Landing Long

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
Hello, I am a fairly new pilot. I have a total of 79 hours. Most all of that time has been in a Cessna 150 and 172's. I earned my PPL back in July and have mostly been taking friends and family on short local trips.

I have noticed that I have developed a habit of always landing long. I had a go-pro hooked up to record my flight on Saturday. I made a total of five landings. On all five landings, I was finally touching down on the runway at about 800 to 1,000 feet down the runway. I think I might not have my site picture down. I also think I am nervous about coming up short, that I err on the side of landing long. Most of the runways where I fly are all 4000' plus.

Is this something that I should just get better at as I fly more? I want to make sure I am actively working to correct this instead of just 'hoping' it gets better.
 
Too fast on final?

Edit: And yes, it is similar to my experience. For the longest time, I would land long. Not an issue really as most strips I fly in are lengthy. You do need to have the ability to pick a spot and put the plane as close to that spot as possible.

At 79 hours, I don't think landing long is unusual. That said, work on spot landings.
 
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Great landings start with great approaches. You're likely too fast on through out the approach and especially on final.

Review with your CFI the proper approach speeds for your aircraft. The POH will be a good start, but some modification of that info is always needed as each aircraft is different.

With correct airspeed (and energy) management, you should be able to put a C172 on the runway within the first 100-300 feet of pavement.

That you're landing 800-1000 feet is sorta okay for the really long bits of pavement. But what if you want to travel to shorter 3000-foot or less places?

Improvement is needed. Keep practicing.
 
What AggieMike said. From the time you turn base (as the FAA calls it the "key position") you need to constantly be evaluating AIRSPEED and your position relative to the RUNWAY. AIRSPEED...RUNWAY...AIRSPEED...RUNWAY. If you keen the airspeed nailed then the only variable is adjusting power (or perhaps flaps) to adjust the glidepath.

You let the airspeed wander then you're chasing many variables at one time.
 
Were you following the PAPI or VASI, because they ain't going to put you on the threshold.

Go take a high time pilot (doesn't exactly have to be a CFI) out to some short strips.

Practice some slow flight and stalls, do some low speed passes down the runway, just holding her off 6 inches or so.

Use your aim point in your windshield, lock a target just before your desired touchdown point in your windshield, if it moves up you're getting too low, moves down you're getting too high, once you're just off the deck, eyes all the way down the runway to the infinity point, hold her off with some power for a second or two and chop it just before your touch down point.

Don't be afraid to slip
 
Good landings are slow landings. As you begin your descent to land you have to get potential energy) and kinetic energy (velocity squared x mass) down to almost zero...of course, zero is impossible. Adding drag such as gear and flaps helps. If you have too much airspeed you will burn up that energy by floating or by scrubbing the tires and burning the brakes. Bottom line is: lowest safe airspeed. Do not be buffaloed by the airspeed indicator, however...learn to feel the aircraft using your five senses. Go up with a CFI and shoot a bunch of landings with the airspeed indicator covered (Orville and Wilbur did not have an airspeed indicator).

This is my recommended procedure when there are no FAA-standard 100-foot trees in the approach path: Aim about 50 feet short of the threshold, transition to level flight at your usual height, and let kinetic energy take you to the runway surface.

Bob Gardner
 
Yeah, everyone is zeroing in on a fast approach. That's definitely a fairly likely possibility. Just about everyone approaches fast until they work it through.

As a guide, use the short field approach speed, which is on the slow end of the range given in the normal approach. For a 172(N), 61 KIAS, not 60-70. That number gets reduced at less than max gross weight (it scales as sqrt(M)). It's about 5 knots slower in a 152. Add half the gust factor -- no more -- if approaching in gusty winds.

Fly a 2400 foot field, and landing at 1000 will stop real fast.
 
Here is a suggestion on how to work this out... Figure out your Pitch + Power = Performance numbers

Go out with a pilot buddy to help keep an eye out for traffic and write things down. Get up to a comfortable altitude such 2000-3500 AGL (Around here, I'd be at 3500 MSL)

Have written on your notepad the speeds you need to be at for
  1. Downwind, midfield, level
  2. Downwind, abeam your landing point.
  3. Base Leg
  4. Long Final (base to final)
  5. Short Final (within 0.5 mile of threshold)
  6. Over the numbers

For discussion, let's say this is
  1. 95
  2. 95
  3. 85
  4. 75
  5. 70
  6. 65

First, determine what RPM it takes to fly straight and level, 0° Pitch, 95KIAS. Do this a few times transitioning from pattern entry speed to this result.

Next, determine what RPM and pitch it takes to fly 95KIAS, and descend at 300 FPM. Remember it's power that changes altitude, and pitch determines airspeed. So likely no change of trim is needed, but you will see a few degrees down on your attitude indicator

Next, determine what RPM and pitch it takes to fly 85KIAS, and descend at 300 FPM with your first notch of flaps deployed.

Repeat this with the last three items.

In the end, you'll have a table of numbers (see the thumbnail) that you can keep with you as a reference. Use this table as you fly the approach and you'll find your landings improving.

Eventually these configurations will become second nature for the aircraft you're flying today. But this exercise should be repeated for any new to your aircraft.

I have the same thing for the Skylane I fly. Knowing these numbers made a big improvement in my landings.
 
jordane93 said:
What's your final approach speed?
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65 knots

I don't think I am coming in too fast. I think I am coming in too high.

I am not following the PAPI lights. I was taught to go power to idle abeam the numbers and glide it all the way in. I am consequently coming in much steeper than the PAPI glide slope.

I took video with my go pro on Saturday. I'll see if I can post a short video of one of my landings for everyone to mock, er... umm... critique.
 
MAKG1 said:
Fly a 2400 foot field, and landing at 1000 will stop real fast.
Click to expand...

I believe that for sure!!! I think that is part of my problem. The shortest runway I have ever landed on was 3,900 feet long.
 
azpilot said:
65 knots

I don't think I am coming in too fast. I think I am coming in too high.

I am not following the PAPI lights. I was taught to go power to idle abeam the numbers and glide it all the way in. I am consequently coming in much steeper than the PAPI glide slope.

I took video with my go pro on Saturday. I'll see if I can post a short video of one of my landings for everyone to mock, er... umm... critique.
Click to expand...
65 is too fast in a 172 and way too fast in a 152.
 
Slow down,fly a stable approach,and don't watch the vasi,that will only get you to he hash marks.
 
azpilot said:
I am not following the PAPI lights. I was taught to go power to idle abeam the numbers and glide it all the way in. I am consequently coming in much steeper than the PAPI glide slope.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with power off landings when done correctly. But if you're doing that and winding up too high on medium/short final, you might be turning base too soon.
 
Don't forget that a slip is part of your repertoire, and it's necessary if you're going to aim power off all the time. Your passengers may not like it much.

Partial power approaches allow you to compensate for headwind on final with throttle. Power off approaches don't. You have to aim high and slip to lose altitude, for the common situation where the wind lessens as you descend.
 

Go to 11 minutes in for the landing sequence. THIS is how you set up a proper approach to landing of course this is a taildragger so your landing style may be SLIGHTLY different. :yes:
 
jordane93 said:
65 is too fast in a 172 and way too fast in a 152.
Click to expand...

Short final I really never looked at my ASI, for a 172/152 you should really be able to feel it, paint by numbers doesn't work well for real short field work.


On most cessnas your stall warning horn should be chirping on short final, and full on blasting in the round out.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yeah, everyone is zeroing in on a fast approach. That's definitely a fairly likely possibility. Just about everyone approaches fast until they work it through.

As a guide, use the short field approach speed, which is on the slow end of the range given in the normal approach. For a 172(N), 61 KIAS, not 60-70. That number gets reduced at less than max gross weight (it scales as sqrt(M)). It's about 5 knots slower in a 152. Add half the gust factor -- no more -- if approaching in gusty winds.

Fly a 2400 foot field, and landing at 1000 will stop real fast.
Click to expand...
Short field on my M is listed at 55kts. If I'm looking for short, I do that. Otherwise, I'll fly final at 65 or so, but slow to be 60+gust correction over the fence. Usually gets me down where I want to be.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Nothing wrong with power off landings when done correctly. But if you're doing that and winding up too high on medium/short final, you might be turning base too soon.
Click to expand...

I think this is my problem.
 
MAKG1 said:
Don't forget that a slip is part of your repertoire, and it's necessary if you're going to aim power off all the time. Your passengers may not like it much.

Partial power approaches allow you to compensate for headwind on final with throttle. Power off approaches don't. You have to aim high and slip to lose altitude, for the common situation where the wind lessens as you descend.
Click to expand...

This is an excellent thought. I need to work on the slips. The 172's I fly prohibit slips with more than 20 degrees flaps. When I am high, I usually just go flaps 40 rather than slipping.

I think the next time I go up, I'll just do about 10 laps in the pattern and really work on the slips and short fields. I nailed both of these on my checkride, but haven't really worked on them for the last six months since then.
 
azpilot said:
This is an excellent thought. I need to work on the slips. The 172's I fly prohibit slips with more than 20 degrees flaps. When I am high, I usually just go flaps 40 rather than slipping.

I think the next time I go up, I'll just do about 10 laps in the pattern and really work on the slips and short fields. I nailed both of these on my checkride, but haven't really worked on them for the last six months since then.
Click to expand...

You sure it's prohibited?
 
DFH65 said:

Go to 11 minutes in for the landing sequence. THIS is how you set up a proper approach to landing of course this is a taildragger so your landing style may be SLIGHTLY different. :yes:
Click to expand...

OMG!!!!!!!!!:hairraise::hairraise:
 
OK everyone. Be gentle.

Oh, and sorry, this was the best GoPro placement I could come up with.

 
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Go practice landing on the numbers. That's actually what I just got back from doing lol. 60-65kts with full flaps on approach and I finally nailed it.
 
Habitually landing long is, to me, a conscious or subconscious addition to your safety margin. That's my own self-analysis, as I've had to work on the same tendency since Day 1.

For me, I began doing better with approach and landing after doing lots of slow-flight and stalls so that I know exactly what to expect from my plane beyond the green arc. I'm mostly a for-fun flyer, so I make slow-flight and stalls part of the fun. Anyway, getting very comfy with how your plane handles at the threshold of stall will assist with your landing instincts. You'll slow the plane down earlier and nail your approach speeds better.
 
azpilot said:
OK, you got me, it says they should be "avoided".

"Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20 deg ..."
Click to expand...

If it's like the alphabet soup of 172s I've come across its nothing to worry about, it's a hair or pulsating in the yoke, no big deal.
 
azpilot said:
OK everyone. Be gentle.

https://youtu.be/xCYuyDqgdiU

Oh, and sorry, this was the best GoPro placement I could come up with.
Click to expand...

I'm not a big fan of power off approaches from the abeam position. You are coming in high and your aim point is too far down the runway. But, if you are simulating and engine failure, that is not a bad thing.

If you are trying to learn to fly a consistent pattern and approach, I would put the power off approach aside until you mastered the normal pattern. How would you fly a straight in? Would you drive it high on the VASI then power off glide to the runway? That is a real question, not a criticism btw.
 
You could take some lessons from this guy...this definitely isn't landing long (but you'd probably need to increase your comfort level in winds...)

 
Cooter143 said:
I'm not a big fan of power off approaches from the abeam position. You are coming in high and your aim point is too far down the runway. But, if you are simulating and engine failure, that is not a bad thing.

If you are trying to learn to fly a consistent pattern and approach, I would put the power off approach aside until you mastered the normal pattern. How would you fly a straight in? Would you drive it high on the VASI then power off glide to the runway? That is a real question, not a criticism btw.
Click to expand...

Yup......:yes::yes:

And going too fast....:redface:
 
James331 said:
If it's like the alphabet soup of 172s I've come across its nothing to worry about, it's a hair or pulsating in the yoke, no big deal.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I'll give that a try. The 172 already sinks like a rock with flaps at 40 degrees. I am sure it will shed altitude quite quickly while slipping with full flaps.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
A bit too high.

But ya know if your pax is casually snapping photos through the landing, you are doing pretty good.

Mine are more often screaming and praying. :hairraise:
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Ha!!! That was my wife. It was her very first time flying with me. She had been so nervous about flying and she ended up having a great time. And yes, she was casually snapping pictures all the way to the ground. :)
 
you DO know TPA isn't 3000'AGL, right? I'm just kidding, it's really hard to tell in vids like this but it just looks like ur high and comin in a lil steep. it doesn't look like u have any obstacles to clear, maybe try aiming for the threshold, even 50 feet before the threshold......the APPROACH threshold, not the far end I KID, I KID. honestly they look pretty good, although the approach won't help u if u need to get into a short field.
 
Cooter143 said:
I'm not a big fan of power off approaches from the abeam position. You are coming in high and your aim point is too far down the runway. But, if you are simulating and engine failure, that is not a bad thing.

If you are trying to learn to fly a consistent pattern and approach, I would put the power off approach aside until you mastered the normal pattern. How would you fly a straight in? Would you drive it high on the VASI then power off glide to the runway? That is a real question, not a criticism btw.
Click to expand...

It's a good question. I guess all I can say right now is, that is how I was taught to land. For me, that is the normal pattern.

I went through two phases of flight instruction. I started off in the 150 with "instructor #1". He taught me to fly the PAPI lights. After I did my long x-cntry, I took six months off (it's a long story). When I came back, my first instructor had taken a new job. I started flying in the 172 with "instructor #2". He taught me to fly the power off approach. It was a big adjustment, but he drilled it in to my head rather well, and that is the way I fly now.

Regarding straight in landings, I struggle with those right now. Because of the way I have been taught to fly, I am constantly coming in much steeper than the PAPI approach angle, so the lights are always white.
 
eman1200 said:
you DO know TPA isn't 3000'AGL, right? I'm just kidding, it's really hard to tell in vids like this but it just looks like ur high and comin in a lil steep. it doesn't look like u have any obstacles to clear, maybe try aiming for the threshold, even 50 feet before the threshold......the APPROACH threshold, not the far end I KID, I KID. honestly they look pretty good, although the approach won't help u if u need to get into a short field.
Click to expand...

Ha! Ha! No worries, I can take a little ribbing. And yes, it is difficult to review a landing with the GoPro footage.

You make a good point though. I need to think about my aiming point. It also doesn't help that I am constantly landing on 4,000'+ runways.
 
pikespeakmtnman said:
You could take some lessons from this guy...this definitely isn't landing long (but you'd probably need to increase your comfort level in winds...)

Click to expand...

I have seen that video before. That is amazing!!!!

Any guesses on how strong that head wind is?
 
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