Left the master on...questions

Do not know where you are located, but in Florida life expectancy of a battery is two to three years. My bet, bad battery, and you did not leave the master on. Find a new FBO to rent from. Tell them you owe them nothing unless they can prove you left the master on and that you killed a good battery. Not familiar with the skycatcher, or G300 but am with the G1000 and even with polarized glasses you can still see the screen(not so well but it does not look like it is off when it is on). Also the hobbs in the C182, and C172 from at least before 2008 is mechanical and not part of the G1000. The tach is part of the G1000, and that well is a whole other issue with crappy programming.
 
This is bull. I ran down a new battery once, charged it back up and got a normal lifespan out of it. At best they could ask you for a prerated battery charge, but even that is baloney. If the thing was in good shape they should have been able to charge it back up. If not it was time for replacement anyway. You saved someone from running out of juice in midair.
 
RotorAndWing said:
One can only imagine how you would go about handling a parking ticket. :rolleyes:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
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You read a rental agreement lately -- all the fine print included? And in the context of a dispute with the renting agency over responsibility for damage? As you point out often, I am not an attorney, but I know when I need one, and a legal dispute over contractual language is one time when I need one. You have fun acting pro se in such a situation and let us know how it turns out.

As for a parking ticket, if I really was parked illegally, I just pay the fine and try to avoid making the same mistake in the future.
 
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And this is why she (and other schools it seems) just have a flat fine for leaving the master on. We seldom actually charge it but in a case where it caused issues it prevents any questions.
 
jmn444 said:
I think that's on the harsh side. I would expect the owner of a rental business to have things like batteries and general consumables readily available for quick repairs. That kind of stuff should be expected and planned for and down time should have been the 15 minutes it takes to swap in a new battery.
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That's almost exactly what I said. The FBO will need to keep batteries in stock because people like the OP will leave the master on and drain them. Batteries in stock are an expense item, and in order to do that, they will have to raise rental rates on everyone to expense for actions caused by the irresponsible renters.

I have a lot of houses for rent, and it's no different. Rents go up because tenants don't take care of property. It's axiomatic. Wonder why rent is so high? Well, part of it is because people who rent stuff don't give a shyte about someone else's property.
 
Ron Levy said:
You read a rental agreement lately -- all the fine print included? And in the context of a dispute with the renting agency over responsibility for damage? As you point out often, I am not an attorney, but I know when I need one, and a legal dispute over contractual language is one time when I need one. You have fun acting pro se in such a situation and let us know how it turns out.

As for a parking ticket, if I really was parked illegally, I just pay the fine and try to avoid making the same mistake in the future.
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My guess is hiring an attorney over this is going to cost a lot more than anything the FBO is going to expect him to pay, and my experience with attorneys seems to be they love to run up their bill and your expenses, and at the end of the day you end up settling in a compromise that benefits no one but the attorney. More often than not, using a shotgun to kill a mosquito leaves a big hole in the wall, and a swarm of mosquitos to deal with as well.
 
Don't be too hard on yourself. The last time I used the mechanic at my home field he (or one of his employees) left the master on my plane. I had a dead battery when I needed to fly. Yes, we jumped it. Might have effected the battery life, I do not know but the battery did recharge and work for some time thereafter. I did not ask him for any reimbursement.

What is the expected service life of an aircraft battery?
How old was the battery in that plane?
 
douglas393 said:
My guess is hiring an attorney over this is going to cost a lot more than anything the FBO is going to expect him to pay, and my experience with attorneys seems to be they love to run up their bill and your expenses, and at the end of the day you end up settling in a compromise that benefits no one but the attorney. More often than not, using a shotgun to kill a mosquito leaves a big hole in the wall, and a swarm of mosquitos to deal with as well.
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Might be true, but if you have a good attorney, it's not going to cost much for a quick read of the contract and advice on whether you have options. And if you have the AOPA Legal Service Plan, I think this would be covered.
 
mattaxelrod said:
Why? Can you explain?
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A flat dead battery requires a slow, low amp charge to bring back to a full charge. The alternator will deliver a full current charge to a dead battery possibly overheating the battery, overheating the alternator/generator, and produce excessive hydrogen gas (never a good thing), along with a myriad of other possible problems. If a battery is dead and you assume it will be ok after jumpstarting it, then you land and find that the battery is dead, then what? That is why anytime a battery is found dead it should be recharged and it's capacity should be tested. If you need more explanations see the attached link.
http://www.concordebattery.com/main_air_tech.php
 
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bartmc said:
Tell them to go **** themselves.
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:yeahthat:

Offer to pay whatever they would have made on the rental right after you had the plane. That is the only thing you owe them.

- You didn't 'break' the battery. It was at the end of its useful life when you got into the plane.
- Jumping the plane and then trying to get the alternator to charge it back up is not the right way to do it. They should have swapped in a spare and put the discharged battery on a appropriate charger.
- They have a spare, right ? If they don't they can't blame you for their poor parts logistics.
 
Ron Levy said:
You read a rental agreement lately -- all the fine print included? And in the context of a dispute with the renting agency over responsibility for damage?
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I haven't rented an airplane in probably 25-30 years. I've rented other types of machinery, and yes I'm quite capable of reading and understanding a rental agreement.

Ron Levy said:
As you point out often, I am not an attorney,
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But you enjoy pretending to be one on the internet. :rolleyes: :rofl:

Ron Levy said:
. You have fun acting pro se in such a situation and let us know how it turns out.
.
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:rolleyes2: :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 

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Ron Levy said:
You read a rental agreement lately -- all the fine print included? And in the context of a dispute with the renting agency over responsibility for damage?
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Jim Logajan said:
There are no doubt such monstrosities. I do not know if my FBO is typical (http://www.abouttimeaviation.com/index.php?action=aboutUs.rates), but they have a rental agreement small enough to fit on the back of every self-filled invoice:
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Did you have your lawyer read and explain it to you?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
What we all need is a simple pressure switch under the seat that turns off the master switch when you remove your tookus from the pilot throne...

Of course you would need a switch under the cowl to turn the master on for servicing (of course you need the cowl to switch the service switch to the OFF position when it's put on to REALLY keep it pilotproof).

Problem solved...:lol:

Chris
 
...and when the idiot in the PIC seat doesn't buckle, gets to (neg) Gs, and the garmin fires due to the master off then on then off off than on transients,.....yeah, that'll work good.... :(
 
How about this instead:

Buzzer sounds when engine is off, master is on, and the door is open?
 
I got it! How about a rocker switch so it can tell you, with just a quick glance, if it's on or off?
 
cowman said:
How about this instead:

Buzzer sounds when engine is off, master is on, and the door is open?
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Something like the alarm that is in modern cars that alert you that you left the headlights on?

The squeal of the mechanical gyros in all the rentals I have access to are a dead giveaway that the battery master is on. They act as an alarm.
 
bbchien said:
...and when the idiot in the PIC seat doesn't buckle, gets to (neg) Gs, and the garmin fires due to the master off then on then off off than on transients,.....yeah, that'll work good.... :(
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What was I thinking...
Solve the problem with the master switch and pilet doofuses (doofI?) will forget to buckle the harness's.:yikes:
Then they put -G on the Flycatcher and fry the cool little TV thingy.:dunno:
Huuummm...
OK...starter interlock thru the occupied seat(s). No latchy no starty!

Negative G fries the dummybox? Build a plane cheaper using real gauges (sunlight readable too!) in place of the video game.

Chris
 
Our club leaves the beacon switch on in the 152's

The idea is that if the master is left on, someone will spot it.
 
Recently I had an avionics shop leave the master on in my bird. How you can do that with a G1000 seems nearly impossible to me, but it happened. I found out when I was trying to go somewhere (of course). I put it on the charger and waited a couple of hours, then went about my business. I didn't get compensated, I didn't get a new battery, I didn't get any money for emotional stress. I didn't even tell them about it. What difference would it have made?

If you rent aircraft, people will do trivial things like leave the master on. It's just a cost of doing business. Keeping an extra battery around that works on your rental fleet and can be changed in 15 minutes, sure seems like a simpler, cheaper answer, than hiring attorneys to write pages of rental agreement legalese, BWTHDIK.
 
jmn444 said:
I think that's on the harsh side. I would expect the owner of a rental business to have things like batteries and general consumables readily available for quick repairs. That kind of stuff should be expected and planned for and down time should have been the 15 minutes it takes to swap in a new battery.
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It takes much more than 15 minutes to install a new battery. Batteries come dry; the acid needs to be added, the battery let sit for a bit, the acid brought to the top of the plates, and then put on charge for about eight hours. The acid is topped up near the end of the charging process.

It's all in the instructions that come with the battery.

If this is all done ahead of time and the battery then sits for months, it sulfates slowly and its lifespan decreases. Like anything else on an airplane, it rots whether it's flying or not.

Dan
 
steingar said:
This is bull. I ran down a new battery once, charged it back up and got a normal lifespan out of it.
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Maybe you did. You were lucky. Most folks aren't, and deep-discharging a battery shortens its life. Your singular experience does not define the rule.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
It takes much more than 15 minutes to install a new battery. Batteries come dry; the acid needs to be added, the battery let sit for a bit, the acid brought to the top of the plates, and then put on charge for about eight hours. The acid is topped up near the end of the charging process.

It's all in the instructions that come with the battery.

If this is all done ahead of time and the battery then sits for months, it sulfates slowly and its lifespan decreases. Like anything else on an airplane, it rots whether it's flying or not.

Dan
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I believe with 15 minutes he refers to swapping in a battery that sits filled and charged on the bench. In a Warrior or Comanche with the battery under the bench or in the aft fuselage, 15min sounds about right for that task. In a Cessna with the screwed in cowling it probably takes longer.
 
Point is, an active flight school should have a battery or two on the bench, ready to go, all the time. The first time they need it, it pays for itself. If the removed battery is dead, it's gone; if the removed battery is merely discharged, it gets re-charged on the bench and is ready, "in the bullpen," for the next time it is needed, whether to replace a battery with a dead cell or to swap in, in place of an accidentally-discharged battery (or a battery which was discharged when an alternator failed).
 
If I were renting airplanes I'd do what one military club I used to fly with did. Hard wire the rotating beacon to the master switch. Master on, beacon on.

I've been guilty of leaving the master on before, it didn't kill the battery, but I worried about overheating the gyros.
 
bbchien said:
...and when the idiot in the PIC seat doesn't buckle, gets to (neg) Gs, and the garmin fires due to the master off then on then off off than on transients,.....yeah, that'll work good.... :(
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And when the PIC is an off duty flight instructor and flies solo in the right seat.....

Seats are actually poor places for electrical equipment. Wires are very susceptible to fraying due to all the flex. Try a NHTSA search for fire related vehicle safety recalls, and you'll find that a surprising number of them are related to power lumbar seats.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Maybe you did. You were lucky. Most folks aren't, and deep-discharging a battery shortens its life. Your singular experience does not define the rule.
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I own two motorcycles, I do stuff like this all the time and have been for quite a few years. Airplane batteries aren't made out of pixie dust, the chemistry is the same. If the battery is any good to begin with you can drain and charge it. If not, not.
 
Battery should be pro rated if not very old. My Instructor(20,000 hour+ Corporate & Ag pilot) says leaving the Master on is like ground looping a Stearman......"those that have and those that will".
 
MAKG1 said:
And when the PIC is an off duty flight instructor and flies solo in the right seat.....

Seats are actually poor places for electrical equipment. Wires are very susceptible to fraying due to all the flex. Try a NHTSA search for fire related vehicle safety recalls, and you'll find that a surprising number of them are related to power lumbar seats.
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Even a pilet with a CFI should be able to tell the seat operated master switch ain't on if he's in the wrong chair...?
Well...maybe not.

Lets see; a airoplane master switch is engaged by grounding the relay so the seat switch (aw hell, put 3-4 switches under there for redundancy) ain't likely to start a fire. BTW; most airoplanes don't have no lumber seat thingys.

Next.

Chris

P.S.
I have a hanger neighbor with a Grumman that has run down his battery (Concord G25RX I think) 3 times leaving the master on. Each time we charged it 15A to trickle. He's on the 4th year with this battery. I'll convey to him just how lucky he is.:rolleyes2:
 
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I personally do not trust a battery if its been fully discharged. Every time I've had it happen, properly recharge, and return to service the damn thing leaves me stranded a few moths later. If it happens now I replace with new, call me wasteful, but I'm damn sick of being stranded due to bad batteries.
 
jesse said:
I personally do not trust a battery if its been fully discharged. Every time I've had it happen, properly recharge, and return to service the damn thing leaves me stranded a few moths later. If it happens now I replace with new, call me wasteful, but I'm damn sick of being stranded due to bad batteries.
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THIS!...(and post #50)
 
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jesse said:
I personally do not trust a battery if its been fully discharged. Every time I've had it happen, properly recharge, and return to service the damn thing leaves me stranded a few moths later. If it happens now I replace with new, call me wasteful, but I'm damn sick of being stranded due to bad batteries.
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I have found that I can save a battery once, but that is putting it into flight school service where I flies a couple times a week (on a bad week)
 
bbchien said:
THIS....is why you can't fly my airplane.
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THIS is why I own my own. I'd let you fly it(for free in spite of the regs) if you left the master on, id charge the battery and razz you about checklists from time to time and make up stories about missing something important while waiting on the battery to charge. What I wouldn't do is call you you a month and a half later wanting money.
 
cowman said:
How about this instead:

Buzzer sounds when engine is off, master is on, and the door is open?
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Yeah to that, mine does that - master caution alarm - but you can kind of figure anyway with the G1000 powered up.

In other airplanes beacon is the key. I switch the strobes (if equipped) off, walk away from the airplane, hear or see the beacon, swear and come back to switch off the master.

Point being, not having the beacon in your own airplane helps :D
 
Maybe this was already covered but im a little late to this thread, but if everything else is turned off, whats left to pull a current from the battery?
 
bartmc said:
THIS is why I own my own. I'd let you fly it(for free in spite of the regs) if you left the master on, id charge the battery and razz you about checklists from time to time and make up stories about missing something important while waiting on the battery to charge. What I wouldn't do is call you you a month and a half later wanting money.
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Nah.
bartmc said:
Tell them to go **** themselves.
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You'd tell me to ****** off (as you posted), and that is why you cannot fly my airplane.
 
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ajstoner21 said:
Maybe this was already covered but im a little late to this thread, but if everything else is turned off, whats left to pull a current from the battery?
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Turn coordinator, master relay coil and a couple of other little things that will drain the teeny weeenie batteries we have in aircraft.
 
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