFIF publically accessible.
 
By "raw data" do you mean just the source documentation, or are you looking for digital data? If you mean the source documents, did you look on the IFP Gateway? Under the IFP Documents tab. That will give you the source documentation. Is that what you're looking for?


In association with this, you can access the individual fix records at


If it's actual digital data you're looking for, try the following link, and the CIFP link on that page. See if that works for what you need.

 
RussR said:
By "raw data" do you mean just the source documentation, or are you looking for digital data? If you mean the source documents, did you look on the IFP Gateway? Under the IFP Documents tab. That will give you the source documentation. Is that what you're looking for?


In association with this, you can access the individual fix records at


If it's actual digital data you're looking for, try the following link, and the CIFP link on that page. See if that works for what you need.

Click to expand...
That’s the hole I’ve been down all day…..
 
RussR said:
Which of those does not meet your needs and why?
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I’ve not found one of them that provides the info I described in my op. I’ll look again though.
 
Salty said:
I’ve not found one of them that provides the info I described in my op. I’ll look again though.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to help, but you're being a little vague about what you want, and what you want to do with it.

The CIFP does include everything you list, but obviously you have to be familiar with the ARINC 424-18 specification to understand it. However, if you are looking for the actual data behind the procedures, that's where it is. And if you are attempting to work with this actual data, you will need to be familiar with the spec anyway.

If you're just looking for a human-readable database of the source documents, that's in the other links I sent. That also has everything you listed, except maybe not a "list of all procedures" like you may want. I don't know of such a source.
 
RussR said:
I'm trying to help, but you're being a little vague about what you want, and what you want to do with it.

The CIFP does include everything you list, but obviously you have to be familiar with the ARINC 424-18 specification to understand it. However, if you are looking for the actual data behind the procedures, that's where it is. And if you are attempting to work with this actual data, you will need to be familiar with the spec anyway.

If you're just looking for a human-readable database of the source documents, that's in the other links I sent. That also has everything you listed, except maybe not a "list of all procedures" like you may want. I don't know of such a source.
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As I said, I’ll take another look, but I wasn’t seeing it.

I want to be able to look up a list of procedures for an airport and then get the fixes that are used in a given procedure. Altitudes along the route would be a bonus, but that’s probably asking too much.
 
I didn’t see the 424 data, but that does look like what I want. Might have just not known what I was looking at.
 
Salty said:
Heh. I got linked to this doc a dozen times and I kept ignoring it because it looked like it had nothing to do with what I wanted, but I see now I was wrong. https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...cedures_handbook/FAA-H-8083-16B_Chapter_6.pdf
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This is kinda freak'n me out! I was researching exactly this last night.

I have recently had to explain to a couple of friends exactly how they should determine which "subscriptions" they should purchase based on the avionics they fly behind and what kind of flying they do. And also, if there was any way to get free database updates.

This has got me thinking that this is a big hole in the pilot educational resources for modern glass cockpits.

May I ask what you're planning on using this information for? Is it just for your own personal learning, or are you designing a new app or something?
 
wilkersk said:
This is kinda freak'n me out! I was researching exactly this last night.

I have recently had to explain to a couple of friends exactly how they should determine which "subscriptions" they should purchase based on the avionics they fly behind and what kind of flying they do. And also, if there was any way to get free database updates.

This has got me thinking that this is a big hole in the pilot educational resources for modern glass cockpits.

May I ask what you're planning on using this information for? Is it just for your own personal learning, or are you designing a new app or something?
Click to expand...
I’m doing research right now, but I have a few ideas in mind.
 
RussR said:
By "raw data" do you mean just the source documentation, or are you looking for digital data? If you mean the source documents, did you look on the IFP Gateway? Under the IFP Documents tab. That will give you the source documentation. Is that what you're looking for?


In association with this, you can access the individual fix records at


If it's actual digital data you're looking for, try the following link, and the CIFP link on that page. See if that works for what you need.

Click to expand...
This is the way...

This data is far more difficult to find and use than most FAA digital data. Other forms tend to be freely downloadable and have data dictionaries included. CIFP data, you can download now (it wasn't always that easy) but you still need to get a hold of the ARINC 424 spec, which is more challenging.
 
Salty said:
I’ve wasted a day now trying to find a database with approach procedures defined. I’m not looking for charts, I’m looking for raw data like
1) a list of all approaches
2) the fixes that are part of the approach
3) altitude limitations
4) type of approach
Etc

It seems like this data should exist somewhere, but I sure as heck can’t find it.

somewhere in the back of my head I identify @Brad Z as being someone that might know about this kind of thing, but my memory suck so sorry to bother you if not.
Click to expand...
Man, I'm late to the party on this one. @RussR beat me to it; just as well, this is very much his swim lane.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
This is the way...

This data is far more difficult to find and use than most FAA digital data. Other forms tend to be freely downloadable and have data dictionaries included. CIFP data, you can download now (it wasn't always that easy) but you still need to get a hold of the ARINC 424 spec, which is more challenging.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say obtaining the spec is "challenging", as far as I can tell you can purchase the ARINC spec from SAE on their web page:

SAE International | Advancing mobility knowledge and solutions

www.sae.org www.sae.org

It appears you just create a login, and then $503 later, it's yours. So, depending on intended use, potentially expensive, but not hard to get.

Now, "understanding" it, that's a separate issue.
 
Is there a reason you didn’t link to the latest version of the spec?
 
Salty said:
Is there a reason you didn’t link to the latest version of the spec?
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Because the ARINC 424-18 version of the spec is the one currently being used by the FAA for the CIFP data. They mention this on the CIFP download page.
 
RussR said:
Because the ARINC 424-18 version of the spec is the one currently being used by the FAA for the CIFP data. They mention this on the CIFP download page.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I had a feeling that might be the case, which is why I asked. Appreciate
 
RussR said:
I wouldn't say obtaining the spec is "challenging", as far as I can tell you can purchase the ARINC spec from SAE on their web page:

SAE International | Advancing mobility knowledge and solutions

www.sae.org www.sae.org

It appears you just create a login, and then $503 later, it's yours. So, depending on intended use, potentially expensive, but not hard to get.

Now, "understanding" it, that's a separate issue.
Click to expand...

I have no trouble understanding the spec. I do have trouble wanting to spend $500+ on it when really I just kinda want to play around with the data for fun. Therein lies the challenge.
 
Salty said:
Just wanted to come back and say @RussR was right on the money. I found exactly what I was looking for and a gazillion things more.
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Glad to hear you found what you needed.

I have to add that the CIFP is not 100% complete, however. There are approach procedures out there that are not included, because they are not coded.

For example, the HYS VOR/DME RWY 16 and 34. These are decades-old procedures and it has been a long time since their last full amendment (abbreviated amendments notwithstanding). The DME fixes don't even have names, since none were required at the time. Coding requires fix names, so they won't be in the CIFP as far as I know. (I do know they are not available in the FMS we use at work when we have to check them.) For these specific procedures, they are actually scheduled to be canceled in 2026.
 
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