Landing Plateau

jetedrick

jetedrick

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
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105
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Omaha, NE
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Display name:
JT
How does one get over the landing plateau? I always feel like I am coming in too fast for some reason, same with coming in too low. I know the runway looks fine and my airspeed is good...

I haven't had (in my own mind) a good landing yet, yeah I am able to walk away from the plane but I am a perfectionist at times. I don't want to stall high or float too far across...

I am hoping with practice I will get better but it has been one of the harder things for me to grasp. I am also working on my ground reference maneuvers so I can get my solo endorsement.
 
BTDT.

You need another set of eyes. An instructor flying with you should be able to see what you are doing and suggest specific modifications. Sometimes it takes a different instructor than your regular one to see it. As a student, I had a second instructor help me through a pre-solo landing plateau; as an instructor I regularly brought in other CFIs to help with a student with landing issues I couldn't correct.
 
I felt super stuck on landings as well. I always felt the ground was rising too fast at the last part of my descent. Raising the seat is what did it for me. But I did get a different set of eyes and they improved a bit by doing that as well, without that switch I don't know if I would have known to raise my seat. I didn't believe most people when they say one day it clicks. The day I raised my seat I soloed because everything just came together.
 
Try focusing on the far end of the runway. This will slow down the perceived speed and make you aware of your glide slope angle. Your peripheral vision will be aware of the touch down spot. Also don't stop flying the plane "put it on the center line". Worked for me hope it helps.
 
Where are you flying out of?
 
All of my landings have been successful, many have been quite good, most have been average, and a few have bee real dogs, however, the next landing, or flight for that matter, that I do not learn something will be the first time that occurs. I have yet had the perfect landing.

The four most important things I have been taught about landings are:
1. Nail the speeds every time. Even the difference of 5 knots in either direction can change the landing tremendously.
2. Know what the landing should look like from the cockpit. Two good ways to do this is to see what it looks like when your instructor lands the plane, and see remember the site picture just as you take off.
3. Configure the plane. Use trim and flaps. Appropriate use of both will decrease the work load of landing tremendously, and make landing a lot less of an effort.
4. Let the plane do what it was designed to do. The plane will almost land itself, if you do everything else correctly. There is no need to rush the landing. Remember a go around is not the sign of a bad pilot, but the sign of a good and safe pilot.

One other tidbit, remember getting the plane safely transitioned from a graceful air machine to a less graceful ground vehicle is not the end of the job. You still need to maintain directional control until the engine is turned off and the plane is tied down or in the hangar.
 
jesse said:
Where are you flying out of?
Click to expand...

I fly out of KCBF.

I am not sure what will make it "click" for me but I am sure I will get there...just seems like I am slow to pick it up. My CFI thinks I am better than I think I am...

I know how a landing should look and feel but I am not there yet.
 
jetedrick said:
I am not sure what will make it "click" for me but I am sure I will get there...just seems like I am slow to pick it up. My CFI thinks I am better than I think I am...

I know how a landing should look and feel but I am not there yet.
Click to expand...

Happened with me right after solo, when I could not fly for four weeks because of the weather. Every landing was miserable during that first lesson after the hiatus, but after another 'refresher,' my instructor turned me loose for solo to the practice area.

For me I think it was a fixation thing, concentrating on the aiming point and forgetting to look towards the end of the runway to help judge height. I was consistently flaring too high. Once I regained the sight picture, my landings improved. A quick glance to either side will help with judging height.

Nailing the speeds will help, and that's a matter of getting stabilized during the descent. It helps me if my airspeed is on target when I turn base. The problem I'm having is judging how much power I need. Flying solo, the Champ needs much less power, and I have to consciously think about that. The trim also seems less effective when flying solo.

I flew again today, after another week of crappy weather, and ended up too high on my first two approaches. A slip helped with the second landing. My other landings were better because I set up stabilized approaches.

Hang in there. You will get it.
 
I didn't start to feel good about my landings until after passing my check ride. After feeling good about them, I saw the error of my ways and stopped feeling good about them.

I rely on my wife to tell me what a good landing is. She isn't a pilot and has no interest in learning at all. She knows what she likes though, and if she's not happy with my landing, she won't be afraid to tell me. She's happier with most more than I am.
 
ugh, JT, ask these guys, I was so close to quitting basically because I couldn't nail my landings. I've been pretty hard on myself, and although I wouldn't say "it's clicked" with me yet, there is no shortage of great advice coming out of PoA. If I had to say which tidbit has helped me the most, it's to transition where you're looking to further down the runway. sure enough, EVERY time I'm looking just over the cowling, it'll be a bad landing. it's only when I remember to look further down the runway that my landing stands any chance of being decent. I ALMOST had a greaser tonight when my instructor sent me around the pattern a few times solo, I just left the tiniest little tick of power in, other than that it was pretty good. oh, and my first solo real go-around. just didn't like my speed.
keep at it!
 
I find the best landings start on downwind. Set yourself up for success.
- give yourself lots of spacing with anyone else in the pattern. Fly your airplane not theirs.
- nail your speeds.
- if you arent stabilized by ~300' AGL take it around.

Occasionally let the instructor fly your final so you can see that sight picture again and not have to worry about flying the airplane. Then do another lap and fly the plane so you get that same sight picture.
Look out your side window to see how high above the deck you are.
If you start settling dont accept the plane plopping in. Catch the settle with the power and bring it down like normal.

Enjoy it!
 
It will come.

I was doing great until I went for my "pre-solo" check ride with a different instructor, all was good, then back with my main guy and I couldn't find the correct flare height if my life depended on it.

The things that got me through, as mentioned get the speeds right, use trim to establish the correct attitude, and as soon as you flare look to the end of the runway and try to just hold it off a couple of feet as long as possible.
 
just for fun, JT, here's a playlist of my landings from last night (and one go-around). watch the flares real close on vid 1 and 2. on 1 I was mistakenly looking directly over the cowl, on 2 I made sure to look way down the runway, and you can clearly see the difference it makes. each clip is about :30 to 1:30ish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRLyhAPyhmY&list=PLNg7UM0EqTKvqvxgRKYaAKHMbFIR7McNB

oh, and try not to beat me up too bad on the landings :)
 
jetedrick said:
I fly out of KCBF.

I am not sure what will make it "click" for me but I am sure I will get there...just seems like I am slow to pick it up. My CFI thinks I am better than I think I am...
Click to expand...

This is exactly my situation right now. I'm sure it will come, but it's frustrating not seeing much improvement after 4 lessons of all T&Gs.

My CFI says I'm doing fine, but I don't see it. I still think he's helping a lot at the end, even though he says I'm doing most of it myself.

I have at least gotten to the point that once we are off the runway again for the "go" part of the T&G, he releases the controls and leans back and pretends to fall asleep... until the last 300 feet on the subsequent "touch". :D
 
this is probably the most asked question. you'll get some good tips, but take some consolation in the fact that a lot of new pilots run into the same problem. Personally, I don't think I was consistent with my landings until I was doing my instrument training.
 
eman1200 said:
just for fun, JT, here's a playlist of my landings from last night (and one go-around). watch the flares real close on vid 1 and 2. on 1 I was mistakenly looking directly over the cowl, on 2 I made sure to look way down the runway, and you can clearly see the difference it makes. each clip is about :30 to 1:30ish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRLyhAPyhmY&list=PLNg7UM0EqTKvqvxgRKYaAKHMbFIR7McNB

oh, and try not to beat me up too bad on the landings :)
Click to expand...

How wide is that runway?
 
N659HB said:
How wide is that runway?
Click to expand...

lol, it's a staggering 40ft wide.

but the good news is that it's tucked nice and tight into trees, all you have to do is just barely clear the tree tops, hold on for dear life as you get kicked around by windshear, duck under telephone wiring but stay just above the roofs of passing cars and place it down gently on the non-existent touchdown markings. anyone can do it!
 
eman1200 said:
lol, it's a staggering 40ft wide.

but the good news is that it's tucked nice and tight into trees, all you have to do is just barely clear the tree tops, hold on for dear life as you get kicked around by windshear, duck under telephone wiring but stay just above the roofs of passing cars and place it down gently on the non-existent touchdown markings. anyone can do it!
Click to expand...

I would agree it's a 'tight' little strip, but it's wider than I thought. (Makes my 100' runways seem decadent).

There's an airstrip outside Fayetteville that's 30' wide, IIRC. I once thought about taking lessons there. :eek:
 
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jetedrick said:
How does one get over the landing plateau? I always feel like I am coming in too fast for some reason, same with coming in too low. I know the runway looks fine and my airspeed is good...

I haven't had (in my own mind) a good landing yet, yeah I am able to walk away from the plane but I am a perfectionist at times. I don't want to stall high or float too far across...

I am hoping with practice I will get better but it has been one of the harder things for me to grasp. I am also working on my ground reference maneuvers so I can get my solo endorsement.
Click to expand...

In regards to this, are you using the PAPI lights? All 4 runways are equipped with them.

How are your patterns? I find that if I screw up the pattern, even early on, it screws up my landing to an extent.
 
My patterns aren't that great...I tend to go too long on base and have to readjust for final to get centered on the runway but my downwind is long enough that I have plenty of time. I haven't been using the PAPI lights, suppose I could turn them on and see if they help with the glide from final.

I do feel better that it isn't just me...

Thanks for all the kind advice!
 
eman1200 said:
just for fun, JT, here's a playlist of my landings from last night (and one go-around). watch the flares real close on vid 1 and 2. on 1 I was mistakenly looking directly over the cowl, on 2 I made sure to look way down the runway, and you can clearly see the difference it makes. each clip is about :30 to 1:30ish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRLyhAPyhmY&list=PLNg7UM0EqTKvqvxgRKYaAKHMbFIR7McNB

oh, and try not to beat me up too bad on the landings :)
Click to expand...

Wow that runway is really slim! Not sure I'd do too well with it...
 
eman1200 said:
lol, it's a staggering 40ft wide.

but the good news is that it's tucked nice and tight into trees, all you have to do is just barely clear the tree tops, hold on for dear life as you get kicked around by windshear, duck under telephone wiring but stay just above the roofs of passing cars and place it down gently on the non-existent touchdown markings. anyone can do it!
Click to expand...

That's not a runway....that's a sidewalk....:rofl:

Looks fun for precision landing training though, well done and thanks for sharing
 
JT trust me it aint just you. I guess I'm hard on myself but I think I'm the worst at landing in aviation. I haven't broken the plane or scared my CFI so it can't be as bad as I think. I'm comfy with my pattern, my flare everything except I cant get to the point where I flare to much and ballon. My CFI isnt concerned, he says I'll have an "ah ha" moment and it will click.
 
loch1957 said:
JT trust me it aint just you. I guess I'm hard on myself but I think I'm the worst at landing in aviation. I haven't broken the plane or scared my CFI so it can't be as bad as I think. I'm comfy with my pattern, my flare everything except I cant get to the point where I flare to much and ballon. My CFI isnt concerned, he says I'll have an "ah ha" moment and it will click.
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If you flare and balloon, you're likely too fast and/or your flare is a dive toward the ground with a last minute arresting pull rather than a smooth roundout. I can't stress enough how nailing the recommended approach speed will help your landings. Don't allow your final approach speed to be some nebulous range of speeds that you sort of hit within a few knots, even if the POH gives you a range. That's not a dig; I did it too.

Open the POH, find the recommended final approach speed range, take the lower number, and nail that sucker. (Use gust factor as appropriate.) In the Cessna 172M I fly, it gives a range of 60-70 knots. Once I started nailing 60, my landings improved at least two-fold, and short field landings were suddenly doable within PTS standards.
 
Did some landings today, feel like I am not flaring long enough and stalling high...

...at least it isn't my plane! :)
 
jetedrick said:
Did some landings today, feel like I am not flaring long enough and stalling high...

...at least it isn't my plane! :)
Click to expand...

I'm not understanding.

If you're stalling high, you're flaring early (high). Flaring too little means a flat landing, no stall at all.
 
Sorry, I should have said I am either flaring early or flaring too little...it is either one or the other...not both at the same time. I can't quite get that perfect landing that would make me happy, still too rough and uncomfortable coming in to land.
 
Well, I'm officially a believer in the "one day it will just click" camp. It did for me today.

My lesson before today featured 8 landings in 7G13 varying from a nearly 90degree x-wind to a 30ish degree crosswind. My landings were less than stellar, and my CFI had to jump in on about half of them to save me from wrecking us.

Today featured 4 knot winds that were still about 40 degrees off runway heading, but quite stable. We did 9 landings, and on about the third one, something just clicked.

For background, my CFI has actually complimented my patterns, power and flap management, and everything else as "quite good". Two things were killing me... reluctance to reduce/kill the power once the field was made (the sight picture made me think "lawn dart") and the last 3-5 feet. On the last 3-5 feet I had trouble keeping the nose centered, and I had trouble flaring smoothly.

Well by the time we had about 3 landings in today, I realized what I should have been doing all along, was pointing the nose well, and had a much improved flare. During the post-lesson debrief, my CFI said that on one landing he saw me start to put in the wrong inputs, but then I caught myself, and put in the correct inputs. He said that doing so showed that I was figuring it out.

He sent me home with the pre-solo written test, and said that I should be ready to solo "soon". :yes:

If you had told me 2 weeks ago this would happen, I would have laughed. I've been struggling with this particular phase of flight for a few months now, and I had at one point even considered hanging it up, as I just didn't think I would ever make any progress. Well today I fooled myself. :goofy:

Sorry to thread hijack, but besides wanting to brag, I also wanted to reassure you, that it will come. One day, when you're least expecting it. :)
 
livitup said:
Well, I'm officially a believer in the "one day it will just click" camp. It did for me today.

My lesson before today featured 8 landings in 7G13 varying from a nearly 90degree x-wind to a 30ish degree crosswind. My landings were less than stellar, and my CFI had to jump in on about half of them to save me from wrecking us.

Today featured 4 knot winds that were still about 40 degrees off runway heading, but quite stable. We did 9 landings, and on about the third one, something just clicked.

For background, my CFI has actually complimented my patterns, power and flap management, and everything else as "quite good". Two things were killing me... reluctance to reduce/kill the power once the field was made (the sight picture made me think "lawn dart") and the last 3-5 feet. On the last 3-5 feet I had trouble keeping the nose centered, and I had trouble flaring smoothly.

Well by the time we had about 3 landings in today, I realized what I should have been doing all along, was pointing the nose well, and had a much improved flare. During the post-lesson debrief, my CFI said that on one landing he saw me start to put in the wrong inputs, but then I caught myself, and put in the correct inputs. He said that doing so showed that I was figuring it out.

He sent me home with the pre-solo written test, and said that I should be ready to solo "soon". :yes:

If you had told me 2 weeks ago this would happen, I would have laughed. I've been struggling with this particular phase of flight for a few months now, and I had at one point even considered hanging it up, as I just didn't think I would ever make any progress. Well today I fooled myself. :goofy:

Sorry to thread hijack, but besides wanting to brag, I also wanted to reassure you, that it will come. One day, when you're least expecting it. :)
Click to expand...


I am beginning to think this is true for all of us.

When I started training I wondered what all the fuss was about this mythical "landing block" then it hit me and I could flare if my life depended on it....it took ,me another 10-12 hours to solo after my "pre-solo" check ride...oh well all good practice.
 
Yeah, it does "click."

I know I'm going to regret saying this, but I haven't landed with sideload in over a year. I've plopped in, landed flat, and landed off center, but never with sideload.
 
Did a few more landings today...still hasn't quite clicked yet. I can land but it isn't pretty and just isn't smooth yet.

I will get it, I am so ready to prep for my solo!
 
jetedrick said:
Did a few more landings today...still hasn't quite clicked yet. I can land but it isn't pretty and just isn't smooth yet.

I will get it, I am so ready to prep for my solo!
Click to expand...

Cool..
Like I said something will click, and it will be something that seems so simple you will wonder what all the fuss was about.
For me, after I figured out the flare height, I couldn't get the crosswind stuff down. But my school was happy to set me off on my own.
I always felt like I was drifting in the final flare, I can even remember what my instructor did or said, but all of a sudden I was right on center line no matter the wind.
It will come
 
Heck, I'm about to do my checkride and I still have days where it's just not clicking. I can get it on the ground safely but I'm not hitting the spots I pick. If anything is going to kick my arse on the checkride it's going to be short field. I fly a Cherokee 235 and the cut power and dive in once you hit the threshold does not work in this plane. Think - rock with wings. The 235 is very nose heavy with the big 6-cylinder up front and it likes just a smidge of power all the way to the threshold.

The key as mentioned is a stabilized approach and nailing those speeds. For me it's 70 knots indicated on short final. If I'm fast - I'm floating like a balloon for another 500 feet - guaranteed.

I like being a little high and it was just a weird site picture for me to start flaring when I'm out over the grass knowing I'm safe - I'm just gonna float a bit and then hit the numbers. Once I got used to that - my short fields got a lot better. Also, on short fields I found that a bit longer final helped a ton so that I could get setup perfect. If you need to slip a little, etc... - you've got plenty of room to do what you need to do and get stabilized with full flaps and just focus on hitting that spot.

The winds in central Texas have been pretty brutal this spring/summer and as frustrating as it was I'm glad I did most of landings in at least 7-8 knot winds with some crosswind component and on at least 1/3rd of my landings was working in 12-15 knot with gusts up to 20. It gets you down some days but if you can land in that crap (even if ain't textbook pretty) it gives you a ton of confidence.

It'll come - keep working on it!
 
MAKG1 said:
Yeah, it does "click."

I know I'm going to regret saying this, but I haven't landed with sideload in over a year. I've plopped in, landed flat, and landed off center, but never with sideload.
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Now you've jinxed it. ;)

I usually don't either but once in a while I land with some extra "down load". :( :( :(

Then in retrospect at the hangar I recall staring at a point three feet in front of the nose at "touch"-down. ;)
 
OK my turn to jinx myself. Had a few decent landings in a row after rounding out much smoother and more gradually. I mean, my CFI has only been saying 'u gotta be smooth with it' for the last gazillion landings but I 'think', I'm hoping that I'm over my landing hurdle. Actually the last approach we were getting bounced around quite a bit and I put her down nice and smooth, got a nice smile out of the instructor.
 
Try this with your instructor.


  • Master slow flight
    Fly down most of the runway at a constant altitude of three feet

If you can do this then landing perfectly is just closing the throttle and settling on the mains.

Cheers.
 
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eman1200 said:
OK my turn to jinx myself. Had a few decent landings in a row after rounding out much smoother and more gradually. I mean, my CFI has only been saying 'u gotta be smooth with it' for the last gazillion landings but I 'think', I'm hoping that I'm over my landing hurdle. Actually the last approach we were getting bounced around quite a bit and I put her down nice and smooth, got a nice smile out of the instructor.
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Nice work.
 
kenjr said:
Heck, I'm about to do my checkride and I still have days where it's just not clicking. I can get it on the ground safely but I'm not hitting the spots I pick. If anything is going to kick my arse on the checkride it's going to be short field. I fly a Cherokee 235 and the cut power and dive in once you hit the threshold does not work in this plane. Think - rock with wings. The 235 is very nose heavy with the big 6-cylinder up front and it likes just a smidge of power all the way to the threshold.
Click to expand...
You can do it just fine without the power you just need to get the nose way down and leave it there until it's time to flare. Beginner pilots often start the flare way earlier then it's really needed.
 
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