Kobe Bryant dead in helicopter crash

[SToL]

So this may well be 8000x the same hour of socal fair-weather flying from airport to helipad and back.

While he was instrument rated, I'll be looking forward to the report to see whether he had any current instrument experience in a helicopter. Some years back, one of the Maryland state troopers flew an AS365 into the trees short of Andrews when he had to fly an unexpected ILS. He was also highly experienced, instrument rated and 'paper current'.

This is a very valid point. Experience, i.e, hours, doesn't mean a skilled pilot in every situation. A pilot can be extremely skilled in day vfr in busy airspace, but not so good flying into HA ops, or IFR, or short strips, etc. You need to look at the over all picture and see what experience, how recent, and how well they performed those operations.

Unfortunately I know a lot of helicopter pilots who can not be convinced that when the weather goes down, it's time to slow down. They're convinced that the only way they're going to survive is to keep their airspeed high. How do you convince someone who thinks like that?

 

[IK04]

I’m confused by one thing because I have 0 helicopter experience. If this helicopter was suffering and engine loss, would it still be able to produce enough power to maintain the same airspeed it had throughout the flight?

No.

 

[weilke]

Unfortunately I know a lot of helicopter pilots who can not be convinced that when the weather goes down, it's time to slow down. They're convinced that the only way they're going to survive is to keep there airspeed high. How do you convince someone who thinks like that?

That's the part that baffles me about helicopter CFITs. Unless you are taking small arms fire from the rebels, why are you trying to go fast in poor visibility. You don't have to hover, but give yourself some time to react.

Now based on the bicyclist pictures and the ADSB data, this doesn't look like a CFIT to me at all, so thats kind of a moot point. Now does speed help with maintaining control during transition from VFR to IFR flight ?

With that kind of autopilot equipped helo, do you hand-fly while maneuvering with ground contact or is this something flown with the AP engaged (or is there some kind of hybrid mode).

 

[IK04]

One thing I noticed in the S76B operating limits, is 2 pilots for IFR. Was wondering if the B is VFR only and the C SPIFR???

Based on the photos all over the internet, N72EX was equipped with the Honeywell SPZ-7600 Digital Automatic Flight Control System (DDAFCS). That system is approved for single pilot IFR operations. Normally, the autopilot is coupled to the flight director immediately after a positive climb is established at the takeoff decision speed.

Any S-76 can be equipped with SPIFR avionics and it's up to the operator whether they want to pay for the additional capability and resulting training costs.

I've looked into some of the NTSB reports of aircraft mishaps that were related to unexpected failures of the SPZ-7XXX system. The FAA subsequently published a letter drawing attention to inadequate preflight checks and maintenance of the Honeywell system and quoted some of the NTSB reports related to aircraft loss of control (LOC) caused by improper use of the flight director and confusion over the interaction of the autopilot and the control panel.

The autopilot on a S-76 must be on during all flight modes. The helicopter was certified that way in order to maintain directional control in high-speed forward flight. Coupling the flight director at the wrong time with an incorrect mode selected can and does induce some unexpected pitch attitudes! That's exciting in the simulator, but potentially disastrous in flight...

The ancient S-76A++ I flew in a previous life was an excellent IFR platform, but it required two pilots, had no flight director at all and steam gauges! You had your hands on the controls at all times in that helicopter! The S-76C++, however was flown hands off, coupled at all times when IMC.

The S-76 is also a great VFR platform, except for the nose high attitude during decel and landing. A little pedal input fixes that, though...

Why am I mentioning all this? Because a DAFCS malfunction during a transition to IMC is the most logical explanation for this crash, in my opinion.

But what do I know?

 

[Velocity173]

Based on the photos all over the internet, N72EX was equipped with the Honeywell SPZ-7600 Digital Automatic Flight Control System (DDAFCS). That system is approved for single pilot IFR operations. Normally, the autopilot is coupled to the flight director immediately after a positive climb is established at the takeoff decision speed.

Any S-76 can be equipped with SPIFR avionics and it's up to the operator whether they want to pay for the additional capability and resulting training costs.

I've looked into some of the NTSB reports of aircraft mishaps that were related to unexpected failures of the SPZ-7XXX system. The FAA subsequently published a letter drawing attention to inadequate preflight checks and maintenance of the Honeywell system and quoted some of the NTSB reports related to aircraft loss of control (LOC) caused by improper use of the flight director and confusion over the interaction of the autopilot and the control panel.

The autopilot on a S-76 must be on during all flight modes. The helicopter was certified that way in order to maintain directional control in high-speed forward flight. Coupling the flight director at the wrong time with an incorrect mode selected can and does induce some unexpected pitch attitudes! That's exciting in the simulator, but potentially disastrous in flight...

The ancient S-76A++ I flew in a previous life was an excellent IFR platform, but it required two pilots, had no flight director at all and steam gauges! You had your hands on the controls at all times in that helicopter! The S-76C++, however was flown hands off, coupled at all times when IMC.

The S-76 is also a great VFR platform, except for the nose high attitude during decel and landing. A little pedal input fixes that, though...

Why am I mentioning all this? Because a DAFCS malfunction during a transition to IMC is the most logical explanation for this crash, in my opinion.

But what do I know?

Does the AP require 60 kts to stay engaged?

 

[IK04]

Does the AP require 60 kts to stay engaged?

It will fly coupled at 60KIAS, but I don't remember the minimum speed. Below 60, we had to be uncoupled and visual with the platform.

 

[Velocity173]

That's the part that baffles me about helicopter CFITs. Unless you are taking small arms fire from the rebels, why are you trying to go fast in poor visibility. You don't have to hover, but give yourself some time to react.

Now based on the bicyclist pictures and the ADSB data, this doesn't look like a CFIT to me at all, so thats kind of a moot point. Now does speed help with maintaining control during transition from VFR to IFR flight ?

With that kind of autopilot equipped helo, do you hand-fly while maneuvering with ground contact or is this something flown with the AP engaged (or is there some kind of hybrid mode).

Like @SToL said above, there are those who won’t slow down when the WX goes to crap. I’ve been with guys in Army and I look over and say “weather is going to $**** right? Ok, why are we still doing 140 knots?”

Now, why are they still going so fast? Simple, they are so preoccupied with what’s going on externally, they won’t divert their attention “inside” by slowing down and working the problem. It’s one of the ADM things I used to evaluate in the Army if I were to put up a new pilot for PC. If they’re quiet, not working thru the problem and talking to me (CRM / ACT), they’re not ready to go out on there own and “run the show” as a PC.

Quick story. One time at night in Kosovo I was running a little low level training route with a 2Lt (copilot) in the right seat. He was actually using a route that I had planned but I was on the controls. Still running at maybe 120 indicated, I crested a ridge, almost went IIMC and nosed it over into a small valley that appeared to have us blocked in by clouds. It’s a scary sight during the day, it’s even scarier under NVGs. Anyway, my PI freaks out and starts yelling “where the F are we!!...Where in the F are we!!” I actually chuckled a bit, told him to relax and brought the aircraft swiftly to a 200 ft stationary hover. I snatched the map (yes, paper) and gave him the controls. Took about 2 minutes to find an alternate route to low ground towards Pristina, got around the ridge, hung a right and clear all the way back to base. Work the problem.

So, why do helo pilots not do anything with the controls and stay VMC? Because like my PI that night, they panic and can’t work the problem. Not saying this is what happened to the accident pilot, but I’ve seen pilots first hand panic or have a mental block. Same thing happens to some who can’t adapt and flat out call an abort. I always tell my med crew, I judge a pilot in some ways on how many times they’ve tapped out and aborted. That’s someone who hasn’t let internal / external pressure influence their ADM.

 

[jspilot]

Your premise fails because it's possible to reduce airspeed quickly while maintaining altitude in a helicopter. An investigation would require inspection of the engines to determine a failure, but crash and fire damage could make that difficult.

Just to clarify-- I'm not making a single assertion or trying to discover the cause of the accident. I'm admittedly a moron when it comes to helicopters and was only asking about speed loss due to engine failure because I simply have no idea if that would occur in a helicopter that lost an engine.

 

[jspilot]

I am sure the NTSB will look at that and us spitballing here won't preclude them from doing so.

I would be suprised if they don't find the telltale signs of both engines running at full power on the rotating hardware they pick from the debris field.

Right- Sorry if I cam across as playing expert investigator. I was just trying to figure out if engine loss would produce reduced speed in a helicopter and I think I now understand much more about how an engine loss would be handled thanks to @Velocity173 and others who have experience with helicopters.

 

[IK04]

I've spent more hours sleeping in helicopters after being forced to land due to weather than a lot of pilots have flying them...

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

To echo @SToL , it’s RELEVANT experience that counts more.

But even then, we are humans and can make mistakes, regardless of relevant hours. Every incident should serve as a reminder that none of us is immune to human error (I realize how statements with absolutes like this may seem).

And then there are machines that can malfunction too.

Make sure to take something away from each incident and apply or reinforce to your flying and day-to-day life. There’s probably a worthwhile nugget in this one for all too.

Be safe, all.

 

[eman1200]

this is aggravating me...…………...CNN is reporting the helo "missed clearing the hilltop by 20-30 feet".....that makes it seem like they were flying in a straight line and if they were just 30 feet higher they'd have flown over the peak...………..yet most of the reports have the helo basically dropping out of the sky. so if that's the case, they didn't miss clearing any hilltop by any amount of feet, they dropped into it. know what I'm saying?

 

[MooneyDriver78]

With all this talk about the autopilot, how do we know it didn’t fail, or was even being used? Without out a black box, we may never know and will be left with the default “pilot error”.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

With all this talk about the autopilot, how do we know it didn’t fail, or was even being used? Without out a black box, we may never know and will be left with the default “pilot error”.

Flying at that altitude, I hope that it wasn't being used. But still, the pilot should take over if it goes offline.

 

[danhagan]

this is aggravating me...…………...CNN is reporting the helo "missed clearing the hilltop by 20-30 feet".....that makes it seem like they were flying in a straight line and if they were just 30 feet higher they'd have flown over the peak...………..yet most of the reports have the helo basically dropping out of the sky. so if that's the case, they didn't miss clearing any hilltop by any amount of feet, they dropped into it. know what I'm saying?

Well yes ... but we need some professional type illustrations/graphics next time and not the one from your 6 year old nephew

 

[luvflyin]

this is aggravating me...…………...CNN is reporting the helo "missed clearing the hilltop by 20-30 feet".....that makes it seem like they were flying in a straight line and if they were just 30 feet higher they'd have flown over the peak...………..yet most of the reports have the helo basically dropping out of the sky. so if that's the case, they didn't miss clearing any hilltop by any amount of feet, they dropped into it. know what I'm saying?

View attachment 82346

Yup. The NTSB folk fielded the question and danced around the answer. They just won’t say that maybe there might have been a loss of control of the aircraft

 

[Bell206]

With all this talk about the autopilot, how do we know it didn’t fail, or was even being used?

FYI: the flight controls are "assisted" by a Stability Augmentation System, which the upper autopilot functions build on, and should remain on in all phases of flight as I recall. In its most basic mode if the SAS portion is turned off or fails then you have a completely different aircraft to control.

 

[eman1200]

Well yes ... but we need some professional type illustrations/graphics next time and not the one from your 6 year old nephew

my 6 year old nephew will be sad to hear that he's out of a job

 

[Doc Holliday]

Yup. The NTSB folk fielded the question and danced around the answer. They just won’t say that maybe there might have been a loss of control of the aircraft

"Danced around the answer"........ You do realize this is an ongoing investigation, right?

 

[donjohnston]

It’s one of the ADM things I used to evaluate in the Army if I were to put up a new pilot for PC.

what is "PC"?

 

[Velocity173]

what is "PC"?

Oh, sorry. Most of the pilot abbreviations in the military use 2 letters. So you start out of flight school (Army) as a PI or pilot. Once you acquire all the necessary hours / training, you get signed off as a PC or pilot in command.

 

[David Megginson]

what is "PC"?

I want to get in a guess before we get the actual answer. I'm guessing that it's the army aviation equivalent of civilian PIC. Eliminating the "I" results in 33% improved efficiency.

(Update: too late; @donjohnston beat me by about 30 seconds)

 

[redtail]

So, why do helo pilots not do anything with the controls and stay VMC? Because like my PI that night, they panic and can’t work the problem. Not saying this is what happened to the accident pilot, but I’ve seen pilots first hand panic or have a mental block. Same thing happens to some who can’t adapt and flat out call an abort. I always tell my med crew, I judge a pilot in some ways on how many times they’ve tapped out and aborted. That’s someone who hasn’t let internal / external pressure influence their ADM.

Unfortunately I know a lot of helicopter pilots who can not be convinced that when the weather goes down, it's time to slow down. They're convinced that the only way they're going to survive is to keep their airspeed high. How do you convince someone who thinks like that?

That seems so counterintuitive to what I would think would be the norm.
I really appreciate hearing from you guys in the know (helo pilots), especially after hearing co-workers regurgitate the crap they hear from the media.

 

[RyanB]

this is aggravating me...…………...CNN is reporting the helo "missed clearing the hilltop by 20-30 feet".....that makes it seem like they were flying in a straight line and if they were just 30 feet higher they'd have flown over the peak...………..yet most of the reports have the helo basically dropping out of the sky. so if that's the case, they didn't miss clearing any hilltop by any amount of feet, they dropped into it. know what I'm saying?

View attachment 82346

That’s CNN for ya.

 

[midwestpa24]

what is "PC"?

I figured it was Plane Commander or Pilot Commander, since the military likes its ranks. I know I've heard the term Aircraft Commander used.

 

[Velocity173]

That seems so counterintuitive to what I would think would be the norm.
I really appreciate hearing from you guys in the know (helo pilots), especially after hearing co-workers regurgitate the crap they hear from the media.

Part of the problem in not slowing down is not realizing how far down the hole you’ve gotten yourself.

When I view the computer reenactment that @mr_happyland made, I can picture myself in that situation because I’ve been in the hurt locker like that before. I can picture that final gap on 101 with the tops of the hills being obscured. Saying to myself, if I can get through this pass, I’m home free. But, I’m also keenly aware that this highway is leading me up to the clouds. I know that I can’t go barreling through that pass at cruise speed. Also I’m brainstorming, are there wires strung across the pass? Where are my cell towers? Where are my guy wires? Gotta get this thing slowed up but unlike an airplane, I’ve got to guard against ballooning up in the decel. Got plenty of power, can bring it to a hover if necessary. I peak through the pass, trying to find any sort of opening on the other side to continue. It looks like a milky mess and my only out is behind me. Since I’m only doing 70-80 kts, a quick right 180 back to the east and call it quits for the day. If able, get high enough to pick up an IFR from SOCAL and go to CMA...if certified for SPIFR.

So that’s the mindset of a typical helo guy that is allowed to operate in 1/2 mile and CoC. I think for most GA fixed wing folks it’s hard to relate being in that situation because they don’t have the latitude we have in altitude or weather. Things can get ugly in a hurry.

 

[Velocity173]

I figured it was Plane Commander or Pilot Commander, since the military likes its ranks. I know I've heard the term Aircraft Commander used.

I believe the Navy refers the PIC as HAC or Helicopter Aircraft Commander.

Plenty of other designations as well. IP-Instructor Pilot. IE-Instrument Examiner. SP-Standardization Pilot, MP-maintenance test pilot, etc, etc.

 

[redtail]

I've spent more hours sleeping in helicopters after being forced to land due to weather than a lot of pilots have flying them...

I'm glad you mentioned this. At least I know that I provided the correct answer to my co-worker who asked me what could the accident pilot have done if he found himself in unexpected fog/clouds with no visibility.

In fact, when he comes in to relieve me tonight, I'm going to show him your post.
Thanks

 

[SToL]

That seems so counterintuitive to what I would think would be the norm.
I really appreciate hearing from you guys in the know (helo pilots), especially after hearing co-workers regurgitate the crap they hear from the media.

Just to be clear, because sometimes the msg gets lost in the translation, particularly on these forums. No one is suggesting you should be slowing down in IMC.

We're talking about flying in Marginal VFR conditions. 1/2 mile and up, Slow down. Take your time, hover if you want, land if you have to.

The faster you go, the less time you have to react and the more you're going to balloon when you try to slow down. At the speeds he was going he most probably would have ballooned even with full collective down and even slight back pressure on the cyclic.

Once you've screwed the pooch and entered IMC, by all means, get on the gauges, climb at best climb speed towards lower terrain and start communicating when able.

 

[RyanB]

Except that they're right.

LOL How do any of us know who’s right and who’s wrong? It’s all speculation at this point, bud.

 

[eman1200]

Really? Because it doesn't look that to me.

I don't know what that image is supposed to tell me.

 

[SToL]

I've spent more hours sleeping in helicopters after being forced to land due to weather than a lot of pilots have flying them...

That's never fun, but it's even less fun when your mechanic snores like a wounded water buffalo. Ask me how I know what a wounded water buffalo sounds like.

 

[Rcmutz]

With all this talk about the autopilot, how do we know it didn’t fail, or was even being used? Without out a black box, we may never know and will be left with the default “pilot error”.

Not necessarily. A lot of autopilots, especially ones that are required for stability reasons (and this one evidently is based upon a prior posters knowledge of the system) have non-volatile memory which stores certain parameters used internal to the box. If this box had NVM, it might be recoverable, and shed some light on things.

 

[redtail]

Just to be clear, because sometimes the msg gets lost in the translation, particularly on these forums. No one is suggesting you should be slowing down in IMC.

We're talking about flying in Marginal VFR conditions. 1/2 mile and up, Slow down. Take your time, hover if you want, land if you have to.

The faster you go, the less time you have to react and the more you're going to balloon when you try to slow down. At the speeds he was going he most probably would have ballooned even with full collective down and even slight back pressure on the cyclic.

Once you've screwed the pooch and entered IMC, by all means, get on the gauges, climb at best climb speed towards lower terrain and start communicating when able.

Thanks.
Oh it was clear to me from the get-go, especially when flying that close to terrain in a mountainous area!

 

[RyanB]

Not necessarily. A lot of autopilots, especially ones that are required for stability reasons (and this one evidently is based upon a prior posters knowledge of the system) have non-volatile memory which stores certain parameters used internal to the box. If this box had NVM, it might be recoverable, and shed some light on things.

It should.

 

[Bell206]

If this box had NVM, it might be recoverable,

That's quite possible. Unfortunately, all those boxes are mounted in the nose area and based on some of the scene pics that show pieces of that nose area I doubt any survived in a recoverable condition. But you never know.......

 

[Doc Holliday]

That's quite possible. Unfortunately, all those boxes are mounted in the nose area and based on some of the scene pics that show pieces of that nose area I doubt any survived in a recoverable condition. But you never know.......

The helicopter did have Spidertracks installed. Some versions of this have a virtual FDR mode.

 

[Bell206]

The helicopter did have Spidertracks installed.

Hopefully their subscription was paid up.....

 

[PaulS]

snip know what I'm saying?

View attachment 82346

I didn't until I saw the illustrations, nice work.

 

[eman1200]

I didn't until I saw the illustrations, nice work.

My 6 year old nephew thanks you.