Landing Downwind

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
11,571
Location
Ingleside, TX
Display Name
Display name:
Jay Honeck
We're sitting at our island airport this evening, supping beers and enjoying the night air. And watching a guy in a Diamond try to land with a 15 knot tailwind.

I was in the hangar when I heard him go gliding past to the North, at idle power, finally touching down well over half way down our 3400' runway.

There's water off that end, so we were happy to hear the power come in and a go-around being executed. I didn't see the type aircraft, and wondered aloud if we were seeing a CFI giving a lesson about landing with a tailwind...

Surely he wouldn't try that again...right?

4 minutes later, he was on final approach once again. The windsock was nearly straight out in his direction of flight, so we sat back to watch the fun.

He was a bit slower thus time, but he still didn't touch down until he was even with us. We heard the skittering of locked tires on asphalt as he floated and floated, and wondered if we were going to see his strobes disappear into the drink.

He finally stopped, and taxied slowly back to the ramp, right past the windsock.

Did he ever figure out his problem? Did he not know the AWOS frequency? Was he having a dyslexic moment? Twice?

Dunno, but he made it.
:rolleyes: :confused:




Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...
 
Last edited:
One problem with downwind landings is that unlike a normal landing, your ground speed is faster than your airspeed. If you look out the window, see the ground going past at about the same speed as you do when on upwind landings, you assume you airspeed is the same as on a normal landing.

If you use the visual reference out the window, you will not realize you are actually going far slower than on a normal landing, and possibly very close to stall speed.

On the other hand, if you do look at the airspeed and see it is slow, you speed up and land at a far higher speed than during a normal landing.

Either way, it's not likely to be a happy landing.
 
Last edited:
Maybe he just wanted to practice landing with a tailwind?
 
Wonder if he/she didn't want to come in over the water?
 
He didn't have as sectional and didn't know the frequecies, Jay. It's pretty common. And look at the sock? ....c'mon.....
 
You're supposed to turn that island around so it agrees with the approach direction. Is the turntable not working again?
 
RileyMitchum said:
I have never actually seen this done, or done it myself. Seems like good, albeit dangerous, practice.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that it's safe. But when I was getting my PPL my instructor had me do a few landings with a tailwind so I'd know what it's like from personal experience. Of course the runway for long enough.
 
I make sure my students try a couple with a tailwind so they know how it looks/feels when it's wrong and then we do a go around.

Poor guy, maybe he finally figured it out over dinner. Hope so, that can sure get you
 
RileyMitchum said:
I have never actually seen this done, or done it myself. Seems like good, albeit dangerous, practice.
Click to expand...

I'm still a student, but have done a couple. Granted, our runway is long enough, but I do think there is a benefit to at least being able to experience the difference. With water at the other end though? Uh, no... not for me. :rolleyes:
 
EppyGA said:
Wonder if he/she didn't want to come in over the water?
Click to expand...

Actually, landing to the North the way he did pulls you out over the Gulf in the dark. Landing to the South (which would have been correct) brings you out over the channel/bay, which is marginally better.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
I have done a couple times, one was intentional. It is pretty damn obvious that something isn't right.. Kind of like that first time you land a 172 with 40MPH straight down the runway and to the 1/2 mile final Hover? It gets your attention, and you decide to go up and re-evaluate the situation.

Only time this has got me though, has involved an out of date ASOS (one time), and a sock in a bad spot on the field (2 times it didn't reference what was near the runway).. Longer strips with multiple socks though, and a crosswind, you should be able to understand when the socks don't match....
 
Jeanie said:
I make sure my students try a couple with a tailwind so they know how it looks/feels when it's wrong and then we do a go around.

Poor guy, maybe he finally figured it out over dinner. Hope so, that can sure get you
Click to expand...

About an hour later, he departed.

Downwind. Again. :eek:

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
We have e same problem. The other valley can have winds opposite ours. So pilots leave that airport on Rwy 35 (HND) or Rwy 30 (VGT) and come down to our valley and plan Rwy 2. But we've been flying all day on Rwy 20 with SW winds. (0L7)

No ASOS or AWOS, but they don't even listen to other traffic in the pattern to determine operations. If there is no one in the pattern, it's fun watching an SR20 or 22 float 1/2 way down the runway, land and smoke tires stopping. Or a go around for another try to the same downwind runway.

Yes there are 3 windsocks on the field, plus a huge flag on the corner at the local hotel/casino.

Then the anon radio call, "nice downwind landing".
 
That's about as smart as an intentional downwind winch launch with a weak winch and an 8-10 knt quartering tailwind. Barely made TPA after a 4000ft run. He should have made 1800-2000ft AGL.
 
Downwind landings can bite you in the bottom! After using all the runway at Cedar Key a few years ago I did a little research and found some interesting stories including:



NTSB Identification: MIA91LA146.
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 44019.
Accident occurred Wednesday, May 15, 1991 in CEDAR KEY, FL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 03/31/1993
Aircraft: PIPER PA-28-181, registration: N83021
Injuries: 4 Uninjured.
NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.PILOT USED WRONG RUNWAY FOR WIND CONDITIONS AND LANDED WITH TAIL WIND. PILOT WAS UNABLE TO STOP AIRCRAFT BEFORE RUNNING OFF DEPARTURE END OF RUNWAY INTO THE GULF OF MEXICO.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
THE PILOT'S SELECTION OF THE WRONG RUNWAY FOR WIND CONDITIONS. Index for May1991 | Index of months
 
Last edited:
I did this very early in my training on a solo. The airport had a T wind vane and for some brain fart reason when I overflew the field I read it opposite. It was a short runway and it scared the crap out of me because when you put power back in, in that situation it takes longer to get going again on go around. By the time I was at the end of the runway I was maybe 30 ft off the ground and climbing to avoid power lines. This really made me nervous at the time but I saddled up and landed and learned an extremely valuable lesson all on my own. To all you PPL trainees, let this sink in and don't do it!! Unless of course you're practicing with a cfi and have lots of runway! :yes:
 
Last edited:
A downwind landing in itself shouldn't cause you to float. However, if your airspeed is above 'stop flying speed' at the flare the tailwind will elongate whatever float you get. That elongation compared to the compression of a headwind landing can be quite extreme.

Point is, if you're going to land with a tailwind be spot on with the speeds. In the flare you should be right at stall speed, else you float.
 
Ummmmmm, if you fly the approach correctly even with a tailwind you should still touchdown within 200' of the numbers. The only thing landing downwind does it increase the ground roll. (Assuming no obstructions on approach)
 
Jay Honeck said:
We're sitting at our island airport this evening, supping beers... And watching a guy in a Diamond try to land with a 15 knot tailwind...

Surely he wouldn't try that again...right?

4 minutes later, he was on final approach once again. The windsock was nearly straight out in his direction of flight, so we sat back to watch the fun.
Click to expand...
So, if the student who misread the windsock went in the drink, sank and drowned--you and your beer-swilling friends would have had a really good laugh? :rolleyes:

This:
comanchepilot said:
this is where you pick up the handheld . . . .
Click to expand...

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
So, if the student who misread the windsock went in the drink, sank and drowned--you and your beer-swilling friends would have had a really good laugh? :rolleyes:

This:

dtuuri
Click to expand...

I would only have laughed had this genius not reproduced yet. If he had I would have been saddened that his genes had been passed along to produce more idiots.

On the upside, his wife and kids could sue the engine company for millions of dollars.
 
Last edited:
Our club is based at a 6000x100 foot runway and just with the way the club is set up, there are a lot of pilots who don't fly often.

I see this type of thing a lot. Once on a weekday I was filling up a 152 and while doing so a club mooney came around, landed with a 10kt tailwind and touched down over halfway down the runway, started porpoising and went around. Went around the pattern, tried again, same result. I got on the handheld while he was on downwind and politely advised that the winds were favoring 21.

I would not get on the radio and bark at someone while they were on final or departing. Doing so might make a bad situation worse, and put me in the middle of it. But a little advice can't hurt and I don't see a problem looking out for someone else.

Another time I thought I was gonna have to talk a student down or try to find an instructor on the field - as I saw him overshoot and go around at least 8 times... fortunately he eventually made it in on his own as I was pondering what to do.
 
EdFred said:
I would only have laughed had this genius not reproduced yet. If he had I would have been saddened that his genes had been passed along to produce more idiots.

On the upside, his wife and kids could sue the engine company for millions of dollars.
Click to expand...

Make the BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars.. :rofl::lol::eek:
 
dell30rb said:
Our club is based at a 6000x100 foot runway and just with the way the club is set up, there are a lot of pilots who don't fly often.

I see this type of thing a lot. Once on a weekday I was filling up a 152 and while doing so a club mooney came around, landed with a 10kt tailwind and touched down over halfway down the runway, started porpoising and went around. Went around the pattern, tried again, same result. I got on the handheld while he was on downwind and politely advised that the winds were favoring 21.

I would not get on the radio and bark at someone while they were on final or departing. Doing so might make a bad situation worse, and put me in the middle of it. But a little advice can't hurt and I don't see a problem looking out for someone else.

Another time I thought I was gonna have to talk a student down or try to find an instructor on the field - as I saw him overshoot and go around at least 8 times... fortunately he eventually made it in on his own as I was pondering what to do.
Click to expand...

"Check winds" would go a long way on the radio without going to the point of issuing "instructions"
 
I guess the logical questions would be...

Was it dark ????

Is the wind sock lighted?
 
Flying in the flat midwest, we have wind and then there is WIND. I can tell by sight if I'm going downwind or upwind without a windsock. But a student may not.
 
dtuuri said:
So, if the student who misread the windsock went in the drink, sank and drowned--you and your beer-swilling friends would have had a really good laugh? :rolleyes:

This:

dtuuri
Click to expand...

Student? I doubt a student would be flying to an island airport at dusk, but I suppose it's possible.

I doubt a student would be flying a DA-40, but I suppose it's possible.

I doubt a student would make the exact same mistake on two arrivals and one departure, but I suppose it's possible.

But whatever -- if he had run off the end and splashed into the bay we would have fished him out before he drowned. Don't plastic planes float? :D

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
bnt83 said:
Flying in the flat midwest, we have wind and then there is WIND. I can tell by sight if I'm going downwind or upwind without a windsock. But a student may not.
Click to expand...

What's especially interesting about this pilot's choice of runways is that our island winds are always out of the South. Like, 95% of the time. I can count on one hand the number of landings I've done to the North here, since moving here in 2010.

So it's not like landing to the North was "the normal runway", or anything like that. Quite to the contrary, in fact.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
No, it can definitely cause a float and make for a very dangerous situation especially to a very low time student pilot.
 
ProspectingCFI said:
No, it can definitely cause a float and make for a very dangerous situation especially to a very low time student pilot.
Click to expand...

As long as the wings support the aircraft the wind makes no difference to the handling of the plane (discounting gusts which cause local variations). So, in a steady state wind the plane flies the same. The wind only cause a change in reference to the ground. If you think about it that makes sense as wind is a measure between the ground (zero as viewed by the observer) and the airmass.

So, an airplane will stop flying at the same indicated air speed regardless of if its in a head wind or tail wind as referenced to the ground. The difference is the amount of terrain covered in a float. If a plane stops flying at 55 kts and a pilot comes in at 63 kts and floats for 5 seconds to bleed off that extra 8 kts then you can see the difference between head wind and tail wind.

5 seconds with a tail wind eats up much more runway than 5 seconds with a head wind. It would be easy to convert both situations to ground speed and see how much more runway gets used in the tailwind scenario.

But the fact remains that the tail wind itself did not CAUSE the float. It just made the float use more runway than would otherwise have occurred.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top