Liberty xl2

If you're going to poll PoA on the various aircraft you're considering buying, it might be better to consolidate it all in a single thread.

Presumably you're looking at N999KE on TAP. If that's the one, you're running to exactly the same problem as the Cheetah you were looking at: ridiculously low hours over a very large number of years. 48 hours TT and SNEW on a 2007 bird is a little eyebrow-raising, especially with a prop that is 18 hours SPOH. What happened 18 prop hours ago that required overhaul of presumably an essentially brand-new prop? When did that happen? Why hasn't it been flying since? The description reads like a real-estate listing and doesn't answer any of those questions. Perhaps the logbooks would offer more insight.

To echo the comments in the other thread: there are no screaming deals in aviation, and there's nothing more expensive than a cheap airplane. Maybe with a solid bore-scoping, oil analysis, and very, very thorough pre-buy you might have found the proverbial barn-find. Possible, perhaps.

On the other hand, it's an aircraft of which there were only 132 examples ever built. Makes me wonder about parts availability and community support. Based on some quick searching, it appears that it's also a certified aircraft, rather than an LSA. If you could take it experimental, that might alleviate some of the parts concerns.
 
If it is in fact N999KE, it was acquired by the folks at Rebuild Rescue (YouTube). If their after video actions match what they claim, it should be in good condition. No direct knowledge of the product they put out, but some of what I have seen in their videos make me shake my head......................
 
Jim B said:
Any thoughts on owning a Liberty xl2?
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Spare parts are gonna be an issue. They only made a little over a hundred of 'em. Engine, prop, avionics, brakes should be off the shelf, but if you ding the airframe... Might ask the insurance company too. They charge for uniqueness because lightly damaged aircraft may need to be totaled due to a lack of parts availability.
 
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AvNavCom said:
If you're going to poll PoA on the various aircraft you're considering buying, it might be better to consolidate it all in a single thread.
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I agree with this and other comments about the aviation market being efficient. The popular aircraft are popular for good reasons. Same with the expensive aircraft and the cheap ones. There are reasons.

What is your mission and maybe the group can point you at likely candidates. The reality is that unless your mission is a real edge case which leads you to a unique and under-appreciated aircraft, you get what you pay for.
 
kyleb said:
Spare parts are gonna be an issue. They only made a little over a hundred of 'em. Engine, prop, avionics, brakes should be off the shelf, but if you ding the airframe... Might ask the insurance company too. They charge for uniqueness because lightly damaged aircraft may need to be totaled due to a lack of parts availability.
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Good point!
 
kyleb said:
I agree with this and other comments about the aviation market being efficient. The popular aircraft are popular for good reasons. Same with the expensive aircraft and the cheap ones. There are reasons.

What is your mission and maybe the group can point you at likely candidates. The reality is that unless your mission is a real edge case which leads you to a unique and under-appreciated aircraft, you get what you pay for.
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I’ve noticed that 95% of GA pilots spend most of the day looking at and hanger talking about their planes. I’m not criticizing this because this is the hobby I’m interested in getting involved in. What I am trying to figure out is what Airplane is fun to fly, economically easy to own, can go on short x-country trips if I choose, but is best for flying around in the local area which everyone usually does anyway. I have been doing a lot of research, asking a lot of questions and looking for advice from people who understand what I’m trying to find. I am open to any suggestions. Renting is not an option where I live, and I’m not new to Aviation, just GA.
Thanks
 
Jim B said:
I’ve noticed that 95% of GA pilots spend most of the day looking at and hanger talking about their planes. I’m not criticizing this because this is the hobby I’m interested in getting involved in. What I am trying to figure out is what Airplane is fun to fly, economically easy to own, can go on short x-country trips if I choose, but is best for flying around in the local area which everyone usually does anyway. I have been doing a lot of research, asking a lot of questions and looking for advice from people who understand what I’m trying to find. I am open to any suggestions. Renting is not an option where I live, and I’m not new to Aviation, just GA.
Thanks
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How many people do you want/need to carry and what's your budget?
 
Jim B said:
I’ve noticed that 95% of GA pilots spend most of the day looking at and hanger talking about their planes. I’m not criticizing this because this is the hobby I’m interested in getting involved in. What I am trying to figure out is what Airplane is fun to fly, economically easy to own, can go on short x-country trips if I choose, but is best for flying around in the local area which everyone usually does anyway. I have been doing a lot of research, asking a lot of questions and looking for advice from people who understand what I’m trying to find. I am open to any suggestions. Renting is not an option where I live, and I’m not new to Aviation, just GA.
Thanks
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Your mission is exactly what I had in mind when shopping for a plane and put together a spreadsheet to compare different models. The Ercoupe/Aircoupe models fit the bill and I opted for an Alon A2 Aircoupe based in part on this overview model comparison . I've been 100% happy with my choice, and have taken it from Cali. to Wisconsin (over a few days of course).
 
Maybe a silly question, but why not consider a 150 or 172?
If you've got the budget for the Cheetah you asked about on the other thread, then getting into one of the Cessnas should be no issue at all.

I'd do that before I'd hop into a relatively obscure make/model where, as others have mentioned, parts availability and expertise is going to be hard to come by.
 
For the mission you described, you have no need for speed. Fixed gear and fixed prop will hold down costs a bit. Good planes for your needs would include a Cessna 172/182, a Piper Warrior or Cherokee 180, a Beech Sundowner/Musketeer, or a Grumman Traveler/Cheetah. The Cessnas and Pipers are ubiquitous and finding parts and mechanics will be simpler than the others.

My needs were similar to yours and I bought a Musketeer Custom III (B23). I’ve been very pleased with it.
 
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Half Fast said:
For the mission you described, you have no need for speed. Fixed gear and fixed prop will hold down costs a bit. Good planes for your needs would include a Cessna 172/182, a Piper Warrior or Cherokee 180, a Beech Sundowner/Musketeer, or a Grumman Traveler/Cheetah. The Cessnas and Pipers are ubiquitous and finding parts and mechanics will be simpler than the others.

My needs were similar to yours and I bought a Musketeer Custom III (B23). I’ve been very pleased with it.
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Thanks
 
Jim B said:
fun to fly, economically easy to own, can go on short x-country trips if I choose, but is best for flying around in the local area which everyone usually does anyway.
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I have a blast with my Ercoupe. Low and slow but able to "go the distance" if needed, albeit at a leisurely pace. The former owner of my plane flew it from Ohio to Alaska and back. Mine was affordable and burns about 4.5 gallons per hour cruising the Atlantic beaches of Delaware and the mid-Atlantic. Outstanding visibility with the bubble canopy and fun to fly in warm weather with the canopy open.
Ercoupe-415C-at-SBY-bsp.jpg
 
Beachy said:
I have a blast with my Ercoupe. Low and slow but able to "go the distance" if needed, albeit at a leisurely pace. The former owner of my plane flew it from Ohio to Alaska and back. Mine was affordable and burns about 4.5 gallons per hour cruising the Atlantic beaches of Delaware and the mid-Atlantic. Outstanding visibility with the bubble canopy and fun to fly in warm weather with the canopy open.
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Sounds like what I’m looking for. I’m also looking at a Vans-6A
 
An O320 RV6A with steam gauges would be a smart value buy.

Since this is the point in the thread where everyone recommends the type they personally own... I went for a Cessna 140A. If I had a do-over, for a few dollars more, I should have gotten a 170A. You'll be under budget, which will come in handy when the time comes to nurse that beaut back to health.
 
Beachy said:
I have a blast with my Ercoupe. Low and slow but able to "go the distance" if needed, albeit at a leisurely pace. The former owner of my plane flew it from Ohio to Alaska and back. Mine was affordable and burns about 4.5 gallons per hour cruising the Atlantic beaches of Delaware and the mid-Atlantic. Outstanding visibility with the bubble canopy and fun to fly in warm weather with the canopy open.
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You gonna ask Santa for a cover? ;)
 
Glasair 2 RG. Only 2 seats but 170 knot plane on 7 gals. Easy to work on and very light. Certified for light Aerobatics and well under $120K depending on panel. I spend 95% of the time commuting or flying by myself, if I need more than 2 seats I rent (very rare).
 
I happen to own one of those, I bought back in June, now my plane is grounded because of a "speed sensor" . Let me tell you something. It is an amazing plane to fly, a pushrod system, very little to manage. The one I bought came with aspen MFD and PFD, avidyne GPS and oil filter MOD to relocate it where it can be changed in 5 minutes. The "brand new" plane you are looking at seems like in really good shape but as others mentioned, parts is your issue. This is a FADEC plane which means doesn't have magnetos or even electronic ignition like electroair. The 2 ECUs manage your mixture and ignition for you. My plane came with 3 tubs full of spare parts including 3 ECUs(each ECU is unique to each side, I have 2 unique and 1 is a duplicate) , low voltage harness(connects all sensors and wires to each other , essentially the nervous system of the plane and costs a lot of money if it goes bad)and many other parts that are hard to acquire. one thing this plane didn't come with was a speed sensor. Very few speed sensors out there and they cost a kidney( 8k or so). I'm currently sitting here wondering if i should buy a speed sensor or look into converting it to electroair or magnetos(Fadectomy is what they are calling it, it is in the process of being STCed).

I was in the same exact boat as you are, I put a deposit on a traveler and right before i pick it up, they left it on the ramp in Arkansas and it got hammered with hail, the discount they were giving me was not enough to make a hail damaged plane appealing to me, some how i stumbled across this liberty and I loved it, bought it, flew it 25 hours before the speed sensor went bad. If you can make them and offer and deduct the price of 2 speed sensors and buy them, go for it. Most of the components on this plane don't go bad if you don't mess with it, except the speed sensor, it is above the oil pick up and it sits in heat and a lot of oil around it , which makes it go bad. The sensor itself is sealed in putty that won't hold against the heat for very long. some people have been flying the plane for 15 years and their sensor is fine and many had an issue with it. So I would say the speed sensor is your biggest gotcha. I got a my Liberty for a good price with parts that is if i Decide i don't want it anymore and I part it out, I'll come out on top financially , even before i start parting out just with parts in the tub will cover most of what i paid for the plane...either a newer plane that flies really nice but with very hard to obtain parts, or 1970's plane that you can find parts for and any mechanic can dip into it, those were my options. Would I buy the liberty again, maybe but I would never buy it for 100k for sure, unless it came with all fadec parts as spares or a spare engine. I love flying it, it is a joy to fly, very slow on climb but once up there it will cruise at 130 knots no problem with two full grown adults in it(200lbs, 190lbs and 20 lbs of cargo). I'm currently sitting here reading your post because I'm still not sure how to proceed, do i buy a speed sensor for 8k and pay probably 2k to get it installed, or do i wait for the STC and pay 30k and it becomes like any other IO240 plane and parts are much cheaper and easier to find. or do i convert it to electroair with a field approval, or do i part it out....choices choices, but end of day all I want is to fly and i'm not doing that now which sucks.
 
My thoughts are similar to LibrePilot, though I'm not an owner. The reason I'm not is twofold: the FADEC engine was discontinued and the fuselage life is only 5,000 hours. There's a rumor the life is going to be extended to 10,000 hours, but it's not final. So, for a "cheap" plane with great stats, you're severely life-limited without sinking a lot of cash into it in the future to replace the engine with a completely different setup since FADEC is discontinued, and after 2.5 engine rebuilds, the airframe becomes a lawn ornament. And that future migth be a lot sooner than the hours, because if you don't have a spare FADEC, when it goes out, it's gone.

It's a shame; it seems like a really good plane design. It's obsolescence forced by Liberty going under just means long term it's going to be a hassle at best, really expensive at worst. May as well go experimental, spend the same amount up front, and save a fortune later on.
 
it was extended to 10k hours. Fadec is the problem more than the airframe...honestly no one wants a plane with an aiframe of 10k hours anyway lol....at least not me, end of life or not.
 
LibrePilot said:
it was extended to 10k hours. Fadec is the problem more than the airframe...honestly no one wants a plane with an aiframe of 10k hours anyway lol....at least not me, end of life or not.
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That's good to know at least.

Have y'all found anyone that'll service the FADEC computers yet, if they go out? That was a big one for me; didn't want to have a random failure brick the darned thing!
 
I owned a liberty xl2 was one of my favorite airplanes. Airframe was rated for 10k hours,fire wall blanket 2000 hours. The fadec system has to be overhauled when you do the engine. Composite prop doesn’t hold up in rain . Do your research could end up costing you a ton of money.
 
JVerb said:
That's good to know at least.

Have y'all found anyone that'll service the FADEC computers yet, if they go out? That was a big one for me; didn't want to have a random failure brick the darned thing!
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the computers rarely go bad and no if they go out you most probably need a replacement. The speed sensor is the pain in the butt.
 
Jim B said:
Any thoughts on owning a Liberty xl2?
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I own one and they are a lovely plane to fly, especially if solo and you plan on local flights. Handling is nice and as previously discussed, the climb a little slow 600/min max 1,000/min. IAS is 110-120 kts typically. You will see 130TAS at around 5000'.

The comments re FADEC and speed sensor are valid. That said, I have around 300hrs (500+ TT) and 5 years on mine with no issues whatsoever, well nothing that could not be fixed easily.

I saw the YouTube 'revival' of the aircraft you must be looking at, although I did not note the prop hours anomaly. If the prop was overhauled, could be as simple as someone having started it over stones causing chips. The prop is composite and will be damaged by rain/stones etc. I also noticed on the YouTube vid that it was running a bit rough over 2500 rpm. That will be because the prop has been incorrectly clocked. I had the same issue. It must be 9-3 o'clock with the blade and prop spinner and backing plate properly aligned with TDC on CYL #1. Unfortunately the is also a CSB that states 1/7 oclock and CYL #4 (that is wrong!). If you do it properly, when the engine stops, the prop always stops vertical. If its not clocked properly, the prop stops horizontal. It makes a noticeable difference. I noticed that this aircraft the prop stopped horizontal and they complained about small vibration issues. Easily corrected.

My aircraft had also been stored for 6 years or more before I purchased it, but the reasons turned out to be legit. As a result, the plane is in great condition overall as it has lived its whole life in a hangar.

What it is not - its not an IFR platform despite the claims unless you have an auto pilot and are happy to destroy your prop in rain. It's excellent D-VFR and I also have used mine NVFR. As a recreational aircraft to beetle about the local area, it is perfect. You can also do cross country, but it is more of an ultralight as it is quite light and can be bounced about in turbulence or strong winds. I often fly mornings and evenings and its really enoyable.

If or when the FADEC or Speed Sensor go, I'll seriously consider going for an electric ignition, new pump and injectors and a new panel, maybe G3. I'd also consider going Rotax although that will be a bigger undertaking I suspect. The speed sensors can be sourced and can be purchased for $4k odd, but they are hard to find. I'd prefer the aircraft to be on experimental anyway so you can buy cheaper instruments etc.

Good luck
 
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