Logging/counting cross-country through

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mcmanigle

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John McManigle
Hi all,

A question re logging XC time (or "counting" it, the lovely 50nm sort for ratings other than ATP): When does a "flight" end for the purpose of logging?

For example, if I go fly to an airport 48nm away, pick up a passenger, and then go do a touch-and-go at an airport 5nm further away (ie >50nm straight-line from my starting point), can I log / count the full time as a 50nm cross-country?

In other words, when does my "flight" end? Based on the touch-and-go's and taxi-back's of PPL training, I assume it has little to do with touching the ground. I've seen some language regarding "coming to rest after landing" but surely that would mean that you have to stop logging time as soon as you pause clear of the runway for a taxi clearance, and I don't know anyone who does that. Turning the engine off? Getting out of the plane? What if you're on an IFR "through" clearance? On a single VFR flight plan (though I know this isn't advised).

Anyway, would appreciate your thoughts.

John
 
mcmanigle said:
Hi all,

A question re logging XC time (or "counting" it, the lovely 50nm sort for ratings other than ATP): When does a "flight" end for the purpose of logging?

For example, if I go fly to an airport 48nm away, pick up a passenger, and then go do a touch-and-go at an airport 5nm further away (ie >50nm straight-line from my starting point), can I log / count the full time as a 50nm cross-country?

In other words, when does my "flight" end? Based on the touch-and-go's and taxi-back's of PPL training, I assume it has little to do with touching the ground. I've seen some language regarding "coming to rest after landing" but surely that would mean that you have to stop logging time as soon as you pause clear of the runway for a taxi clearance, and I don't know anyone who does that. Turning the engine off? Getting out of the plane? What if you're on an IFR "through" clearance? On a single VFR flight plan (though I know this isn't advised).

Anyway, would appreciate your thoughts.

John
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Yep. You could even make an infinite number of stops on the way.

When it ends? More or less when you want it to - within reason. I personally consider anything I do in a single plane in a single day "a flight." (flying after midnight notwithstanding) If I stay the night somewhere, the next day is a new flight. But that's just me.
 
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Keep in mind that the 50 nm limit is only relevant to the experience requirements for private, instrument and commercial ratings. Techncially even that 5 mile skip from one airport to the next is cross country by the definition of 60.1 as long as you use dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to figure out how to get there.

Of course, I'm not sure why else you'd need cross country time, so I'm not sure why you would care about logging less than 50nm flights. Insurance maybe?
 
When does a flight begin and end? Here's my rule:

A pilot's certificate is required if the aircraft is moving under its own power for the purpose of flight.

If I am going flying, my certificate is open to FAA action from the moment I start the engine, until the moment I stop the engine. If I am subject to certificate action as the PIC, then it's PIC for my logbook.
 
And when you can't -- Steve Fossett in the Virgin Atlantic Global Flyer flew around the world, taking off and landing at the same airport. So it couldn't be counted as a cross country flight.
 
PilotAlan said:
If I am going flying, my certificate is open to FAA action from the moment I start the engine, until the moment I stop the engine. If I am subject to certificate action as the PIC, then it's PIC for my logbook.
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Too bad that's not how the FAA counts PIC time.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The part that he couldn't log it as cross country. :rolleyes2:
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He could count it as XC time towards ATP XC requirements under the exception of subparagraph (vi) of 61.1(b)(4),



(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight--

  • (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
    (B ) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
  • (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
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...but not under the basic XC definition:




(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(4)(ii) through (b)(4)(vi) of this section, time acquired during a flight--

  • (A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
    (B ) Conducted in an aircraft;
    (C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
  • (D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
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...or any of the other five exceptions. So, as President Clinton would say, "That depends on what the definition of 'cross-country' is," and you have seven of them from which to choose, one of which is satisfied but six of which are not.
 
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Ron Levy said:
...but not under the basic XC definition:




...or any of the other five exceptions. So, as President Clinton would say, "That depends on what the definition of 'cross-country' is," and you have seven of them from which to choose, one of which is satisfied but six of which are not.
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Yeah, but no one in the FAA could expect a non stop round the world flight like that. I seriously doubt anyone in the FAA would have gigged Steve for logging it as cross country.

It would have been pretty chicken**** of the FAA to do so, IMO.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yeah, but no one in the FAA could expect a non stop round the world flight like that. I seriously doubt anyone in the FAA would have gigged Steve for logging it as cross country.

It would have been pretty chicken**** of the FAA to do so, IMO.
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Nobody in the FAA would even look at the XC column unless he was presenting his log for meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a certificate/rating.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nobody in the FAA would even look at the XC column unless he was presenting his log for meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a certificate/rating.
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Even if he was, do you REALLY think they would make an issue of it?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Sigh.
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Not sure about the sigh. Some years ago, one of the flight schools in the Denver area had a student or instructor who misunderstood the requirement and one of the cross countries in the student's logbook was a >50 NM cross country without a landing. DPE terminated the practical test before every getting in the airplane until the student did a countable cross country.
 
Out of curiosity, would you all log 49.7 nm as cross country? No other stops. Did have a 10nm bonus for dodging class B.
 
This begs another question with respect to "straight-line distance"...if you use a flight planning tool it's going to use the GPS coordinates for the airport which is, loosely, at some point mid-field. But when students go from the east end of KFCM's 28L to the last exit on KSTC's 31, I suspect you've gone more than the 50 nm listed as the distance between those two airports. Or of you're lining up for Rwy 13 you'll definitely travel in excess of 50 nm. Is this a xc for commercial experience purposes?

Let the games begin...
 
masloki said:
Out of curiosity, would you all log 49.7 nm as cross country? No other stops. Did have a 10nm bonus for dodging class B.
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The reg reads very clearly "more than 50 nautical miles" to meet the XC requirement for Private, Instrument, or Commercial in an airplane. 49.7 is not more than 50. And since the examiner can utilize any number of flight planning tools to determine that the distance between the official airport centers of the two airports involved is not more than 50 nm, it would be rather foolish to show up for a practical test with that in your logbook if you need that flight to meet the XC requirement for Private, Instrument, or Commercial in an airplane.
 
LDJones said:
This begs another question with respect to "straight-line distance"...if you use a flight planning tool it's going to use the GPS coordinates for the airport which is, loosely, at some point mid-field. But when students go from the east end of KFCM's 28L to the last exit on KSTC's 31, I suspect you've gone more than the 50 nm listed as the distance between those two airports. Or of you're lining up for Rwy 13 you'll definitely travel in excess of 50 nm. Is this a xc for commercial experience purposes?

Let the games begin...
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There are no games. Plotters and sectionals are deader than, well, dead for this purpose. Today, every examiner is going to use a computer-based flight planning tool to check this so you can't quibble about the thickness of a pencil mark. If the great circle distance between the official airport reference point (ARP) coordinates for the two airports is not greater than 50 (i.e., the two digits to the left of the decimal point are not 50 or higher), you're not going to get credited for the flight.

No, there is no regulation which states this, nor is it written in an FAA Order, but that's the way they all do it. If the computer shows the airports being less then 50nm apart, you are not going to win an argument on the point by saying the end of the runway from which you started your takeoff roll was over 50nm from the end of the runway on which you landed at the destination. So do yourself (or your students, if you are an instructor) a favor and check this before you go (or send your student) on a flight intended to count for XC experience for PP, IR, or CP in an airplane.
 
Apropos the 49.7 NM cross country while measuring the runway length to try to make it 50.1, it always strikes me as curious that people who want to learn to fly try to come up with all sorts of ways to not fly. "Let's see how close I can get to a teeny bit over 50 NM" instead of flying a little further to the next airport always seemed a little weird to me.
 
Ron Levy said:
There are no games. Plotters and sectionals are deader than, well, dead for this purpose. Today, every examiner is going to use a computer-based flight planning tool to check this so you can't quibble about the thickness of a pencil mark. If the great circle distance between the official airport reference point (ARP) coordinates for the two airports is not greater than 50 (i.e., the two digits to the left of the decimal point are not 50 or higher), you're not going to get credited for the flight.
Click to expand...

So, if 51 is required, why didn't they say that in the reg? Seems 50.1 nm is, indeed, more than 50 nm.

Since we're talking computer precision, let's be precise.
 
LDJones said:
So, if 51 is required, why didn't they say that in the reg?
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51 is not required. More than 50 is.

Seems 50.1 nm is, indeed, more than 50 nm.
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It is, and it's good enough, and nobody ever said it wasn't. But 49.7 is not, and that was the distance under discussion.

Since we're talking computer precision, let's be precise.
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Agreed. And the discussion was about precisely 49.7 nm, which is not more than 50 nm, not 50.1, which is more than 50 nm. And if the distance really is 50.1, the two digits to the left of the decimal point will be 50 or higher.
 
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Ron Levy said:
51 is not required. More than 50 is.

It is, and it's good enough, and nobody ever said it wasn't. But 49.7 is not, and that was the distance under discussion.

Agreed. And the discussion was about precisely 49.7 nm, not 50.1.
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Your previous post said the two digits left of the decimal had to be greater than 50, which would be 51. I will accept that you misspoke.
 
LDJones said:
Your previous post said the two digits left of the decimal had to be greater than 50, which would be 51.
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No, it did not. It said "(i.e., the two digits to the left of the decimal point are not 50 or higher)". "50 or higher" is not the same as "greater than 50."

I will accept that you misspoke.
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I did not misspeak, but I will accept that you misread. ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
No, it did not. It said "(i.e., the two digits to the left of the decimal point are not 50 or higher)". "50 or higher" is not the same as "greater than 50."

I did not misspeak, but I will accept that you misread. ;)
Click to expand...

Your reputation is so well-deserved!
 
Ron Levy said:
51 is not required. More than 50 is.

It is, and it's good enough, and nobody ever said it wasn't. But 49.7 is not, and that was the distance under discussion.

Agreed. And the discussion was about precisely 49.7 nm, which is not more than 50 nm, not 50.1, which is more than 50 nm. And if the distance really is 50.1, the two digits to the left of the decimal point will be 50 or higher.
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Are we really wasting perfectly good electrons discussing the difference between logging a flight cross country based on the difference of 0.1 miles. I would think the spirit of the regulation and the experience of the cross country is what is important not whether you do 49.9999999 miles or 50.0000001 miles.
 
douglas393 said:
Are we really wasting perfectly good electrons discussing the difference between logging a flight cross country based on the difference of 0.1 miles. I would think the spirit of the regulation and the experience of the cross country is what is important not whether you do 49.9999999 miles or 50.0000001 miles.
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The question was, I thought, what the regulation says and how that affects your application for a pilot certificate/rating including the required logbook review by the examiner giving you the practical test. In the interest of ensuring that the person asking that question does not get turned back from the practical test for not meeting the prerequisites for that test, I provided an answer which guarantees the applicant will not have a problem on this issue.

If the applicant shows up with some of the required XC hours being on a flight where the landing farthest from the original point of departure was at an airport only 49.7nm away, the examiner is required by regulation and order to refuse the application and send the applicant home to complete the experience requirements of the governing regulations. If the FAA finds out after the fact that an examiner cheated on this and granted a certificate/rating to someone who did not actually meed the experience requirements for that certificate/rating at the time of the issuance, the examiner can be in serious trouble.

You may feel the spirit of the regulation should be observed rather than the letter of the law, but the FAA doesn't normally work that way, and in this instance, the letter of the law is a clear, objective standard which examiners do not have the discretion to waive. Further, if we're talking about the "spirit of the regulation", then where would you draw the line? 49.7? 49.5, which rounds up to 50 with two significant digits? 46, which rounds up on one significant digit? 40? 30? Just where does it stop, and what happens when one examiner allows "spirit" but another examiner requires "letter", or the examiners allows less for one applicant but not another on some subjective basis of the "quality" of the sub-50nm flight?
:dunno:
 
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LDJones said:
So, if 51 is required, why didn't they say that in the reg? Seems 50.1 nm is, indeed, more than 50 nm.

Since we're talking computer precision, let's be precise.
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It's very precise. More than 50. Not 50, more than 50.

There is no decimal equivalent to >50, it's a logical function.
If x is >50, y is true.
If x is not >50, y is false.
 
Ron Levy said:
There are no games. Plotters and sectionals are deader than, well, dead for this purpose. Today, every examiner is going to use a computer-based flight planning tool to check this so you can't quibble about the thickness of a pencil mark. If the great circle distance between the official airport reference point (ARP) coordinates for the two airports is not greater than 50 (i.e., the two digits to the left of the decimal point are not 50 or higher), you're not going to get credited for the flight.
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Ron, you have taken and observed far more checkrides than me. But are you telling me that examiners actually sit there and calculate the distance of each XC? I've never had an examiner take anything more than a cursory flip through my logbook, and most of them have never even opened it. Now, that's only 7 different examiners, including one FAA inspector, but I've never been questioned on cross country time, or any time for that matter (but I've always made sure that I had enough XC, and they were all unquestionably over 50 nm).
 
RussR said:
Ron, you have taken and observed far more checkrides than me. But are you telling me that examiners actually sit there and calculate the distance of each XC?
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On occasion, yes, when they think the distance between the airports is not more than 50nm and they haven't seen that one before.

I've never had an examiner take anything more than a cursory flip through my logbook, and most of them have never even opened it. Now, that's only 7 different examiners, including one FAA inspector, but I've never been questioned on cross country time, or any time for that matter (but I've always made sure that I had enough XC, and they were all unquestionably over 50 nm).
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That is changing. From FAA Order 8900.2:
As a special emphasis item , the examiner must review the applicant’s
aeronautical experience recorded on FAA Form 8710-1 and in the applicant’s logbook/training
record to ensure compliance with the appropriate aeronautical experience requirements for the​
certificate and/or rating sought.
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The FAA is getting very strict on this, and has even directed examiners to check the ground training portion of the pilot logbooks for logged ground training in all aeronautical knowledge areas (e.g., the 13 areas in 61.105(b) for PP) along with an appropriate amount of time logged for each ground training session. No doubt there are examiners who don't do that routinely, but I'm pretty sure they will on an observed practical test, and I've even seen some with a checklist they use to review the logged ground training to see that every required area was covered at some point.

If you're an instructor, make darn sure all these items meet the regulatory requirements and are properly logged IAW 61.51 (including ground training) before you sign the logbook endorsement and 8710-1. If you don't, you risk having your trainee turned back before the test starts, and perhaps having the DPE report your lack of attention to detail to the FSDO.
 
What ground training?

61.103
(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who:

(1) Conducted the training or reviewed the person's home study ...

My last student and I had no ground lessons.
 
EdFred said:
What ground training?

61.103
(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who:

(1) Conducted the training or reviewed the person's home study ...
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That review must be logged and signed as ground training, including all areas covered and the time spent on it. If you don't believe me, just call your FSDO and ask.
My last student and I had no ground lessons.
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You and your last student are lucky.
 
Ron Levy said:
The FAA is getting very strict on this, and has even directed examiners to check the ground training portion of the pilot logbooks for logged ground training in all aeronautical knowledge areas (e.g., the 13 areas in 61.105(b) for PP) along with an appropriate amount of time logged for each ground training session.
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Can you show the reference for this?
 
Ron Levy said:
I did. FAA Order 8900.2. Search for "special emphasis." If you need it explained in detail, just contact an Inspector at your local FSDO or someone who's been to the DPE refresher lately.
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Well, 8900.2 says
As a special emphasis item , the examiner must review the applicant’s
 aeronautical experience recorded on FAA Form 8710-1 and in the applicant’s logbook/training
 record to ensure compliance with the appropriate aeronautical experience requirements for the​
certificate and/or rating sought.

Then you added "and has even directed examiners to check the ground training portion of the pilot logbooks for logged ground training in all aeronautical knowledge areas (e.g., the 13 areas in 61.105(b) for PP) along with an appropriate amount of time logged for each ground training session.

However I asked one of the Inspectors I use to work with if there was a requirement for the DPE's to "check for the appropriate amount of time logged for each ground training session" and he said he was unaware of such a requirement. He did mention the 8900.2 special emphasis item.
Ron Levy said:
just contact an Inspector at your local FSDO or someone who's been to the DPE refresher lately.
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Inspectors who oversee DPE's are required to attend the DPE refresher courses just as well.
 
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