Jepps Localizer Depiction--Plan-View

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Larry in TN, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    Does the length of the localizer "arrow" on a Jepp ILS approach plate plan-view have any significance? i.e. the location of the "tail" of the arrow.

    It has been suggested that the tail of the arrow indicates that the glideslope will ensure compliance with all crossing restrictions from that point onward on the approach. I questioned that theory as your indicated altitude, on G/S, at each fix will vary based on temperature.

    Thanks...
     
  2. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    No. It is a charting convention, not specific to any approach.

    Bob
     
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  3. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I agree with Bob. The length of the arrow is insignificant. The only place you don't have to worry about minimum altitudes is after the FAF (until you reach DA).
     
  4. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    I don’t have a current Jepp ledgend, but what you are referring may be the symbol for a LOC-DME.
     
  5. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Eh? There's no symbol for a LOC-DME, The arrow in the profile view sort of ends at the ILS FAF. In the plan view it typically extends past the procedure turn depiction. In neither case does its size have any significance.

    The LOC-DME is rarely depicted at all. On the NACO charts it only appears as a vertical line in the profile view in the rare case that it is BEFORE the runway. An example is the IAD ILS or LOC/DME RWY 19R. You need to know where the numbers are going to flip. It's actually the same antenna as for the runway 1L (but is not depicted there because nobody cares as the closest you get to it is 1.7 NM).
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  6. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    Ok, thought you were referring to enroute chart. http://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/aviation/business/ifr-paper-services/glossary-legends.pdf

    See page Symbols-2
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  7. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The second one from the top is a back course arrow that coincidentally has a LOC DME on it. The arrow symbol itself is referring to the back course. The arrow coming out of the balloon with the channel number is pointing to the DME position.

    Again, the DME note there is only because you cross it prior to the runway. In this case, because you are on the backcourse and it's at the same end of the runway as the loc antenna.
     
  8. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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  9. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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  10. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    You can cross the FAF on the Glidesope. It’s the fixes outside that you must comply with the Charted altitude
     
  11. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's what I said.
     
  12. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    You said 'after' the FAF. You do not have to comply with the altitude 'at' the FAF when on the Glideslope. Not being nit picky. I wouldn't want someone to interpret it as when following the Glideslope down on a hot day they would think they would have to level off at the FAF altitude and then get back down and intercept from above. You only have to do that for Fixes 'before' the FAF.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019 at 10:26 AM
  13. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The FAF intercept IS a published minimum altitude.
     
  14. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    No such thing as "FAF intercept." There is Glidesope Intercept Alititude. There is also the thing called PFAF. Read "Glideslope Intercept Altitude" in the Pilot Controller Glossary. Glideslope intercept may happen many miles outside of the FAF. Once you have intercepted the Glideslope you DO NOT have to comply with the FAF altitude as you said in post #3. The Chart we are discussing here tells you that if you are on the Glideslope you will be at 6781 when you cross the FAF. And you will. Your altimeter however may say otherwise depending on the accuracy of the altimeter setting, temperature and instrument error.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019 at 12:56 PM
  15. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Precision FAF is gone with the latest TERPs (8260.3D). FAF is gone too. They are all precise final approach fix. Don't ask me to explain it. Only the FAA can do that.
     
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  16. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Does that mean FAF’s will start disappearing from Approach Charts? References to Final Approach Fix will be removed from the AIM, FAR’s, Instrument Procedures Handbook, Aeronautical Chart Users Guide, written tests etc?
     
  17. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    So far as I know the charts won't change. And, it is still the final approach fix, the precise final approach fix to be exact, whatever that means. An old VOR approach with a FAF now has a precise final approach fix.
     
  18. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So that would make it a non-precision precise final approach fix?
     
  19. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    This is the definition in Appendix B of FAAO 8260.3D:

     
  20. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Yup, or more accurately, a Precise Final Approach Fix for Non Precision Approaches. I've read through it. It's what is called the Precise (not precision) Final Approach Fix. It is used to mark the beginning of the Final Approach Segment. It is only used to construct approaches. It's the point where they begin using final approach math to calculate obstruction clearance and establish minimums. Precise Final Approach Fix and Precision Final Approach Fix are two different, but related things. I figure they shoulda called the the one they use to construct approaches the Precise Final Approach Point or something like that so we didn't end up with two uses of PFAF. Nothing has changed with how PFAF's(precision final approach fix) is depicted on Approach Charts, nor the rules used to fly them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 11:14 AM
  21. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Attached is the pertinent part of the source document for the new RNAV approach for Runway 30 at HAF. Note that PFAF and FAF are used interchangeably in the form which is used by the charting folks (FAA, Jepp, LIDO).
     

    Attached Files:

  22. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Yeah. My guess is that by moving WOHLI a little they were able to get better minimums. Very easy to do on RNAV Approaches and why the depicted Glidepath Intercept Altitude is always right at the FAF. Approaches that have the FAF defined by Outer Markers, NDB's(or a combination, LOM) or Crossing Radials are restricted by where they can actually put the Beacon transmitter antennae on the ground, or where a Radial actually crosses the Localizer. There's only 360 of them and there is space between them. That's why the Glideslope Intercept Altitude depictions are usually a little ways outside the FAF.