Log books for checkride

jhoyt

jhoyt

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Jim
Any opinions out there for what we need to bring from the logs? Our club plane mechanic wants to give me xerox of last annual instead of actual books. Is this kosher for the exam? Also, would think need good documentation of all inspections--eg transponder, instruments--and also ADs.

Ideas?
 
I always brought the physical logs for my checkrides, at the very least it makes the examiner feel more comfortable! The FAA says you're supposed to be able to show these logs upon request, the checkride is a good time to show you're familiar with that requirement.
 
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Most DPEs I know will want you to show the actual logbooks. Photocopy wouldn't cut it.
Your mileage may vary.
 
The examiner has the right to ask for any legally require documents for the plane. This includes; POH, maintenance logs, equipment list, airworthy cert, and registration. Good chance they will not ask to see them, but at least know where they are if they do.
 
Tell the mechanic the examiner has told you he expects the original logs. You can fly the damn plane, does he not trust you with the original logbook? :p
 
jhoyt said:
Any opinions out there for what we need to bring from the logs? Our club plane mechanic wants to give me xerox of last annual instead of actual books. Is this kosher for the exam?
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I suspect that would be at the examiner's discretion -- and this is definitely one where asking forgiveness is not better than asking permission unless you don't kind having the test terminated after you've paid the fee and having to pay for another test (not to mention a possible Notice of Disapproval). Call the examiner ahead of time.

Also, would think need good documentation of all inspections--eg transponder, instruments--and also ADs.
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That is correct. In fact, the PTS specifically requires the applicant to show how s/he has determined that the aircraft is legally airworthy, including that all applicable AD's are complied with. Can't do that without an AD list.

Ideas?
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Get the club president to explain the facts of life to the club mechanic.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Why is a photocopy unacceptable?
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Do you think the DPE will accept a photocopy of your drivers license or medical? Likely not. Will he possibly be OK with a photocopied logbook? Maybe but not likely and why risk a discontinuance or disapproval. Unless you got it ore approved ahead of time turn up with the whole package of original logs.

When I did my checkride the club mechanic sat down with me the morning of the checkride and showed me all the required inspections, which we tabbed off to show the DPE when requested during the exam. Naturally they're quite protective of all that documentation but if they don't trust you to hold onto it for a few hours then why are they letting you fly the airplane!?!?
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Do you think the DPE will accept a photocopy of your drivers license or medical? Likely not. Will he possibly be OK with a photocopied logbook? Maybe but not likely and why risk a discontinuance or disapproval. Unless you got it ore approved ahead of time turn up with the whole package of original logs.

When I did my checkride the club mechanic sat down with me the morning of the checkride and showed me all the required inspections, which we tabbed off to show the DPE when requested during the exam. Naturally they're quite protective of all that documentation but if they don't trust you to hold onto it for a few hours then why are they letting you fly the airplane!?!?
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We are talking about logbooks, not certificates.

There is nothing that says a photocopy of a logbook is unacceptable.
 
I needed all three logbooks for the plane when I took my PP and IR rides. Airframe, engine and prop. This for a simple C-172N. The club had no problem providing them for me to take with me for the rides.
 
Sometimes the examiner will just want to see that you brought them. Other times he will want you to show him the last annual, the last ELT battery check, the last transponder check, etc. So, he will be expecting the full set.
 
I did my private in a school plane and the DPE met myself and the instructor at the school and he did want to see the real logs.

I did my instrument ride in my Cirrus but it was down in Vero Beach (I'm out of JAX) I called the guy and asked him PDF logs on a thumb drive we're acceptable - he was good with it.

He did have me show him on the PDFs the last IFR cert
 
SkyDog58 said:
Sometimes the examiner will just want to see that you brought them. Other times he will want you to show him the last annual, the last ELT battery check, the last transponder check, etc. So, he will be expecting the full set.
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For a PP ride, the maintenance records are required. See the Applicant's Checklist in the PTS:
Aircraft Maintenance Records:​
Logbook Record of Airworthiness Inspections and AD Compliance
​
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and Area I, Task B:

2. Locating and explaining—
a. airworthiness directives.
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b. compliance records.​
c. maintenance/inspection requirements.​
d. appropriate record keeping.​
​
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Without the aircraft maintenance records (including AD list), you can't do that, and if an examiner "just want to see that you brought them", that examiner isn't doing his/her job properly. Note that if you do a practical test with the FAA, the standard procedure is for an Airworthiness Inspector to examine the aircraft's maintenance records while the Ops Inspector is conducting the ground portion of the test with you.​
 
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Well, for both my PPL and IFR check rides I had several conversions with my DPE ahead of time.

Answer is simple...ask the DPE ahead of time if he will accept copies. If you do not have confirmation that it is acceptable, I would not risk a discontinuation without the actual logs. You will be paying the recheck fee...not the mechanic.

The argument to having the actual logs is that part of the process as a PPL is the ability to locate the required checks in the actual logs to determine if a plane is airworthy to fly. A mechanic's word is does not qualify as airworthiness.
 
Shawn said:
The argument to having the actual logs is that part of the process as a PPL is the ability to locate the required checks in the actual logs to determine if a plane is airworthy to fly.
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Where does the PTS state "actual" logs versus a digital copy? If an applicant had digital copies that are acceptable to the examiner, could he not go through those copies and verify the aircraft is airworthy?

Shawn said:
A mechanic's word is does not qualify as airworthiness.
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I don't understand that statement. Was it implied that someone should just get a verbal from a mechanic to establish airworthiness? :dunno:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Where does the PTS state "actual" logs versus a digital copy? If an applicant had digital copies that are acceptable to the examiner, could he not go through those copies and verify the aircraft is airworthy?



I don't understand that statement. Was it implied that someone should just get a verbal from a mechanic to establish airworthiness? :dunno:
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That's a very fair question... I mean, I have all my logs PDF.. if something happened and they were lost (paper logs) I still have a backup. But what if I needed my plane that only had digital logs - what would a DPE do?

Every day more and more things become digital so why should this be any different?
 
I guess I got lucky - The DPE owned the FBO, so I took the test in one of his planes. He asked me if I knew where the logs were kept to verify airworthyness, I showed him, and he said good job, on to the next item.
 
My checkrides:

ASEL - Examiner just looked at the logs briefly. He did not ask me to show or explain any of it to him. Though this could have been due to the fact that he knew I was an A&P/IA and assumed I had that knowledge.

AMEL - Examiner had me show him the last annual and asked a couple of quick questions regarding maintenance records.

ASES - Examiner had me show him the last annual, altimeter & transponder checks and the ELT battery date.
 
jhoyt said:
Any opinions out there for what we need to bring from the logs? Our club plane mechanic wants to give me xerox of last annual instead of actual books. Is this kosher for the exam? Also, would think need good documentation of all inspections--eg transponder, instruments--and also ADs.

Ideas?
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I would say be able to show all the required checks, plus ADs, and STCs. Is it kosher for the exam? I'd say call up the DPE and ask what he will accept. But honestly, better to have them then have xerox copies and risk accidentally forgetting to have a xerox of one of the inspections. If the mechanic refuses, just tell him you are ultimately responsible for making sure the aircraft is airworthy.
 
During my check-ride I got the fairly standard "show me how you know our airplane is legal to fly today?" question.

For the airplane we were using there is a folder that rides in the plane that has W&B detail and some other items including a printed spreadsheet showing all the required inspections and when they were last performed / are next due. I initially used this page to walk the DPE through the various items. He did, however, still want me to pull out the actual original maintenance log books and show him the actual sign-offs with the signature of the mechanic. Thankfully these were provided to me for use on the day of the checkride.
 
EminiTrader said:
That's a very fair question... I mean, I have all my logs PDF.. if something happened and they were lost (paper logs) I still have a backup. But what if I needed my plane that only had digital logs - what would a DPE do?

Every day more and more things become digital so why should this be any different?
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It's not. Digital copies will suffice as records.

For check rides, the examiner can specify, but it's kinda silly.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Where does the PTS state "actual" logs versus a digital copy? If an applicant had digital copies that are acceptable to the examiner, could he not go through those copies and verify the aircraft is airworthy?

I don't understand that statement. Was it implied that someone should just get a verbal from a mechanic to establish airworthiness? :dunno:
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The OP was taking about a few photo copes of a few pages of a log book of specific inspections, not complete digital logs.

My intent of that statement was not to say that digital logs or even copies are not acceptable, but rather part of the process of a pilot being able to determine the airworthiness of an airplane is the ability of a pilot to look at a log book as a whole (physical or digital) and determine for himself that all of the airworthiness requirements have been met as opposed to looking at a few photo copies or simply relaying on the verbal assurance of a mechanic that the cherry picked copies of a few pages are all the information that a pilot needs.

Trust but verify.
 
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Shawn said:
The OP was taking about a few photo copes of a few pages of a log book, not complete digital logs.

My intent of that statement was not to say that digital logs are not acceptable, but rather part of the process of a pilot being able to determine the airworthiness of an airplane is the ability of a pilot to look at a log book as a whole and determine for himself that all of the airworthiness requirements have been met as opposed to looking at a few photo copies or simply relaying on the verbal assurance of a mechanic that the copies are all the information that a pilot needs.
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Why would you need the "whole logbook" to determine airworthiness?

All you need is the last annual inspection, AD listing and copy of the altimeter and pitot/static check.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Why would you need the "whole logbook" to determine airworthiness?
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Because part of the process...at least how I was taught...was how to IDENTIFY and find those critical inspections within a log book as a pilot whose responsibility it is to determine the airworthiness of the aircraft.

No you do not need the logs since the plane started flying, but every pilot should be able to take any current log book and find the recent inspections to verify the airworthiness of that aircraft...not relying on a mechanic to just spoon feed that specific info to you. My DPE wanted to know that I knew and understood what the information I was looking for and how to find it to meet that requirement.
 
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Great advice from all. Checkride got postponed so I've got some time to get the logs more organized. Didn't sit well to just take a few xerox copies. All the info was there but handwritten and not too professional. I just felt like these are the first things the examiner sees when they sit down for the oral exam portion, and might give wrong impression.
 
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