Landing Long

azpilot said:
It's a good question. I guess all I can say right now is, that is how I was taught to land. For me, that is the normal pattern.

I went through two phases of flight instruction. I started off in the 150 with "instructor #1". He taught me to fly the PAPI lights. After I did my long x-cntry, I took six months off (it's a long story). When I came back, my first instructor had taken a new job. I started flying in the 172 with "instructor #2". He taught me to fly the power off approach. It was a big adjustment, but he drilled it in to my head rather well, and that is the way I fly now.

Regarding straight in landings, I struggle with those right now. Because of the way I have been taught to fly, I am constantly coming in much steeper than the PAPI approach angle, so the lights are always white.
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There is another problem...
 
whoop!
I am going to give you 1 bit of grief.
At your current hours... 1 hand on the yoke. You know better than that :)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
whoop!
I am going to give you 1 bit of grief.
At your current hours... 1 hand on the yoke. You know better than that :)
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Good catch. One hand in yoke, one on throttle. Never take hand off throttle while executing an approach.

And that camera angle I could see your airspeed indicator. You were definitely 10-15 KIAS too fast each time.
 
N801BH said:
There is another problem...
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What can I say, that is the way I was taught. I did 110 landings (and yes, I counted) where he beat into my head to ignore the PAPI lights.
 
azpilot said:
What can I say, that is the way I was taught. I did 110 landings (and yes, I counted) where he beat into my head to ignore the PAPI lights.
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:goofy::goofy::goofy::goofy:...

AS a new pilot.. ANY visual clue will help...IMHO..
 
AggieMike88 said:
Good catch. One hand in yoke, one on throttle. Never take hand off throttle while executing an approach.

And that camera angle I could see your airspeed indicator. You were definitely 10-15 KIAS too fast each time.
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The ASI on that plane is not a normal looking ASI. You'll notice that the ASI needle is in the middle of the white arc. The range of the white arc on that plane is 33 - 85 KIAS. The average of those two speeds is 59 KIAS. I don't want to come in 10 - 15 KIAS slower than that.
 
N801BH said:
:goofy::goofy::goofy::goofy:...

AS a new pilot.. ANY visual clue will help...IMHO..
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Ya, I tried that line on him. He told me to ignore them. Then I mentioned it the next time, and he told me to ignore them again. Then when I brought it up the third time, well... I'll let you take a guess what he said.
 
Well, you seem to be making it a lot harder on yourself than you have to. No throttle and no slips means you have to get the turns exactly right, even when the wind changes with altitude.
 
I would say u AINT using the papi if ur coming in that high/steep.
 
azpilot said:
What can I say, that is the way I was taught. I did 110 landings (and yes, I counted) where he beat into my head to ignore the PAPI lights.
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Use them as a guide but learn to gauge your approach visually. I use 55-60kts over the number in the 172 and it looks like you are certainly too high but that may be the camera angle. Being too high will lead to you being too fast so start with working on the approach and the landings will follow. My $0.02.
 
If you pulled power abeam your touchdown point I would assume that you were using the Captain's bars (1000ft marker) and keeping a tight pattern or even using altitude and not distance to dictate your base leg.

Looking at the ASI I want to say that you are closer to 80 kts on final and it is taking some time to bleed off the extra energy. This would seem to be reasonable if you pulled power abeam the numbers as you would shoot past your aim point while bleeding off the excess energy.

asi.jpg
 
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red4golf said:
If you pulled power abeam your touchdown point I would assume that you were using the Captain's bars (1000ft marker) and keeping a tight pattern or even using altitude and not distance to dictate your base leg.

Looking at the ASI I want to say that you are closer to 80 kts on final and it is taking some time to bleed off the extra energy. This would seem to be reasonable if you pulled power abeam the numbers as you would shoot past your aim point while bleeding off the excess energy.

asi.jpg
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That's not the scale of the ASI in the plane I was flying. I was doing between 60 and 65 KIAS. I've actually tried searching for an image of the ASI, but I can't find one.
 
Does it look more like this? It is hard to see in the video and that is why I attached a snippet to compare with the photo I posted. Looks like 80 knots based on the needle position unless the scale is more like the photo below.

ASI.jpg
 
This is the best picture of the ASI I could find. My wife took it while we were on the ground. You can see that the 6:00 position is 80 KIAS. You can also see that the top of the white arc ends at about the 6:30 position. The top of the white arc in that plane is 85 KIAS. The 3:00 position is 50 KIAS. If you watch the video the ASI needle is right at the 4:30 position on all five landings. That is 65 KIAS.
 
Very cool. After seeing that I would say that you need to change your aim point. When I had my CFI with me I could nail the numbers and be off at the first taxi way but when I was solo..... long, fast and off at midfield it was.
 
red4golf said:
Does it look more like this? It is hard to see in the video and that is why I attached a snippet to compare with the photo I posted. Looks like 80 knots based on the needle position unless the scale is more like the photo below.

ASI.jpg
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I was pretty sure people would watch the video, think the ASI was the more "standard" looking one, and then tell me I was going faster than I really was. But that's all good. :)

This has been a really good discussion though. I'll probably need to start learning to fly Pipers though. I just got an email that the FBO I rent from is having a complete change in management, and might be going out of business. Bummer...
 
red4golf said:
Very cool. After seeing that I would say that you need to change your aim point. When I had my CFI with me I could nail the numbers and be off at the first taxi way but when I was solo..... long, fast and off at midfield it was.
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I agree with you. Since I got my ticket, I have been taking lots of different people up flying. I am just doing this for fun, so they have all been rather short local flights on fair-weather days. I'll be planning a flight soon when I can just go out and do about 10 laps in the pattern and work on that aiming point.
 
red4golf said:
If you pulled power abeam your touchdown point I would assume that you were using the Captain's bars (1000ft marker) and keeping a tight pattern or even using altitude and not distance to dictate your base leg.

Looking at the ASI I want to say that you are closer to 80 kts on final and it is taking some time to bleed off the extra energy. This would seem to be reasonable if you pulled power abeam the numbers as you would shoot past your aim point while bleeding off the excess energy.

asi.jpg
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Not nesscarly, just depends on how you manage your energy, you could just as easily blow by your target as you could stall before the threshold.

Believe it or not you can take a Cessna and fly a descending downwind at 160kts, bottom of the green, turn a sweeping down wind to final at 45 degrees from the threshold and still cross the fence at vref, just gotta make a rather sporty downwind to final turn.
 
After watching the video again and understanding the ASI a little better I would say you are aiming at the 500 ft marker and floating to about 800 - 1000 feet before touchdown. I noticed that you are pretty high when turning final so a slip or nosing over would help and I also noticed the airspeed creep up some. I really couldn't tell if it was 65 increasing to 70ish or 60 going to 65 but that could account for some of the extra distance. You really should be looking for 55 to 60 at about 50 feet (IMHO) with only two on board. It doesn't take very much extra speed to make you float a long way.

It was hard to tell with the camera angle but your aim point didn't look to be consistent either. The end of the runway passed under the nose and different sizes leading me to believe you were crossing at different heights each time. It is hard to tell but working on your consistency will improve your landings.
 
azpilot said:
I agree with you. Since I got my ticket, I have been taking lots of different people up flying. I am just doing this for fun, so they have all been rather short local flights on fair-weather days. I'll be planning a flight soon when I can just go out and do about 10 laps in the pattern and work on that aiming point.
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You might try to find an airport with a pretty long displaced threshold. Find out why that threshold is displaced. Most are to clear obstacles on final on relatively shallow glide paths, not the angle of descents you'll be typically flying with pattern work. Also know how big a deal it is if you touch down a few feet short, like is airport management watching and enforcing. Start out Aiming for the paint of the threshold. Having the confidence of all that extra pavement might help you overcome the natural instinct to keep it high and long. I was having the same problem you are and this helped me. There are different markings on displaced thresholds, mostly some kind of arrow. At the airport I'm doing a lot of flying from now the third arrow back is the aim point for me with the airplanes I'm flying. The VASI does not go all red until after I've cleared the fence, the flare starts over the arrows but touchdown is beyond the threshold. Of course you can't get the sight picture you'll have doing this wired in to your brain and try to take it to other runways, but it might help in overcoming a natural fear against landing short. Ask around your local area and pick the brains of CFI's there and see if they think this might help.
 
Man... 2 hands on he yoke? and haul'n Azz on final... You've picked up some bad habits... you may want to do a couple with an instructor to get back on track...
 
FlySince9 said:
Man... 2 hands on he yoke? and haul'n Azz on final... You've picked up some bad habits... you may want to do a couple with an instructor to get back on track...
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How is 65 KIAS hauling 'azz'?
 
azpilot said:
How is 65 KIAS hauling 'azz'?
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I fly a 172M and shoot for 65-70MPH over the fence or call it 55-60 KIAS. 65 is a little fast so you will float longer.

I am not a high time pilot I have about 150 hours and only 40 or so hours and 150 landings since starting again after 20 years off. So take this for what it is a rookie giving rookie advice. The others here are far more well versed than I but this is the internet where anyone can be an expert. :goofy:

The thing is Cessna's float. So you either need to nail the airspeed or you need to plan for the float. Being a less experienced pilot I tend to carry a little more airspeed than I need to. Here are a few of my videos. Not perfect by any means and I have the luxury of picking the better ones. :D

Here as mentioned a few posts of above is one using an aiming point on the displaced threshold knowing you will float some and just about hit the numbers. With power off this is going to be harder I suspect.
Here is translating the other end of the runway same idea but no displaced threshold.
This is what happens when you are too fast. The landing so nice I made it twice.

I also noticed (watch your eyes) that you look down at the instruments I assume the ASI when you are already low and over the runway. At that point there isn't much reason to it would seem to me. What ever extra speed you are carrying you need to just fly it off down the runway.

Good luck!!!

ETA: I probably need to work on a little steeper approaches myself they tend to be a little flat which works some places not so much at others.

ETA2: Oh and the stall horn doesn't really work on this plane. :rolleyes:
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
But ya know if your pax is casually snapping photos through the landing, you are doing pretty good.

Mine are more often screaming and praying. :hairraise:
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I once took a friend and his wife up in my Maule. Wife speaks limited english and I turned around to check on her after doing a flight brief to find her crossing herself and praying.
 
FYI, 5 knots can make a very disproportionate difference in ground effect. Even with Cessna barn doors.
 
Heh, this thread brings back memories of flying in a 172. The differences between that and a PA-28 are night and day. I pull the power in my Cherokee and I'm down in no time. On a 172 I could glide down half the runway.

Power management is the key.

When I did fly the 172 it was 2000 RPM midfield, 1800 abeam, hold altitude first notch of flaps, bleed the airspeed off and let it down to about 700-800 feet, turn base, second notch. Reduce power to approach speed, maybe 1500, third notch. And just add power a tad if your sink rate is too low. Still had some float but could always get it down by the second runway centerline mark.

If you're doing a short, aim for 50-100 feet before the threshold.

And in any case, pull power when field is made. No reason to carry any in a 172. If you're anything but idle you're doing it wrong.

I hardly ever even need flaps in the Cherokee. Maybe I'll do two notches, MAYBE. Usually it's no flaps or one notch.
 
Just admitting you have a problem goes a long way towards solving it. And I'm only labeling this a "problem" because you did. Edit.... you didn't call it a problem. Just a habit! :D

If you're locked into 20 degrees of flaps and throttle at idle, you're eliminating a couple of tools folks use to fine tune their approach. If you're determined to land it that way the only things you have left to control are the point you make your downwind to base turn, airspeed, and your aiming point.

Like you said, just go do laps until you're landing where you want. From primary training I was in the habit of plopping it on near the numbers and making the first turn off. Just how I was taught. My IFR instructor encourages 1000' mark. I can do that, too!
 
I had the same problem, but it didn't develop until well after I got my ppl. I was flying into a lot of Class C & B airports, and got used to coming in fast so as not to screw up the flow of traffic too much. Then, coming in slow was scary. So I got in the habit of practicing slow flight, and doing simulated short-field landings, at least once per month. The slow flight practice (which I do at 3,000 ft) really makes a difference. And I mean sloooow, with the stall horn blaring the entire time.
 
That's the thing, inexperienced CFIs teach their students to be afraid of the stall horn, like its a bad thing. During slow flight it should be on the whole time, on short final it should be chirping and in your flare it should be full buzz. If it's not you're going to fast.
 
MAKG1 said:
FYI, 5 knots can make a very disproportionate difference in ground effect. Even with Cessna barn doors.
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That's good to know. The next time I go out flying I plan on spending an hour in the pattern working on this (and remembering to have one hand on the yoke and one on the throttle). I'll make sure to shoot for 60 KIAS on short final.

I will say, when I was first staring out, I had a problem with getting too slow. I remember on one of my first solo flights, looking down at the ASI and seeing that it was just above 40 mph (this was in the 150, it's ASI reads in mph, not knots). I was about 100' above the ground when I saw that. It scared the crap out of me. Since then, I have always erred on being a few knots fast, rather than a few knots slow.

I do know that I need practice though. Thanks for the pointers.
 
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