Logbook (Redundancy) App

[RedundancyTanner]

Hello,

I’ve been working on a Logbook app. I’m a software guy by profession, not a pilot, yet, as I had just started taking weekly lessons when I got caught in layoffs in September.

I’m pretty sure everyone here already has a Logbook and I don’t expect anyone to switch from what they currently use, but here’s the quick spiel. - I wanted just a logbook, that was easy to use, and private.



My goal is to make software people want to use because it improves their lives. And to treat them fairly and respectfully for putting their trust into it. And in doing so, I hope it forces all software companies to improve not just their products, but how they treat us.

Overall, I’m trying to make the best looking app, that the easiest to use, while being the most affordable.


I’m happy to answer any and all questions. Especially the difficult ones. As well as any feedback.

You can check out more on the App Store
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/6738026042

 

[RedundancyTanner]

The real reason for this thread is I’ve been working on adding CSV importing and I’m looking for real data to test with.

If you don’t mind exporting and sharing your logbook CSV, please send me a PM or leave a message. In exchange I can send you a promo-code for unlimited logs as a thank you.

I’ll take any logbook format you use, but right now I’m focusing on ForeFlight, MyFlightBook, and LogTen Pro. My plan is to spend April validating imports and writing tests. Then submit an update that includes importing CSV files for those 3 sometime in late May.


Here’s a preview of what the import process currently looks like

 

[Lindberg]

The real reason for this thread is I’ve been working on adding CSV importing and I’m looking for real data to test with.

If you don’t mind exporting and sharing your logbook CSV, please send me a PM or leave a message. In exchange I can send you a promo-code for unlimited logs as a thank you.

I’ll take any logbook format you use, but right now I’m focusing on ForeFlight, MyFlightBook, and LogTen Pro. My plan is to spend April validating imports and writing tests. Then submit an update that includes importing CSV files for those 3 sometime in late May.


Here’s a preview of what the import process currently looks like
View attachment 151127

Since you're targeting pilots who already have an electronic log, you might want to say more about yours. MyFlightBook is already free forever (with optional donations). What makes your beta enough better that I'd want to give you my logbook?

 

[RedundancyTanner]

Since you're targeting pilots who already have an electronic log, you might want to say more about yours.

It's really just a logbook.

There's no social features, no career advice, no automation or AI. It's a straight forward logbook with a vertical, row based layout that's primarily single screen based. And it populates large easy to tap buttons to help speed up your logging based on your history, FAA data, and what you've typed.

I don't expect anyone to switch from what they currently use. We are all to some degree pilots, not logbook enthusiasts. If you have something that works for you, that's all you need. But if you like seeing new technology, or find anything about the logbook you use frustrating, this is simply another option available, that's free to try and doesn't require an account signup.

What makes your beta app enough better that I'd want to give you my logbook?

This is probably one of the biggest points actually.

I don't have access to your data in the app. I don't collect your data in the app. I can not access your data in the app. I do not want your data.

Yes, I am looking for people who are comfortable with sharing their logbook with me. But it's not because I want it. I really don't. But there's always unforeseen issues when you deal with mapping data from one format to another, and I'd rather find and fix as many of those problems as I can before releasing the on device importing, opposed to not having it work correctly.

 

[frfly172]

I have been using my flightbook and I’m happy with it ,meets my needs and I’m also a contributor

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's really just a logbook.

Are you including digital signature capability for training flights and endorsements? If not, something like that has been around for decades. Before moving to MyFlightBook almost 20 years ago (I can’t believe it’s been that long), I was using a DIY database I started in DOS in the mid-1990s

 

[RedundancyTanner]

Are you including digital signature capability for training flights and endorsements? If not, something like that has been around for decades. Before moving to MyFlightBook almost 20 years ago (I can’t believe it’s been that long), I was using a DIY database I started in DOS in the mid-1990s

There's endorsements. Both for flights and training and standalone endorsements. All my flights are logged in the app and endorsed by my CFI.

 

[EricBe]

If you've got good UI chops, then why re-invent the wheel? MyFlightbook is open source and is web+android+iOS - why not come help make the UI better there? Or any functionality for that matter...

 

[RedundancyTanner]

If you've got good UI chops, then why re-invent the wheel? MyFlightbook is open source and is web+android+iOS - why not come help make the UI better there? Or any functionality for that matter...

The wheel is always being reinvented. - Why bother making a digital logbook? Papers worked fine for hundred of years!

 

[Jeffrey Hughes]

Hello,

I’ve been working on a Logbook app. I’m a software guy by profession, not a pilot, yet, as I had just started taking weekly lessons when I got caught in layoffs in September.

I’m pretty sure everyone here already has a Logbook and I don’t expect anyone to switch from what they currently use, but here’s the quick spiel. - I wanted just a logbook, that was easy to use, and private.

View attachment 151126

My goal is to make software people want to use because it improves their lives. And to treat them fairly and respectfully for putting their trust into it. And in doing so, I hope it forces all software companies to improve not just their products, but how they treat us.

Overall, I’m trying to make the best looking app, that the easiest to use, while being the most affordable.


I’m happy to answer any and all questions. Especially the difficult ones. As well as any feedback.

You can check out more on the App Store
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/6738026042

I will check it out because I have not been pleased with the layout of other digital logbooks. I created my own digital logbook using Apple Numbers, it's basically a facsimile of my real life log book. I use this to create a printable back up that is clearer to read. I print once a year on 11x17 paper to put in a tabloid size binder. It would be nice if a digital log book could print/PDF in various traditional logbook layouts (ASA for example). It also would be nice that the App was formatted (able to use a keyboard and mouse) to work on the MAC OS too (Desktop). Don't let those hard headed luddites deter you, I bet they would fight the electric lightbulb if they were in the late 19th century. Who needs a lightbulb, candles and lanterns work just fine.

 

[TCABM]

It's really just a logbook….

Not to beat a dead horse, but have you looked at MyFlightbook as your competition? It’s pretty much exactly what you describe wanting to do, except being a paid service.

 

[RedundancyTanner]

I will check it out because I have not been pleased with the layout of other digital logbooks. I created my own digital logbook using Apple Numbers, it's basically a facsimile of my real life log book.

Awesome! If you have any questions or feedback I'd love to hear it!

The logbook itself is almost entirely customizable. You can reorder, add, and hide columns you don't want or need. And there's a few different UI options you can choose from that will change how you log. Stepper, Date Picker, Text field, Toggle, etc

I use this to create a printable back up that is clearer to read. I print once a year on 11x17 paper to put in a tabloid size binder. It would be nice if a digital log book could print/PDF in various traditional logbook layouts (ASA for example).

Printing is on the short list of things to add. But it's a bit more difficult with everything being customizable.

It also would be nice that the App was formatted (able to use a keyboard and mouse) to work on the MAC OS too (Desktop).

It should work fine with a keyboard and mouse connected. But in about 2-3 weeks there will an update to support native macOS and visionOS

 

[sarangan]

Are you including digital signature capability for training flights and endorsements? If not, something like that has been around for decades. Before moving to MyFlightBook almost 20 years ago (I can’t believe it’s been that long), I was using a DIY database I started in DOS in the mid-1990s

Haha, I am still using my DIY spreadsheet, not quite 1990's but close.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

The wheel is always being reinvented. - Why bother making a digital logbook? Papers worked fine for hundred of years!

I think you've misunderstood eric. @EricBe is the guy who runs my flight book. He's telling you his code is open source so rather than starting from scratch why don't you leverage what he has built and put your interface on top of it.

 

[cowman]

So I had this idea but I'm pretty rusty with coding and I've got too many other things going on to really dive into it. It would be really nice if there was a simple utility to convert between logbooks. Most of the electronic logbooks support exporting/importing as a csv or similar but the formats are all over the place. I managed to convert mine using some excel tricks but it would be nice to be able to just download/convert/upload rather than have to do that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Haha, I am still using my DIY spreadsheet, not quite 1990's but close.

Unless one is using it as the only logbook and required digital signing, there’s not much reason to move on from that.

In my case, it wasn’t a spreadsheet. It was a database application I wrote, ultimately ported to Access. Every time there was a security upgrade, I lost functionality so I stared looking for another platform. MFB was the second I tried. I liked it and it’s only gotten better.

 

[172andyou]

This is probably one of the biggest points actually.

I don't have access to your data in the app. I don't collect your data in the app. I can not access your data in the app. I do not want your data.

So your main selling point is 70% of the reason I use a elog? Now I have to manage backups myself and that's a benefit?

The other 30% is that my elog is foreflight and it doesn't get much easier to create a new entry than clicking the "approve" button after the flight has already been recorded.

 

[sarangan]

Unless one is using it as the only logbook and required digital signing, there’s not much reason to move on from that.

In my case, it wasn’t a spreadsheet. It was a database application I wrote, ultimately ported to Access. Every time there was a security upgrade, I lost functionality so I stared looking for another platform. MFB was the second I tried. I liked it and it’s only gotten better.

Very true. But I get skeptical about any vendor-provided service for keeping important stuff. I've lived long enough to have seen services disappear taking out whatever I had in it. Even walmart - I had bought some digital music - but a few years later they weren't there, the whole service had been discontinued. I'm sure they sent emails about it, but who has time for reading those emails?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Very true. But I get skeptical about any vendor-provided service for keeping important stuff. I've lived long enough to have seen services disappear taking out whatever I had in it. Even walmart - I had bought some digital music - but a few years later they weren't there, the whole service had been discontinued. I'm sure they sent emails about it, but who has time for reading those emails?

Agreed. That's one reason I chose what I did. You can download your MyFlightbook data manually whenever you want. With a small annual donation, it gets sent to the cloud of your choice daily. The only thing you lose is digital signatures, which you probably don't have with a home-grown system anyway. As an additional backup, I "print" my logbook to PDF at the end of each year.

 

[172andyou]

Agreed. That's one reason I chose what I did. You can download your MyFlightbook data manually whenever you want. With a small annual donation, it gets sent to the cloud of your choice daily.

Thanks for mentioning that. It immediately sounded like a good idea and I was happy to find out foreflight has a similar feature. Just turned on an automated monthly email with a CSV of my log.

For other foreflight users, on the web it's in Logbook->Settings->Auto export.

 

[RedundancyTanner]

So your main selling point is 70% of the reason I use a elog? Now I have to manage backups myself and that's a benefit?

The other 30% is that my elog is foreflight and it doesn't get much easier to create a new entry than clicking the "approve" button after the flight has already been recorded.

I would say the main selling point is it's easy to use, and it's current.

I think privacy is going to be something people start to expect again from the digital products they use. I think people are starting to see the effects of AI and how their data is being used against them.

It's also possible to design software that's privacy focused without requiring extra work from the user. For example, each flight/endorsement automatically generates an email when you save. 1 tap you have a backup without sharing your personal data with a 3rd party. - That's just one example.

 

[RedundancyTanner]

I think you've misunderstood eric. @EricBe is the guy who runs my flight book. He's telling you his code is open source so rather than starting from scratch why don't you leverage what he has built and put your interface on top of it.

I understood him. I thought he was a bit dismissive. He reinvented the same wheel, which is what I was trying to point out.

So I had this idea but I'm pretty rusty with coding and I've got too many other things going on to really dive into it. It would be really nice if there was a simple utility to convert between logbooks. Most of the electronic logbooks support exporting/importing as a csv or similar but the formats are all over the place. I managed to convert mine using some excel tricks but it would be nice to be able to just download/convert/upload rather than have to do that.

It's ETL. It's not hard, but it's boring and rather tedious. And since the data is critical has to be well tested.

ForeFlight exports 1 spreadsheet with 2 tables in it. One of those tables has about 50 fixed fields, as well as an unknown number of customizable fields of any type.
MyFlightBook exports everything as a CSV, but has 800+ specific fields.
Mine exports as a JSON where the column name and type is 100% customizable.

 

[EricBe]

I understood him. I thought he was a bit dismissive. He reinvented the same wheel, which is what I was trying to point out.

My apologies, I didn't mean to be dismissive - I sincerely was asking why you were starting from scratch instead of building on existing open source. (Oh, and in 2006 when I started this, I wasn't reinventing anything because I couldn't find any cloud-based logbooks at all...it's the norm today, of course.)

 

[RedundancyTanner]

I sincerely was asking why you were starting from scratch instead of building on existing open source.

There's a few reasons. Mainly financial, but also technical and ideological.

It's never been a good idea to build a product on top of someone else's. Especially if it's something you can do on your own. When you do, you're limited to their technical and business decisions, which could change at anytime. Leaving you unable to support your customers in the ways you have been. And with something as simple as a logbook, why take that unnecessary risk?


Ideologically we have different approaches.

Your approach has been to have the community build an open source supplemental database to support the logbook. While also strictly managing the fields a user can use. The pros of this approach is you have large supplemental database filled with tons of information that wouldn't be available otherwise. While the con is the individual user has less control over how their logbook looks, feels, and functions.

My approach is to let the user do whatever they want, however they want. Everything but the date field is customizable. And the supplemental database is a combination of FAA data, and their own previous logs. The pros are the users have freedom to make their logbook look and function in a way that works best for them. The cons are the user has freedom, which makes my job a lot harder.

I think both approaches are valid and provide the same service in 2 entirely different ways.

My apologies, I didn't mean to be dismissive - (Oh, and in 2006 when I started this, I wasn't reinventing anything because I couldn't find any cloud-based logbooks at all...it's the norm today, of course.)

You reinvented the logbook, too.

It doesn't matter if it's paper, digital, or not-yet-cloud-based. You took something that already existed, and improved upon it. Which is the basis of the human existence. To continually improve, experiment, and compete.

There seems to be this idea in online aviation spaces that "X already exists so why bother doing the same thing differently?", particularly when it comes to software. - And I get it. All the technology is just a supplementary convenience that made things easier. And I don't think anyone wanted to be a pilot to be on a computer.

So with you having done the same thing, I thought it was odd that you would lean into that ideology as well. I don't think you had any negative intentions. So no worries there, but it is a rather problematic ideology that reenforces the belief that there shouldn't be improvement and competition. And that belief only benefits the primary players in the space. - Not the people using the products.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My approach is to let the user do whatever they want, however they want. Everything but the date field is customizable.

Now I'm dying to see what this thing looks like from database design, UI and reporting standpoints. I can get legitimate currency and 8710 reporting information based on the regs, while entering whatever I want in whatever field I want to create. Sounds fantastic. Since you are already using it, how about a video showing it in action?

 

[RedundancyTanner]

Now I'm dying to see what this thing looks like from database design, UI and reporting standpoints. I can get legitimate currency and 8710 reporting information based on the regs, while entering whatever I want in whatever field I want to create. Sounds fantastic. Since you are already using it, how about a video showing it in action?

Yeah thats why it's a pro and a con. Can it go sideways? Yeah. Is there a default provided format? Yeah. Will most people edit that? Probably not.

I trust the user. I trust they know what they're doing. This logbook is closer to a DIY spreadsheet than what a traditional digital logbook is expected to be. Some people will like that, others won't.

Here's the database layout. You can see the UI in the images above, or download the app. It's free to try and there's no account signup or anything. There's no reporting functionality yet other than summing flight times.

{
    "flight" : {
        "_0" : {
            "date" : Date,
            "endorsement" : {
                "date" : Date,
                "instructorCertificateExpirationDate" : Date,
                "instructorCertificateNumber" : String,
                "instructorFirstName" : String,
                "instructorLastName" : String,
                "instructorMiddleName" : String,
                "pilotFirstName" : String,
                "pilotLastName" : String,
                "pilotMiddleName" : String,
                "signature" : Data,
                "statement" : String,
                "title" : String,
                "uuid" : UUID
            },
            "sections" : [
                {
                "interfaces" : [
                    {
                    "entries" : [
                        {
                        "abbreviation" : String,
                        "airport" : String,
                        "approach" : String,
                        "date" : Date,
                        "isOn" : Bool,
                        "label" : String,
                        "landing" : String,
                        "runway" : String,
                        "seconds" : Double,
                        "sortOrder" : Int,
                        "stepper" : Int,
                        "surface" : String,
                        "textField" : String
                        }
                    ],
                    "interface" : String,
                    "label" : String,
                    "sortOrder" : Int
                    },
                ],
                "label" : String,
                "sortOrder" : Int
                },
            ],
            "uuid" : UUID
        }
    }
}

 

[EricBe]

There's a few reasons. Mainly financial, but also technical and ideological.

It's never been a good idea to build a product on top of someone else's. Especially if it's something you can do on your own. When you do, you're limited to their technical and business decisions, which could change at anytime. Leaving you unable to support your customers in the ways you have been. And with something as simple as a logbook, why take that unnecessary risk?

Ideologically we have different approaches.

Fair 'nuff.