Just starting out

Jon Gunther

Jon Gunther

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Jon Gunther
Hello all, I finally have the means available to start working towards my dream of flying. I am currently 12 years into my military career and have decided to use the next 8 to work towards becoming a professional pilot when I get out. I know this is not an easy dream but I want to do it.

So my question is about the way to achieve my goal. Should I just pick a school and start flying or should I look at a degree plan that includes flying? I live in Oklahoma and there are a few flying schools near by to just fly. There is also a professional pilot program at OU that has a business degree built into the program.

Thank you for any info you can give me
 
My guess it that you're going to overpay for both with the "joint" program. Does the job pay for any of it?

BTW, thanks for fighting the good fight for us!
 
Are you in the National Guard because if you're not, you have to figure in that you're not going to be staying in Oklahoma forever. How much will tuition assistance or the GI Bill pay?
 
Does Tinker have an Aero Club? That might be the way to go if they have one.
 
Is there an avenue for you to fly for the military? That's a heck of a training course. Regionals are currently hiring rotary wing folks for the right seat, so the door is pretty far open today (maybe not tomorrow) if you have military flight experience and check the appropriate civilian boxes.
 
I have a friend of mine (he might even be a member here, he's been on Purple and Red for sure) that was in the same boat as the OP. He went and got his ratings on his own (I'm sure he used the GI Bill, but didn't go to a university pilot mill). He bought a C-150 and built a bunch of hours in it. He provided instruction as well. He also entered into a partnership with another military friend of his (another Red Boarder) and built up hours in that.

By the time he retired, he had built up enough hours to be hireable. He now flies with the same folks I do, which his goal from the beginning.

So, all that being said, there is merit to your plan if you stick with it.
 
Tinker does not have an aero club.

I am active duty, tuition assistance will pay for regular classes but not the flying part if I go for the OU program.

No option to fly for the military, the Air Force does not have any programs for that.

From my research, I should have enough saved up to knock out my ppl and instrument right off the bat
 
Jon Gunther said:
Tinker does not have an aero club.

I am active duty, tuition assistance will pay for regular classes but not the flying part if I go for the OU program.

No option to fly for the military, the Air Force does not have any programs for that.

From my research, I should have enough saved up to knock out my ppl and instrument right off the bat
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See if you can work with a Part 141 school that's VA approved. Assuming nothing has changed in the last bunch of years, they should be able to help you out once you have your private ticket.
 
kyleb said:
Is there an avenue for you to fly for the military? That's a heck of a training course. Regionals are currently hiring rotary wing folks for the right seat, so the door is pretty far open today (maybe not tomorrow) if you have military flight experience and check the appropriate civilian boxes.
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Note: Some regionals are. Not all. And most will require some fixed wing time on top of it. Just adding for clarity. OP should do the research.
 
Pick a school and start flying. You’ll start to learn immediately and begin to build your logbook required hours. And your ending instructor may not be the same as your beginning anyway, so it may not matter (plus it’s good to fly with different CFIs). Go for it. Start today.
 
Since our intrepid OP is based in OKC, I wonder if folks could hire him to stand behind the medical reviewers, giving the heebie jeebies, until they give up and pull the application out of the stack and take action.

(it's satire folks... without the 6PC video)
 
JCranford said:
The Air Force doesn't have any programs for flying?? That's weird...
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No programs for training someone from the beginning outside of formal Air Force flight training. That is highly competitive, college degree required, etc etc. They don't have a program IOW to train someone for their PPC. They're in the business of training military pilots. The closest is an Aero Club on or near the base, but not all bases have aero clubs. CAP is another avenue I suppose.
 
JCranford said:
The Air Force doesn't have any programs for flying?? That's weird...
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The only program for enlisted members is the drone pilots, and I am in a critically manned career field and they won't let me apply.
 
Hi @Jon Gunther , welcome to POA and welcome to OKC!

It has been several years since I last used Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits. I know they have changed some of the flight training rules in recent years due to a lot of abuse of the system. However, it does seem like you can use Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits while still on active duty:

https://gibill.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/938/kw/active duty/related/1

This may help you out greatly.

As you have likely read on the GI Bill website, the GI Bill will pay for flight training (post-private pilot), however it does have to be at a VA-approved school. In Oklahoma, there are three - University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma Aviation (at Wiley Post airport), and Riverside Flight Center (in Tulsa).

Search tool here: https://inquiry.vba.va.gov/weamspub/buildSearchInstitutionCriteria.do

It used to be that you could use the GI Bill to get your Private Pilot certificate, but only if you were getting it as part of a degree program at an approved college. This rule may have changed in the last few years, I see varying answers on a quick Google search. If I were you, I'd call the OU aviation department - they should know ALL about this topic.

I will mention something regarding OU. I have tried a few times over the years to enroll in "non-degree program" flight training there - to get a multi-engine rating or something like that, but not as a college student. Each time I ended up going somewhere else due to them requiring me to follow their regular scheduling methods - in other words, I would have to commit to being there, for example, M-W-F from 3:30 to 5:00 (that was the latest block they offered). I just couldn't pull that off with a full-time job. There was no indication of them allowing any flexibility like other schools do. I'm sure their system is based around most of the students being college students, and it probably works great for that - but not for me.

Oklahoma Aviation has a good program, I have flown a little with them and am friends with their Chief Instructor. Their fleet is mostly comprised of very new, very nice aircraft. This of course means their rates are higher than other places with older aircraft.

If you're not able to use GI Bill money, then it doesn't matter where you go. Sundance Airport has a flight school. Wiley Post has Oklahoma Aviation and Air One. Guthrie has Blue Skies Flight School. I think Shawnee has a flight school, I hear their airplanes on the radio often enough!

If you really want to get things knocked out quick, you can take some leave from the military and travel to one of the bazillion schools in Texas for a few weeks, but I am not able to give you advice on those.

It's good that you're planning ahead - you have 8 years to get things done. Just stay on target and you won't have a problem. Assuming you don't currently have a degree (judging by some of your statements), then I would definitely take advantage of Tuition Assistance to get that done while you're in. I always recommend people get a degree in something NOT aviation-related - something else you're interested in - so that there is a backup plan if being a professional pilot doesn't work out (you don't like it, or the economy tanks and everyone gets furloughed, or you develop a medical condition, or ... etc.)

I also recommend you listen to Carl Valeri's Aviation Careers Podcast, www.aviationcareerspodcast.com. Carl is a friend of mine, a current airline pilot, and spends lots of time answering questions and discussing situations very similar to yours. Tons of useful information. (I have been a guest a few times and am also a regular co-host on his other podcast, stuckmicavcast.com)

Good luck and let me know if you have any questions!
 
Thank you @RussR. You are correct in your assumption that I do not currently have a degree. I have been bouncing around what I wanted to major in. Before the military I had dreamed of a degree in aerospace engineering. Lately I have considered mechanical due to more potential fields of use. I can use some GI benefits but I decided my son could use them more so I transferred then to him, but it is still an option if I need them.

Do you know anything on the Cirrus program at Wiley Post? From the little info on there website it sounds like they combine ppl and instrument into one program.
 
If you're going to transfer your GI Bill benefits to your son, then I would make sure to completely maximize the use of Tuition Assistance to get your degree before you retire.

Jon Gunther said:
Do you know anything on the Cirrus program at Wiley Post? From the little info on there website it sounds like they combine ppl and instrument into one program.
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That would be at Oklahoma Aviation. I do not know anything specific about their Cirrus program. However, being as it is entirely in Cirrus SR22's, it will undoubtedly be much more expensive than other options.
 
That makes sense. Im leaning towards the air one program, since they offer a discount for paying up front. Lots more research to do. I plan on getting my physical done by the end of Feb and start flying end of March. Again thank you for the information.
 
Next question, One of my pilot friends suggested I get a class 2 physical over the class 3 since I plan on working towards my commercial license. Do you guys agree with this?
 
Jon Gunther said:
since they offer a discount for paying up front
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If they are offering the discount because you must pay 100% of the expected costs up front, this is never never a good idea. We have many many stories of this not ending well, the school shutting down, and students out tens of thousands of dollars and no pilots license to show for it. And zero means of recovering their funds.

Never Never Never pay for the entire flight training program up front.

However, if they are offering a discount if you maintain a positive balance of about $500 to $1000, then this can be more palatable as you are only risking that much smaller amount should they shut down.

I would also read the contract to look for how you get your money back should you leave the program before you finish, and how you get your money back if you finish and still have something in your account.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
June-28-Danger-Will-Robinson-e1435340081425.jpg


If they are offering the discount because you must pay 100% of the expected costs up front, this is never never a good idea. We have many many stories of this not ending well, the school shutting down, and students out tens of thousands of dollars and no pilots license to show for it. And zero means of recovering their funds.

Never Never Never pay for the entire flight training program up front.

However, if they are offering a discount if you maintain a positive balance of about $500 to $1000, then this can be more palatable as you are only risking that much smaller amount should they shut down.

I would also read the contract to look for how you get your money back should you leave the program before you finish, and how you get your money back if you finish and still have something in your account.
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THIS! I know of two FAs at the airline I was at that paid upfront, somewhere in FL around Orlando I think, and the school went out of business and they lost their money. Don't do it @Jon Gunther , please.
 
The Private Pilot's license is the same thing no matter what airplane is used to do it in.

My advice is to avoid the fancy new aircraft with the glass avionics and use the schools that will take the VA funds but have older well maintained airplanes with the 6-pack round dial instruments.

PPL needs to focus on stick/rudder, eyes out the window, and sensing changes through eyes/ears/butt.... not watching the pretty pictures on the glass screen.

Older airplanes without new fancy avionics will rent out for less money. Allowing you to obtain your PPL and still have lots of flying budget left over.

Once you have the PPL and a good batch of hours afterwards, then you can explore training in the fancier and more expensive aircraft.
 
@Jon Gunther --- Something you can do right now on the free and cheap is attend every local aviation seminar being offered. Go to www.faasafety.gov and create a login. Once that's done, there is a link to find the aviation seminars with your region. 95% of them are free, and 100% of them are extremely informative, even for student pilots just starting out.

More importantly, it gives you a chance to build a network of pilots, instructors, and mentors. Many of them would likely offer opportunities to go fly to $100 pancakes and hamburgers. And you will meet folks local to you who are familiar with the local resources and will refer you to the right people to solve the current need.
 
Jon Gunther said:
Next question, One of my pilot friends suggested I get a class 2 physical over the class 3 since I plan on working towards my commercial license. Do you guys agree with this?
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You should be able to get your physical at the base hospital I think. When I was an USAF controller the Flight Surgeon office did our 2nd Class physicals.
 
jordane93 said:
His goal is to be a professional pilot. Most jobs require a first class medical.
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True. But he has 500 plus hours to go before he can be hired as a pro. And doing that within the year that a first is good for is gonna be expensive.

Why not wait until he is crossing 500 hours and get it then? Meanwhile stay with the more relaxed standards of a third and train up.
 
AggieMike88 said:
True. But he has 500 plus hours to go before he can be hired as a pro. And doing that within the year that a first is good for is gonna be expensive.

Why not wait until he is crossing 500 hours and get it then? Meanwhile stay with the more relaxed standards of a third and train up.
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Better to know he can hold a first class medical before he drops a ton of money and time. The requirements aren’t even that much stricter for a first class medical. I’ve never gotten another medical other than a first class medical. Is a third class really that much cheaper than a first class?
 
Can't speak to cost as I've only done thirds..

But I'm also thinking from the point of view of not getting denied/deferred because the standards of a first cannot be met, but a third could be met. Get the third, get the training and 200-300 hours, then upgrade as needed.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Can't speak to cost as I've only done thirds..

But I'm also thinking from the point of view of not getting denied/deferred because the standards of a first cannot be met, but a third could be met. Get the third, get the training and 200-300 hours, then upgrade as needed.
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If he’s been in the military for 12 years I think it’s safe to say he can pass the joke of a medical that is the FAA first class lol. I get what you’re saying though.
 
Thank you all for the info. As for the part 61 vs 141, since the va will not help with my ppl does it matter which school I use?
 
@Jon Gunther --- Regarding the medical...

The FAA medical process can have its own holy hell of traps and landmines for the unprepared applicant.

Whether you decide to apply for a first, second, or third class, educate yourself 1000% on what the FAA wants to know and how anything in your medical history is going to change the simplicity and difficulty of obtaining the medical.

Some things many consider no big deal are big deals with the FAA. Things like schools/parents/unknowing MD's feeding you ADD/ADHD meds when you were a kid without any other evaluation other than "he has too much energy and doesn't pay attention". Things like a passing comment to your family doc of "I feel a little depressed" and he issues you some SSRI's.

Other things many consider no big deal are "young stud" encounters with law enforcement that involved alcohol and controlled substances. Those are definitely big deals with the FAA and they are going to want to know lots of details about these encounters.


Many applicants come here complaining that their application was deferred or denied because they went to their AME blindly not knowing anything about the process except to fill out an online form and pay the doctor his fee.

Don't be one of these applicants. Learn about the process and what the FAA wants. If you are uncertain of what to do because you have a situation in your history that is going to cause speedbumps or roadblocks, many of us know the right expert(s) to help you.

Just never go into the AME like the guy who throws a dart blindfolded, hoping it will the bullseye and not the bartender.
 
Jon Gunther said:
Thank you all for the info. As for the part 61 vs 141, since the va will not help with my ppl does it matter which school I use?
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No. Both get you to the end goal.

Part 141 is a very rigid curriculum that must be approved by the FAA. Often used by the academies that are feeders to the airline. And they are often for the students who can be there full time with little else to do than study the required knowledge and train nearly every day. Many Part 141's are "pay significant amount upfront" places

Part 61 is a little more relaxed and is available everywhere, including with independent instructors. You can train at your own pace, including repeating a lesson if that helps. Just about all Part 61 instructors are "pay when you finish the lesson" places.

Which you go to has little bearing on future employment. Part 141's often are set up as pipelines to the Regional Airlines (such as Envoy which is American Eagle). But the Part 61's can also lead to a good flying job. Tamara Griffith and Fox Aviation in Justin, TX is a just a little Part 61 school, but very active. Several of her students have gone on to find really good employment in the Part 135 and Part 121 world.
 
Sounds like a part 61 school is what I want then, with the random tdy and deployment possibility.
 
Instructor selection can also make a big difference in your learning experience.

Part 141's are frequently populated by members of their program who are teaching only because the need the hours to qualify for the airline jobs. And while the FAA has granted them the instructor certificate, they have yet to be out in the real world very much and only know what they were taught by the school and their young stud instructor who taught them. The concept of primacy means than they perpetuate what they were taught, even if it's not the proper way or correct information. Much like today's internet news media repeating parts of a story the lifted from someone else without doing any fact checking to see if that part is even true or accurate.

And these young studs are there just long enough to get their interview with the airline and get hired. So you might mesh will with one of these studs, fly with them for 10-ish hours, only to lose them to their new job. Now you must regress and re-mess with a new instructor. @Sinistar had this happen to him four times.

Part 141's often do have the older, crustier instructors who have thousands of hours of real world experience, and if you can link up with one, awesome. But not every place has them or they are in such demand that getting on their schedule is challenging.

Part 61's are populated with a wide range of experience. From the newly minted CFI to the extremely crusty who years ago lost count of how many successful students they taught. I have found the available quality of instructor can be very good if you ask around. And because very few are interested in an airline job, you are more likely to find the right one for you and keep them through the entire process.
 
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Jon Gunther said:
Sounds like a part 61 school is what I want then, with the random tdy and deployment possibility.
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Could be. If you can get busy and get your ground school and written out of the way, could you take a 2 or 3 week leave?

My idea is that if you can, and you find the instructor you like, and said instructor is willing to focus solely on you for 14-21 days (with a day or three for breaks), you could get the PPL done before you TDY or deploy.

Starting, stopping, switching to new school/instructor at the new station will just add to costs and the length of time takes to reach your checkride.
 
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