Landing backwards on ice??

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VictorValencia

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VictorValencia
An experienced pilot told me today that, when landing on an
icy surface, sometimes you can use the rudder to turn the
plane 180 degrees and the thrust is now reversed and it can
help you slow down.

Seems logical to me but I'm curious how you keep the plane
pointing straight backwards with just the rudder. I assume
you're not moving fast during this maneuver.

Is there a video of this procedure floating around the web somewhere?

Victor
 
VictorValencia said:
An experienced pilot told me today that, when landing on an
icy surface, sometimes you can use the rudder to turn the
plane 180 degrees and the thrust is now reversed and it can
help you slow down.

Seems logical to me but I'm curious how you keep the plane
pointing straight backwards with just the rudder. I assume
you're not moving fast during this maneuver.

Is there a video of this procedure floating around the web somewhere?

Victor
Click to expand...

Does said experienced pilot stand to gain from any of your life insurance policy payouts?:lol:
 
Are you sure he wasn't giving a gullibility test?
 
Someone find a really large icy surface... like a lake where you have room to mess up. Attempt this... record video from several angles. If you survive you'll be a GA hero.
 
When landing on ice in a big crosswind you use throttle instead of rudder/aileron to keep yourself on centerline. Just land in a crab. I've never heard of anyone doing what the OP is suggesting.
 
Only possible on an ice-coated treadmill.
 
VictorValencia said:
An experienced pilot told me today that, when landing on an
icy surface, sometimes you can use the rudder to turn the
plane 180 degrees and the thrust is now reversed and it can
help you slow down.

Seems logical to me but I'm curious how you keep the plane
pointing straight backwards with just the rudder. I assume
you're not moving fast during this maneuver.

Is there a video of this procedure floating around the web somewhere?

Victor
Click to expand...

If anyone could do it this pilot could. He landed with one wing!

http://youtu.be/XRCbkBfdBrQ
 
What a load of cr*p, what does anyone from California know about ice?
 
Geico266 said:
If anyone could do it this pilot could. He landed with one wing!

http://youtu.be/XRCbkBfdBrQ
Click to expand...

Looks like that's a hoax :-( http://www.youtu.be/I89EMDZ0dsc

VictorValencia said:
An experienced pilot told me today that, when landing on an icy surface, sometimes you can use the rudder to turn the plane 180 degrees and the thrust is now reversed and it can help you slow down.
Click to expand...

Haven't done a full physics treatment of this, but I think the only way it could possibly work is if you landed with a huge tailwind, then used the rudder (and/or differential braking) to start to edge your way around while continuing to decelerate and let your plane do a 180 degree weathervane into the wind. It would take quite a wind, and I don't think would ever be a practical idea in terms of "oh yes, I'm doing this to help me slow down", but that's the only way I can figure it'd be possible.
 
champ driver said:
What a load of cr*p, what does anyone from California know about ice?
Click to expand...

Umm, there is ice here. Big mountains, but not all the ice is there. I get to deal with road ice every winter. &%*# mountain springs show up in the worst places.

But the maneuver is blatant horsepucky.
 
Sounds like bullpoop invented after he inadvertantly ground looped it. "I meant to do that."
 
mcmanigle said:
Looks like that's a hoax :-( http://www.youtu.be/I89EMDZ0dsc
Click to expand...

Wow, ya think? :rofl:


Haven't done a full physics treatment of this, but I think the only way it could possibly work is if you landed with a huge tailwind, then used the rudder (and/or differential braking) to start to edge your way around while continuing to decelerate and let your plane do a 180 degree weathervane into the wind. It would take quite a wind, and I don't think would ever be a practical idea in terms of "oh yes, I'm doing this to help me slow down", but that's the only way I can figure it'd be possible.
Click to expand...

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yea , I think you need to rethink this and add physics to the equation, and a whole lot of common sense. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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champ driver said:
What a load of cr*p, what does anyone from California know about ice?
Click to expand...

Hey now! Dontcha know ya can't make a frozen Daiquiri without ice, much less a proper martini...
 
Ice? I do that on land.
 
Thanks everyone for a good laugh. I was skeptical as well. This "guy"
has worked in the aviation industry for a long long time and even
worked for the FAA for 25 years. He's not the bull****ter type so
I have been giving him the benefit of the doubt :)

One thing that might not have been clear is that you would
only rotate 180 degrees when you are already moving fairly
slow (< 10 mph). If you're landing on a big frozen lake
I can't imagine you'd get hurt or break the airplane.

Victor
 
Seen a ton of landings at Alton bay in NH. Never witnessed that procedure. No pictures,it didn't happen.
 
Living here in Canada, I've never seen it, but have heard of it several times. It's not done at any rate of speed; it's just a maneuver used to stop the airplane when it's on skis (no brakes) and the ice is really slick. An airplane can slide a long way in those conditions and end up breaking itself against the shoreline.

Just because you guys have never seen it nor heard of it doesn't mean it's not used somewhere sometimes. Some of you have no idea what ice is like to operate on, either.

Dan
 
I actually saw something like this happen at KGRF a few years ago in a C12. It was not done on purpose but was actually a save as the plane started to fishtail on the ice. The power was applied after the plane spun around in an attempt to stop the spin and keep it from departing the runway. I had a chance to talk to a passenger after (also a pilot) and they were all equally scared and surprised that they didn't bend any metal.

I was a student pilot at the Army flying club and my instructor and I were walking around checking out the runway conditions when it happened. Needless to say we went back in for a ground lesson. I also get an earful from my CFI as to why he was happy that he spent his career in Apaches and not fixed wing…
 
Once upon a time on youtube there was a video of a guy peeling the landing gear off a Bonanza when he inadvertently spun the plane on an icy runway.
 
I once landed a Baron on a runway that unknown to me, recently had freezing rain come through and left about a 3/8" layer of clear ice on it. Fortunately the wind was right down the runway, but when I turned off onto the taxiway, which was about a 45 degree turn, I was only able to taxi with about a 30 degree crab into the wind. there was no way I could taxi straight, the plane wanted to weathervane into the wind, and so I crabbed all the way to the ramp. It was so slippery you could barely walk on it.
 
What the OP is referring to is a legit bush ski flying technique for use on very smooth ice where you can land and then start a powered ground loop (tailwheel airplanes), which then uses thrust to slow you down, since there's so little friction on a smooth icy surface. This technique is for smooth ice (frozen lake), not snow, or even compacted snow. It's really a wide, skidding, 180 degree turn, and not going "backwards". Like a car doing a 180 degree drifting turn in the mud.
 
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champ driver said:
I once landed a Baron on a runway that unknown to me, recently had freezing rain come through and left about a 3/8" layer of clear ice on it. Fortunately the wind was right down the runway, but when I turned off onto the taxiway, which was about a 45 degree turn, I was only able to taxi with about a 30 degree crab into the wind. there was no way I could taxi straight, the plane wanted to weathervane into the wind, and so I crabbed all the way to the ramp. It was so slippery you could barely walk on it.
Click to expand...

Been there.. Done that...

Now that I have a Go Pro mounted on the wing I will get some video for you all this winter..:yikes:.........:yes:
 
Dan Thomas said:
Living here in Canada, I've never seen it, but have heard of it several times. It's not done at any rate of speed; it's just a maneuver used to stop the airplane when it's on skis (no brakes) and the ice is really slick. An airplane can slide a long way in those conditions and end up breaking itself against the shoreline.

Just because you guys have never seen it nor heard of it doesn't mean it's not used somewhere sometimes. Some of you have no idea what ice is like to operate on, either.

Dan
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I do and I think it's a load of b.s. If it's happened at all you can bet the pilot changed his undies right away. Possibly as a last ditch effort. When landing on ice , glare ice is to be avoided. Anyway, Your usually landing on snow of various depths.
 
champ driver said:
I once landed a Baron on a runway that unknown to me, recently had freezing rain come through and left about a 3/8" layer of clear ice on it. Fortunately the wind was right down the runway, but when I turned off onto the taxiway, which was about a 45 degree turn, I was only able to taxi with about a 30 degree crab into the wind. there was no way I could taxi straight, the plane wanted to weathervane into the wind, and so I crabbed all the way to the ramp. It was so slippery you could barely walk on it.
Click to expand...

I landed in similar. The runway was semi clear with fair breaking, but the tarmac was so slick brakes had no effect. It was fun learning how to use the control surfaces to stear. I ended up doing a few 360s to get where I needed to go due to cross wind. The line guy fell down twice before giving up and heading back to the FBO for the golf cart. . :eek:
 
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VictorValencia said:
One thing that might not have been clear is that you would
only rotate 180 degrees when you are already moving fairly
slow (< 10 mph). If you're landing on a big frozen lake
I can't imagine you'd get hurt or break the airplane.

Victor
Click to expand...

Generally when I make a turn at low speeds after landing I call it taxiing.
 
RoscoeT said:
What the OP is referring to is a legit bush ski flying technique for use on very smooth ice where you can land and then start a powered ground loop (tailwheel airplanes), which then uses thrust to slow you down, since there's so little friction on a smooth icy surface. This technique is for smooth ice (frozen lake), not snow, or even compacted snow. It's really a wide, skidding, 180 degree turn, and not going "backwards". Like a car doing a 180 degree drifting turn in the mud.
Click to expand...


I believe this is possible, but not while landing. I would consider this a taxi maneuver.
 
Good thing I'm from CA. I don't get it. If I can't drive a car on it, it doesn't sound like a good idea to land on it.
 
I once saw a video of a X-plane 777 taking off backwards using reverse thrust and just before liftoff spinning round at 140 knots or whatever a 777 takes off at and stowing reversers and taking off normally, since we know for a fact that if it is possible in fight sim then it's possible in reality then it's totally plausible to spin 180 on a icy lake to stop.

I think somebody needs to try this, the OP may be onto something here.
 
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