KBID 7/30/2025

Says the plane ‘made several passes before crashing’. Sounds like it happened during landing.

I see 2500’ of pavement, temps near mid 80’s or so at 12:50.
 
I think it is N961DA. From Flight Aware, it looks like they made three attempts at Runway 10, but wound up short of the runway on the third attempt. METAR for 1556Z was 230 at 7 (thus favoring Runway 28), but the prior METAR was VRB at 3 so maybe winds were shifting. I fly there frequently but avoid it when winds or weather are squirrelly. I have landed there when the surface wind report favored Runway 10 but discovered a tailwind at 500-600' on approach, and since the runway is short (2,500') there is not much room to float or land long. One plus for the airport is that there is not much in the way of obstructions at either end of the runway (the airport sits up on a small plateau). (FWIW, it seems to be more common for incidents at the airport to be the result of overrunning the runway as opposed to landing short).
 
Kitch said:

Never been personally, but from what I understand it can be a little finicky sometimes.
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With light winds out of the southwest today and the temperatures approaching 90 F, runway 28 would be the likely choice. R/W 28 is 2500' and slightly up hill, located on the crest of this small island, 108' above sea level.

It's reputation for being "finicky" is probably earned during windy final approaches when downdrafts are encountered due to the wind coming up and over the plateau and surprising unsuspecting pilots with a downdraft requiring some footwork and a blast of power to make the runway.

The wind shouldn't have been an issue on takeoff or landing today. But OAT and weight may have played a part. Or, pilot technique.
 
I have been there many times and it can be tricky,especially if a pilot hasn’t been there before. Being on a plateau the runway looks shorter than it is.might have been a wiser choice after the missed landing to divert to Westerly with multiple runways.
 
From reading an article in the Block Island Times, it appears the plane came to rest off the end of Connecticut Avenue, which puts it just over the far end (and somewhat to the left) of Runway 10 (as opposed to landing short). So, unclear whether it landed long and ran off the end, or attempted an unsuccessful go-around.
 
At a short runway like that I was taught to overly both directions and TIME the transition along the runway. That determines the ACTUAL wind. Saved my butt twice. Sad, he knew something wasn't right.

CAS*(t1-t2)/(t1+t2) is the wind component. Shorter leg is the downwind leg....
 
I’m sure glad I didn’t realize it was “tricky” when I flew there with my in-laws on their first flight with me.
 
bbchien said:
At a short runway like that I was taught to overly both directions and TIME the transition along the runway. That determines the ACTUAL wind. Saved my butt twice. Sad, he knew something wasn't right.

CAS*(t1-t2)/(t1+t2) is the wind component. Shorter leg is the downwind leg....
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I'm training out of KHFD and plan to go there once I finish my training. The first time will be with my instructor, then family. Is there a wind sock there? Should the sock not be trusted? I like the overfly technique, and intend to use it.
 
Tony R said:
I'm training out of KHFD and plan to go there once I finish my training. The first time will be with my instructor, then family. Is there a wind sock there? Should the sock not be trusted? I like the overfly technique, and intend to use it.
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You might or might not. Unless things have changed greatly since the last time I was there, BID is a “destination.” It gets incredibly busy on a nice day. There will be plenty of reports and multiple pilots in front and behind you. First time I flew in (with my wife that first spring after earning my private) they directed me to a parking spot between two airplanes saying, “park there if you can fit.” I was in a high wing. Good thing since a low wing would not have fit.

I alway have a bit of a problem with crash threads that appear to blame the airport. Yes, it’s on a bit of a plateau. That can mean a downdraft on final. Short tends to be in the eye of the beholder - what the pilot is used to rather than what the airport is capable of. I don’t know what you are training in, but a 172 or Cherokee should be able to come to a stop halfway down the runway without using short-field technique. Are you using 11/29 at HFD for short field practice?
 
midlifeflyer said:
I alway have a bit of a problem with crash threads that appear to blame the airport. Yes, it’s on a bit of a plateau. That can mean a downdraft on final.
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Not blaming the terrain or BID airport being located on a hilltop... it is what it is. A 100' rise in elevation in a short lateral distance from the ocean is not insignificant, and should be something new pilots should be made aware of before they begin taking passengers along during their initial treks out into the hinterlands. Plus, the winds off the ocean are always stronger where they make landfall and change directions.

My point is many new pilots who learn how to fly in flat country are not exposed, taught or even aware about the potential for downdrafts on short final due to moderate or stronger winds that can occur at airports located on hilltops. In my case had to figure it out myself, one of those early "license to learn" inspired moments, experienced all alone.

However, in this particular crash I doubt the wind was strong enough to have been even a casual factor.
 
Rick A said:
Not blaming the terrain or BID airport being located on a hilltop... it is what it is. A 100' rise in elevation in a short lateral distance from the ocean is not insignificant, and should be something new pilots should be made aware of before they begin taking passengers along during their initial treks out into the hinterlands. Plus, the winds off the ocean are always stronger where they make landfall and change directions.

My point is many new pilots who learn how to fly in flat country are not exposed, taught or even aware about the potential for downdrafts on short final due to moderate or stronger winds that can occur at airports located on hilltops. In my case had to figure it out myself, one of those early "license to learn" inspired moments, experienced all alone.

However, in this particular crash I doubt the wind was strong enough to have been even a casual factor.
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I agree and I wasn't referring to any specific post.
 
Tony R said:
I'm training out of KHFD and plan to go there once I finish my training. The first time will be with my instructor, then family. Is there a wind sock there? Should the sock not be trusted? I like the overfly technique, and intend to use it.
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I had the chance to fly there with my CFI during my training (training out of KOWD), and it was my first flight after my PPL. (I had also flown there several times on NE Air from Westerly so I had some familiarity with the airport). The airport has an AWOS so you can get up-to-the-minute wind reports without the need to overfly to see the windsock (which does exist on the south side of the field). There is also a PAPI for each runway direction (assuming it's in service). Other poster is correct that on a nice day, many people use KBID either as a destination, breakfast spot, or bucket-list flight, so it can be busy. My strong preference is to look for light wind days and fly first thing in the morning (less crowded), especially if it's your first trip. If you find the winds are tricky or you're not comfortable with the short runway, etc., don't be too proud to call it off and try again another day. I've had days where I've taken off, gotten the AWOS at Block, and diverted to another airport.

If winds favor Runway 28 (as they often do) and you are coming from the north, the common practice is to enter the pattern by crossing over the field and turning downwind. (Nobody will be entering the pattern from the south (ocean), but sometimes you will have a plane coming from Long Island to the west, so you need to be mindful for that). Once you turn downwind, you'll almost immediately be abeam your landing spot, so your transition from flying the pattern to starting your landing process will be quicker than at other airports. If NE Air is in the pattern (they identify as "Islander" on the CTAF), they often fly very tight patterns and I usually adjust my arrival to enter the pattern behind them and stay out of their way.

They have expanded the paved portion of the ramp so there is more parking available, and also they have a stretch of grass to the east of the pavement where they will park planes on a busy day. The first time I flew with my wife, it was a trip to Block where I had to perform a go-around (I had warned her that was possible) because I was way too high while turning final. Also my first flight with my daughter, too (but no go-around that time).
 
ldhilljr13 said:
The first time I flew with my wife, it was a trip to Block where I had to perform a go-around (I had warned her that was possible) because I was way too high while turning final.
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Me too! I swear that runway can provide a strong vertical lift on approach to runway 10….

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Me too! I swear that runway can provide a strong vertical lift on approach to runway 10….
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With my wife, it was a go-around on Runway 28 (just poor piloting to blame). But I agree, on Runway 10, the terrain dips sharply just before the approach end (to accommodate the passing road) and then rises again, so with winds out of the east, one can catch a disconcerting updraft on short final. I have a similar experience on Runway 14 at 1B9 (Mansfield, MA), where a hill on the approach causes an updraft at about the exact point I want to be descending.
 
Completely irrelevant to this thread, but discussions of BID always bring up the memory of the time I never saw Block Island at all. It was my required IFR cross country and what was then the NDB RWY 10 approach resulted in a real missed when we saw nothing at minimums.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Completely irrelevant to this thread, but discussions of BID always bring up the memory of the time I never saw Block Island at all. It was my required IFR cross country and what was then the NDB RWY 10 approach resulted in a real missed when we saw nothing at minimums.
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Also mostly irrelevant but I am often surprised by how many commercial flights I take (and IFR clearance read-backs I hear) that have the Sandy Point VOR (SEY) in the route, which of course is located on Block Island. (Kind of like the migrating birds that use the island as a waypoint . . . ).
 
midlifeflyer said:
Completely irrelevant to this thread, but discussions of BID always bring up the memory of the time I never saw Block Island at all. It was my required IFR cross country and what was then the NDB RWY 10 approach resulted in a real missed when we saw nothing at minimums.
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Me too. My first paying job other than flight instruction was flying a Cherokee Six for some folks that owned houses on the island. I can remember one approach where I had to go missed that I never even got down into the clouds. Those islands make their own weather.
 
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ldhilljr13 said:
Also mostly irrelevant but I am often surprised by how many commercial flights I take (and IFR clearance read-backs I hear) that have the Sandy Point VOR (SEY) in the route, which of course is located on Block Island. (Kind of like the migrating birds that use the island as a waypoint . . . ).
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I suspect it's a gateway waypoint. Here's a list of routes and procedures using SEY

1753986900990.png
 
If you look at the three trips around the pattern on flightaware, it sure looks like he was landing downwind. The "downwind" legs (relative to pattern nomenclature) are about 20kts slower than on each final. Well north of Archer short final speeds. Assuming he was flying proper airspeeds, I'd guess he had a 10 to 15 kt tailwind.
 
Check out the reported altitudes on the two go-arounds. https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N961DA

After the first go-around the highest reported altitude is 400'. On the final lap the highest reported altitude is 700'. Pretty low.

A pilot on-island saw him fly over and said he appeared to be low at about 300' AGL in the pattern so the ADS-B altitudes are likely in the right ballpark.

Having flown into Block many times, I find the runway looks pretty short but it's not particularly dangerous or difficult. Two of the people on board (rated pilots) had experience landing there before (according to the Times Union).
 
midlifeflyer said:
You might or might not. Unless things have changed greatly since the last time I was there, BID is a “destination.” It gets incredibly busy on a nice day. There will be plenty of reports and multiple pilots in front and behind you. First time I flew in (with my wife that first spring after earning my private) they directed me to a parking spot between two airplanes saying, “park there if you can fit.” I was in a high wing. Good thing since a low wing would not have fit.

I alway have a bit of a problem with crash threads that appear to blame the airport. Yes, it’s on a bit of a plateau. That can mean a downdraft on final. Short tends to be in the eye of the beholder - what the pilot is used to rather than what the airport is capable of. I don’t know what you are training in, but a 172 or Cherokee should be able to come to a stop halfway down the runway without using short-field technique. Are you using 11/29 at HFD for short field practice?
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No only 2/20. We are going to hit Simsbury 4B9 for short stuff. I started at Simsbury then my office moved downtown so Brainard is really convenient. There is a grumpy controller at KHFD and he Gruffs about 11/29.
 
Tony R said:
No only 2/20. We are going to hit Simsbury 4B9 for short stuff. I started at Simsbury then my office moved downtown so Brainard is really convenient. There is a grumpy controller at KHFD and he Gruffs about 11/29.
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You should try Ellington 7B9 too. I did my instrument training there.
 
Preliminary out. Tried to land 10 w a tailwind. Went around first go after seeing another pilot take off on 28, proceeded to still attempt to land on 10. Came in long and hit, touched down 1500 down the runway and hit trees at the end. Sad

*** Preliminary Report ***

On July 30, 2025, about 1210 eastern daylight time, a Piper PA-28-181, N961DA, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident near Block Island, Rhode Island. The pilot sustained serious injuries, one passenger received minor injuries, and one passenger was fatally injured. The airplane was operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight.

The flight departed Albany International Airport (ALB), Albany, New York, about 1050, enroute to Block Island State Airport (BID), Block Island, Rhode Island. The pilot reported that the purpose of the flight was to fly with two passengers to BID for lunch. About 20 nautical miles (nm) from BID, the pilot began his descent and obtained the automated weather information.

At 1156, the automated weather observation at BID recorded wind from 230° at 7 knots, which corresponded to a tailwind and crosswind component for landing on runway 10.

The pilot reported that he entered the left downwind leg of the traffic pattern for runway 10, and on the final approach leg of the traffic pattern, he observed an airplane departing runway 28 and initiated a go-around. During a second approach, he turned from the downwind leg to final approach leg of the traffic pattern too close to the runway and initiated another go-around. After a third approach to runway 10, the airplane touched down with full flaps about 1,500 ft down the 2,500-ft-long runway. As the pilot applied the brakes, the airplane’s right wing lifted due to a gust of wind. There was insufficient runway remaining for a go-around, the airplane overran the runway and impacted trees.

Preliminary ADS-B data indicated the airplane crossed the runway threshold at 174 ft altitude and 104 knots groundspeed, touched down at 83 knots, and exited the runway at 73 knots. The final recorded point was about 55 ft from the end of the overrun area at 70 knots.

Preliminary air traffic control (ATC) audio indicated the pilot was receiving visual flight rules (VFR) advisories from Providence Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON). About 20 nm from BID, ATC advised that radar services were terminated, to “squawk” VFR, and frequency change was approved. Although the pilot acknowledged, he remained on the Providence TRACON frequency and reported his position in the BID traffic pattern for two of three approaches. ATC advised him several times that he was transmitting on the incorrect frequency and provided the correct advisory frequency.

The overrun area of runway 10 was a flat grassy surface about 243 ft long at an elevation of about 102 ft mean sea level (msl). Three linear tire impressions, consistent with landing gear, were observed about 25 ft from the end of the overrun area on a 099° magnetic heading. No tire friction marks were observed on the runway or overrun before that point. The airplane came to rest inverted on a 209° magnetic heading about 640 ft east of the departure end of runway 10 at an elevation of about 40 ft msl. All major components of the airplane were located at the accident site.

The first identified point of impact was a tree canopy about 50 ft above ground level and 467 ft from the departure end of the runway. Several tree branches exhibited angular cuts with black transfer marks. A ground impression containing the separated nose landing gear was located about 128 ft from the first impact point and 45 ft from the main wreckage. The wreckage path was oriented on a 096° magnetic heading and about 173 ft long. Vegetation staining consistent with fuel exposure was observed along the debris path.

Examination of the airframe and engine revealed that flight control continuity was established from the cockpit to all the flight control surfaces, and the flap position was noted at 40°. The empennage exhibited impact damage and the stabilator trim was noted in a partial nose-down trim setting. Both wings exhibited impact damage, and the left wing was partially separated from the fuselage. Both fuel tanks were breached from impact forces. Fuel system continuity was established, and fuel consistent in color and odor to 100LL aviation gasoline was observed in the system.

The engine remained attached to the engine mount. Both magnetos produced spark from their ignition towers during hand rotation of their attached drive gears. Crankshaft and valvetrain continuity were established, and compression and suction were obtained on all four cylinders. The propeller remained attached to the engine with chordwise abrasion and leading-edge damage noted to both propeller blades.

The wreckage was retained for further examination.
 
AV8R_87 said:
JFC, even subtracting the 10kt tail wind, what was he doing crossing the threshold at 94 indicated? That's pretty much economy cruise speed.
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Just seems bad adm/pilot skills all around. I will be curious to learn the pilots flying history in the final report
 
I wonder what he thought the departing pilot on 28 knew that he did not?

The guy on the ground should know what the wind is better than a pilot arriving.
 
This airport sits on the top of a small hill that rises up a steep hill (~100') onto a flat plateau where the runway is located.

With a light tailwind from the southwest reported at the airport, the pilot may have encountered an updraft on short final, then lowered the nose without reducing the power enough to compensate for the resultant increase in airspeed. This would explain the significant float down the runway in ground effect, and lack of skid marks.

The wind reported on the airport was likely somewhat sheltered from the full effects of the wind, that if measured on the beach at the bottom of the hill may have been significantly higher in velocity, creating an updraft.
 
geezer said:
I wonder what he thought the departing pilot on 28 knew that he did not?

The guy on the ground should know what the wind is better than a pilot arriving.
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They should, but then sometimes you make the decision that a slightly downwind takeoff isn’t ideal, but a longer taxi also isn’t ideal and takeoff on the “wrong” runway - I did that a few weeks ago.
 
Partly radio problem, landing guy was still on ATC frequency, even though they had approved frequency change more than once.

With the local frequency, he could have enquired the reason for 28 departure, and learned the ground level wind.

He had flown a long way to land there, it was not his normal flying area, local knowledge should be accessed if available. The go around gave him plenty of time to ask, unless he did not want his pax to know that he was not a complete expert.

Regardless, they know now.
 
Doesn’t seem like the tailwind was a big factor here. 7 kts at 230 degrees translates to just a 4 kt tailwind, which is pretty negligible. I’d say the real problem was trying to land the plane at cruise airspeed and using up half the runway before touchdown.
 
Around water there is no better a wind direction indicator than that is my experience.
 
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