Log my time as safety pilot ?!

[odachoo]

I'm going to fly with a friend on a XC flight, one leg he under the hood and me as safety pilot and the other way on return. My question is how should I log this? on the leg that I'm under the hood, it will be PIC, simulated IMC, and need to put his name as safety pilot on the log. When I'm safety pilot is that enough to log only as PIC ? no need to mention his name that he was under the hood ?

 

[flyingron]

You log PIC, simulated instrument time (not IMC), and log his name as safety pilot (along with the type of each instrument approach executed).

If you are safety pilot while he is flying, you may log PIC time ONLY if you are the pilot in command. Otherwise you can (arguably) just log second in command time. It's not clear what good that is. You're not required to log anything. You are not required to list who you are safety plot for, but it might help you later on.

 

[PBristolJr]

When you are the safety pilot you log only the time he was under the hood. If the flight was 1.5 hours and he was under the hood for 1.2, you log 1.2 PIC. As the safety pilot you can't log XC time either.

 

[Alexb2000]

All these safety pilot threads really test my ability to keep it zipped.

That's all.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Otherwise you can (arguably) just log second in command time. It's not clear what good that is. You're not required to log anything. You are not required to list who you are safety plot for, but it might help you later on.

It is good for total time. And watching how other people fly does have its benefits.

 

[Captain]

Never logged a minute of safety pilot time and proud of it. Of course I did log the CFI, CFII, and MEI time...

 

[frfly172]

I have logged safety pilot time,pay back for a friend who safety pilots for me.

 

[JeffDG]

Assuming the Pilot Flying (PF) flys the entire time and the Safety Pilot (SP) acts as PIC:

PF:
PIC: Entire Time
Sim Inst: Hood Time
XC: Entire time

SP:
PIC: Hood time
XC: Zero

 

[JBrown243]

Assuming the Pilot Flying (PF) flys the entire time and the Safety Pilot (SP) acts as PIC:

PF:
PIC: Entire Time
Sim Inst: Hood Time
XC: Entire time

SP:
PIC: Hood time
XC: Zero

This is what I was thinking

 

[airdale]

I log Safety Pilot time as SIC. While it is admittedly legal for the two pilots to agree that the Safety Pilot will act as PIC so he can log it that way, I think that is completely bogus and would personally be ashamed to do it. In no way is the Safety Pilot in command of anything. He's not flying, he's not making decisions about the flight, and if the left seater PF ends up talking to the NTSB or the FAA, I don't think the "faux PIC" status of the right seater will be considered relevant. YMMV, of course.

 

[dtuuri]

...I think that is completely bogus and would personally be ashamed to do it.

Bravo! Having a safety pilot dates back to the 1940s--way further back than any notion of logging time while doing it, which is rather recent on the FAA's glacier speed timeline. I had hoped sequestration would begin in the Chief Counsel's office to prevent more of this insanity.

dtuuri

 

[Palmpilot]

I had hoped sequestration would begin in the Chief Counsel's office to prevent more of this insanity.

I was wishing it had begun with the folks who were tasked with searching people at train stations, concert venues, and general aviation airports.

 

[bobmrg]

IMHO it is entirely worthless.

Bob Gardner

 

[jordane93]

IMHO it is entirely worthless.

Bob Gardner

not if your trying to keep costs down

 

[Alexb2000]

I have about 2 million airline miles. I always look for traffic when I'm sitting on the window. Sooooo... how many hours should i log? :wink2:

 

[ChitDisturber]

Never logged a minute of safety pilot time and proud of it. Of course I did log the CFI, CFII, and MEI time...

That is the silliest thing I've heard all day

 

[Captain]

Must not have heard much today. Logging PIC as a pax is pretty silly.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Must not have heard much today. Logging PIC as a pax is pretty silly.

It is silly if you have some heavy chip on your shoulder. Bottom line is that the FAA says as long as certain procedural elements are in line, it is legitimate.

Now, the caveat is that a guy who shows up to his logbook review and job interview with half of his PIC time as safety pilot is probably going to be at a disadvantage competing with others who have PIC time hauling checks, skydivers student pilots or banners around.

 

[poadeleted20]

In no way is the Safety Pilot in command of anything. He's not flying, he's not making decisions about the flight,

In that case, he's not the PIC and cannot legally log PIC time. But the fact that he's not doing the flying is irrelevant, unless you'd also say an airline captain should not log PIC time while the F/O is flying the plane.

and if the left seater PF ends up talking to the NTSB or the FAA, I don't think the "faux PIC" status of the right seater will be considered relevant.

Where the right seater is actually exercising final authority over the flight (necessary, in this case, to log PIC time), the relevant case law suggests otherwise -- even if the right seater isn't acting as safety pilot.

 

[poadeleted20]

It is silly if you have some heavy chip on your shoulder. Bottom line is that the FAA says as long as certain procedural elements are in line, it is legitimate.

Concur.

Now, the caveat is that a guy who shows up to his logbook review and job interview with half of his PIC time as safety pilot is probably going to be at a disadvantage competing with others who have PIC time hauling checks, skydivers student pilots or banners around.

The airlines will tell you in the instructions for the application what to put in the PIC time block on their application. Doing anything but exactly what they say is a good way to have your application rejected. But that is irrelevant to what you put in the logbook you use to keep track of aeronautical experience for FAA purposes IAW 14 CFR 61.51.

 

[ChitDisturber]

In that case, he's not the PIC and cannot legally log PIC time. But the fact that he's not doing the flying is irrelevant, unless you'd also say an airline captain should not log PIC time while the F/O is flying the plane.

Where the right seater is actually exercising final authority over the flight (necessary, in this case, to log PIC time), the relevant case law suggests otherwise -- even if the right seater isn't acting as safety pilot.

Holy chit balls batman!

....I think I agree with Ron on something, now to go take a cold shower

 

[Captain]

I get its legal. But it's also legal for me NOT to log I single solitary second of that worthless time.

If I was on a hiring board and a second of it crossed the desk presented as legitimate time I'd have some further questions. Log away though if you like. FAA says its good time so I guess it's good.

Am I a better pilot at 300 hours logging this way than someone with 300 and 150 of it safety pilot? Yes, unequivocally.

 

[ChitDisturber]

I get its legal. But it's also legal for me NOT to log I single solitary second of that worthless time.

If I was on a hiring board and a second of it crossed the desk presented as legitimate time I'd have some further questions. Log away though if you like. FAA says its good time so I guess it's good.

Am I a better pilot at 300 hours logging this way than someone with 300 and 150 of it safety pilot? Yes, unequivocally.

I'd wager flying across the country with another pilot will build far more valuable experience then just flying as sole PIC within a 100nm circle from your home drome (how many time builders fly).

If we are only logging high value time, I hope all that short range CAVU 172/152/PA28 hamburger hopping time didn't make it in your log ether

 

[Captain]

Why compare XC with someone vs. local flights solo? What's wrong with XC solo?

And to answer your question, all the time I flew the plane went into my logbook. None of the time I watched someone else fly did unless I was teaching them how to do it.

 

[ChitDisturber]

Why compare XC with someone vs. local flights solo? What's wrong with XC solo?

And to answer your question, all the time I flew the plane went into my logbook. None of the time I watched someone else fly did unless I was teaching them how to do it.

Local flights???

Did you not read what I posted or do you not know what constitutes a x-country?

then just flying as sole PIC within a 100nm circle from your home drome (how many time builders fly).

The point I made was time solo can be less valuable then saftey pilot time AND vise versa.

I'd value 50 hrs going from CA to NY with a saftey pilot WELL OVER 100hrs of just flying within one state or two.


Also you said one thing right

. None of the time I watched someone else fly

When acting as the non-hooded saftey pilot, YOU DON'T WATCH THE OTHER GUY, that's how accidents happen, you WATCH OUTSIDE!
You're responsible for situational awareness and collision/terrain avoidance.

If your just staring at the other guy youre not acting as saftey pilot and you're being kinda creepy.

 

[Captain]

Local flights???

Did you not read what I posted or do you not know what constitutes a x-country?



The point I made was time solo can be less valuable then saftey pilot time AND vise versa.

I'd value 50 hrs going from CA to NY with a saftey pilot WELL OVER 100hrs of just flying within one state or two.


Also you said one thing right

When acting as the non-hooded saftey pilot, YOU DON'T WATCH THE OTHER GUY, that's how accidents happen, you WATCH OUTSIDE!
You're responsible for situational awareness and collision/terrain avoidance.

If your just staring at the other guy youre not acting as saftey pilot and you're being kinda creepy.

Yeah. I think we all get it. Log what you like, I really don't care.

 

[JeffDG]

Yeah. I think we all get it. Log what you like, I really don't care.

So long as you can look down your nose at people, you're happy.

 

[Brad Z]

IMHO it is entirely worthless.

Bob Gardner

IMHO it's quite valuable, depending on how it's done. Safety pilot time is about as close as most GA pilots get to two pilot CRM experience. Two pilots, each with their own responsibility to ensure a safe outcome to the flight. Some of my most valuable flight experiences had nothing to do with manipulating the controls. Either way, FAA allows it so it counts.

 

[Planeologist]

IMHO it's quite valuable, depending on how it's done. Safety pilot time is about as close as most GA pilots get to two pilot CRM experience. Two pilots, each with their own responsibility to ensure a safe outcome to the flight. Some of my most valuable flight experiences had nothing to do with manipulating the controls. Either way, FAA allows it so it counts.

I agree. There is a high CRM value. The safety pilot is much more than a passenger. He is the eyes outside and inside as well, not just looking for traffic, but cross checking all actions of the pilot under the hood and maintaining the overall situational awareness. I am not a CFI yet, but I find that flying both roles is extremely helpful if done correctly. If you're just sitting on your hands or consider yourself a passenger, you have missed the point entirely.

 

[Captain]

So long as you can look down your nose at people, you're happy.

It's not about looking down my nose.

If a safety pilot logs an hour here or there then so what. But there are schools out there that build that into the program. Guys share PIC and both log it calling it safety pilot and I guarantee they take the foggles off enroute.

Even if they leave them on a guy representing 80 hours total ME and half of it is safety pilot is Not of equal experience as a guy who flew a full 80. It's absurd. Should we allow them to log MSFS? How about when they just think about airplanes? Screw it, make everyone an ATP. Mail out the certs to every citizen. Then we can all look down our noses at all the pilots.

 

[Sam D]

It's not about looking down my nose.

If a safety pilot logs an hour here or there then so what. But there are schools out there that build that into the program. Guys share PIC and both log it calling it safety pilot and I guarantee they take the foggles off enroute.

Even if they leave them on a guy representing 80 hours total ME and half of it is safety pilot is Not of equal experience as a guy who flew a full 80. It's absurd. Should we allow them to log MSFS? How about when they just think about airplanes? Screw it, make everyone an ATP. Mail out the certs to every citizen. Then we can all look down our noses at all the pilots.

Seems like one could make a similar argument about hours flown behind an autopilot.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

If I was hiring and someone came in with high saftey hours claimed rather than actually flying the aircraft, I would thank them for stopping by and after they left throw their application in the trash. I agree, it's absurd , and one of the very few times I've seen anyone defend one of the absurd decisions the FAA comes up with.

 

[bobmrg]

IMHO it's quite valuable, depending on how it's done. Safety pilot time is about as close as most GA pilots get to two pilot CRM experience. Two pilots, each with their own responsibility to ensure a safe outcome to the flight. Some of my most valuable flight experiences had nothing to do with manipulating the controls. Either way, FAA allows it so it counts.

Brad (and planeologist), I do not question that there is value in being safety pilot....my point was that logged safety pilot time has no value. At job interviews it will be ignored; it doesn't count toward higher ratings UNLESS someone is anal enough to log those dribs and drabs of time when the pilot flying is wearing a hood. As a chief pilot/chief instructor/pilot examiner I would view those entries with a jaundiced eye.

Bob

 

[JeffDG]

Seems like one could make a similar argument about hours flown behind an autopilot.

Yep, all that turbine time...flown at airlines where the opspec requires maximum use of autopilot amounts to what, about .1 of actually flying the plane, right?

 

[poadeleted20]

...it doesn't count toward higher ratings...

The FAA's regulations (including 61.129 and 61.159) say otherwise.

UNLESS someone is anal enough to log those dribs and drabs of time when the pilot flying is wearing a hood.

Obviously if it isn't logged, it doesn't count, but I'm not convinced that logging all the time one is legally permitted to log IAW 61.51 makes one "anal".

 

[airdale]

UNLESS someone is anal enough to log those dribs and drabs of time when the pilot flying is wearing a hood.

I dunno. Almost all times I have flown as safety pilot the hood has gone down and stayed down except for a very few minutes at the end of each approach and when landing at the end of the last approach. I usually end up logging a few tenths of an hour less than the PIC logs. As I said previously I log it as SIC. I agree totally with the many who have said it is valuable time. It is just not PIC time. To log it as PIC is IMHO intellectually bogus even though it is admittedly completely legal per FAA regs.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Seems like one could make a similar argument about hours flown behind an autopilot.

Of course, but there is no column in logbooks for time hand flying vs autopilot.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I dunno. Almost all times I have flown as safety pilot the hood has gone down and stayed down except for a very few minutes at the end of each approach and when landing at the end of the last approach. I usually end up logging a few tenths of an hour less than the PIC logs. As I said previously I log it as SIC. I agree totally with the many who have said it is valuable time. It is just not PIC time. To log it as PIC is IMHO intellectually bogus even though it is admittedly completely legal per FAA regs.

So is it bogus for the left seater in a 121 outfit to log PIC time for the legs the FO flies?

 

[Fearless Tower]

If a safety pilot logs an hour here or there then so what. But there are schools out there that build that into the program. Guys share PIC and both log it calling it safety pilot and I guarantee they take the foggles off enroute.

And that is where the market comes in.

Guys doing those kinds of time building programs where two pilots get PIC time in a King Air with an instructor in the back aren't going straight into the right seat at Southwest. They are taking crap paying jobs at regionals or some job flying a BE99 that requires ATP mins and pays less than $30k/year

If some pilot with more quality time really wants those bottom feeder jobs, they will certainly have a competitive edge in hiring.

 

[airdale]

So is it bogus for the left seater in a 121 outfit to log PIC time for the legs the FO flies?

Nope, because he is really the pilot in command, with the responsibilities that entails. That's why he is called "Captain" and the other guy is called "First Officer." I see the safety pilot situation totally differently.

I have had situations ASEL where I let a pilot right-seater fly for a while. In those cases, I still logged PIC because I was really PIC. Maybe the difference is subtle or nonexistent to you. Fine. It is not to me.

It's my logbook, I can log safety pilot time as I choose. You have your own logbook and can put whatever you like into it. The OP can put whatever he likes into his logbook as well, regardless of what any of us think.