It appears Cirrus is already updating the Vision Jet

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by FloridaPilot, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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  2. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Increased ceiling and gross weight...probably a FADEC tune to get a few more pounds of thrust
    Updated avionics and autothrottle
    New cabin interior
     
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  3. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Wow...bet people aren’t happy about losing out on that one
     
  4. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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    Anybody know anybody flying one of these?? Waiting to see one in the flesh!
     
  5. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    don't know anyone specifically but surprisingly I've seen quite a few on random ramps here and there. by quite a few I'm talking probably half a dozen or so.
     
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  6. MountainDude

    MountainDude Pre-Flight

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    Impressive. FL 310 and 300 KTAS.
     
  7. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Cirrus has continually upgraded all of its products. That encourages the buyer of the first model to sell that one and buy the new and improved one, just like buying a car. I hope it works out for them and the jet is a huge success. I know I'd love to have one in my hangar.
     
  8. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    I sat in one at the Scottsdale Aircraft Expo. It’s pretty damn impressive inside. Very roomy.
     
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  9. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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  10. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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  11. RudyP

    RudyP Line Up and Wait

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    Yes- position holders who have not received theirs will now be getting G2s (or can opt out). It seems weird but this is how continuous product improvement works and it’s a very good thing!
     
  12. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    But maybe you or I can get a steal of a deal on a G1?
     
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  13. wayne

    wayne Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yep, next year they'll be only $1.25 million. I can buy as many then as I can now. Zero. :(
     
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  14. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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  15. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    "Never fly the 'A' model of anything...."

    Ron Wanttaja
     
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  16. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

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    ...and here I am just waiting for the Apple AirPods 2 to come out!
     
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  17. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    The funny thing about that is that the company the spewed forth the Studebaker automobile never really went out of business. We had a Lark. I remember it too well.
     
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  18. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #bandozer
    On the whole I doubt if they're too upset. As pointed out above, Cirrus has continually improved their products and regularly comes out with new versions. It's also pretty common to expand certification envelope on aircraft in the first few years after released. What ends up happening is that schedules run late and you can either keep on iterating forever, or actually get the product to market and start selling. Customers want the product, and you need to sell to get money coming in.

    The people who got the first few still got a very nice and very capable aircraft that they've gotten a lot of use out of. Now they can opt to upgrade to the latest, which is what a lot of SR2x owners have done over the years.
     
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  19. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Would upgrading require a whole new aircraft or just some updates to the existing one?
     
  20. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    I'm confident I will own one by the time they get to Generation 100.
     
  21. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #bandozer
    Looking at the specifics of the G2, it seems like they could probably offer the engine reflash as a service bulletin, but may or may not choose to in order to help drive new sales or if there was some aircraft change that could impact aerodynamics that thus makes that a harder cert effort. The other items like updated interior seem to be more or less requiring of a new aircraft.

    When you have various software updates, whether or not they are made available to existing aircraft depends largely on the specifics of certification effort, and then some extent on marketing. Each company is a bit different there.
     
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  22. scottfromboston

    scottfromboston Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Seems to me that there were other changes (lightweighting, pressurization improvements, auto-deploying o2 masks for pax) that would prevent the G1 from being upgraded for the increase in performance (weight, altitude).

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...amps-up-the-vision-jet-includes-autothrottles

    "Bergwall noted that numerous interior upgrades and some panel improvements, but not autothrottles, are available as upgrades to the original models."

    As far as the piston models, since the beginning of G3 (FIKI, Garmin avionics) there hasn't been much change in capability and most changes are upgradeable (lighting, convenience). G5 adds some useful load.
     
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  23. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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  24. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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  25. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    I do t remember but he seemed to think it was a great buy for him.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  26. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    He doesn't likely work for anyone but himself.
     
  27. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Oh I don't doubt that. I never said he worked for anyone.
     
  28. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    I wonder how that would work contractually? Does the G2's cost more?
     
  29. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    To avoid extending the original certification timeline Cirrus chose to limit it to 28,000 ft ceiling (iirc) so it did not have to deal with the added RVSM certification requirements. Now they have fixed that limitation with the G2. That is the biggest and most important of the changes.
     
  30. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Cirrus definitely takes a lot of peoples' money repeatedly... Probably the same people that buy a new car every year or two!

    But the good news is, that makes them depreciate pretty quickly. A nice shiny new SR22 today will cost you somewhere in the neighborhood of $600,000, but you can get a 15-year-old used one starting at about a quarter of that.

    So, I'm saving up a half million bucks so I can afford a Vision jet in 2034. ;)

    :rofl:
     
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  31. Fallsrider

    Fallsrider Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    I wonder the same thing. If you put down a deposit a couple of years ago on a VisionJet, will you be forced to pay the higher price for the g2? I would bet it is in the contract that you would have to. Or you can probably opt out. I doubt very few would, though.
     
  32. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Costs more. Pretty sure a model change before the order book was finished is spelled out in the position contract.
     
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  33. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The new one didn't cost 600 when it was sold. Back then the base price was about 320. So they depreciated by about 50% in 15 years, that's probably in line with anything else that has wheels on it.
     
  34. TheGolfPilot

    TheGolfPilot Line Up and Wait

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    Autothrottle is a pretty big addition

    And it’s only 40 knots slower than it’s single turboprop competitor...
     
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  35. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    There are many, many, many equity delivery positions for sale on controller.com. Some require that you pay the equity plus the transfer fee only. So a lot of folks are "opting out", as the price is a bit steeper (even without G2) than originally forecast. Still, it seems to be a nice little plane, especially if you are fond of pollywogs.
     
  36. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    And half the price.
     
  37. RudyP

    RudyP Line Up and Wait

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    Not really.. The TBM930 is about 20-25 KTS faster and $1.5M more. It's real closest competitor is the PA46 M600 which the SF50 beats by 40KTS, a larger cabin, higher certified ceiling, smaller hangar footprint, more modern design, etc. The M600 will outperform it on range and short field performance though and (the biggie for a lot of wealthy older hobbyist pilots, no type rating required).

    Right now, I'm still leaning towards a C510 Mustang because it is actually 35+ KTS faster, has engine redundancy, FL410, slightly better range and a nice used one can be had for $1.5-1.8M but OpEx is higher and now I'm comparing new vs used (in my personal decision matrix). I will likely upgrade to a Mustang in the next couple of years but if I don't, I will certainly take a look at depreciated used SF50s by then.
     
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  38. N747JB

    N747JB Final Approach

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    But, it's cooler to say you own a jet at a cocktail party! :D:D
     
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  39. TheGolfPilot

    TheGolfPilot Line Up and Wait

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    Cirrus is going to sell a lot of these, so to conversation is totally subjective. But if I needed something that could push my family around at 300 knots I would be looking at comparable performance used TBMs. I wouldn’t touch a meridian Meridians are way to cramp. TBMs have the large door, there are big benefits to that. A used ones stacked with G6000’s and all the other newest toys can be had for less than 1.2.
    I’m not one to brag about my toys at cocktail parties, so swinging around the word jet has no value to me. Actually has a derogatory tone to it, there is a reason farm towns might have 20+ king airs and only 1-2 jets on the field.
     
  40. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #bandozer
    I'm sure Cirrus spelled out very clearly in its contract what the terms were for changes along the way, as I would imagine they expected that.

    I'm seeing more and more people "skip steps" like what you're proposing with similar reasons. The typical progression in the past has been fixed gear piston single, complex piston single, complex piston twin, pressurized piston twin, turboprop twin, twin jet.

    A few things have changed that landscape. For one, you see a lot of areas where you can buy a version of a "skipped step" for a similar price with better capability for the step you normally would've gone for. This is also caused by the differences in what's being produced (essentially piston singles, turboprop singles, and twin jets with the only real GA twin turboprop now being the King Air) and those customers generally wanting something newer. And, of course, comes insurance.

    I'm personally a fan of the old way of doing things. It's the path that I've taken (although I'm in the turboprop twin world, and I don't think I'll ever go to twin jet). What I especially like about it is that you add one major aspect at a time, making each subsequent step easier. Master one thing and move on to the next. Less required instruction/babysitting when you move up, get up to speed faster. When I moved into the MU-2, even being an MU-2, all I needed to do was the required initial training. After that, I was cut loose. Not many people who move into MU-2s can say that.

    Additionally, you get a more complete education on aviation at all levels that way. I think a lot of times people who jump from a naturally aspirated piston single into a pressurized piston twin or turboprop miss out on the fun of low level real weather.

    However, skipping steps makes a lot of sense if you can afford it, have the mission needs, and can get good mentoring to help you with the transition.

    One of my friends recently skipped the turboprop step in favor of a CJ2 after owning a Cessna 340 for a number of years. He's enjoying it and the speed, although "Unable - we're a Citation" will become part of your ATC vernacular.

    Something I'd suggest for consideration as you look at your personal decision matrix. As we all know, winds tend to get stronger as you get up in altitude. Within each altitude range there are some aircraft that are the fastest. I've always had the theory that flying the aircraft that's one of the fastest for its optimal altitude range is a good thing, because it means when you have really rotten headwinds, your relative ground speed loss isn't as bad. This is part of why I like the MU-2. Its real optimal altitude is low flight levels (although I'm normally flying it FL200-250), with 250-275ish KTAS for baby engines. The worst headwind I've had so far has been about 90 kts which, while really bad, I'm still doing no-wind ground speeds for what I saw in the 310. Really, it's pretty rare for me to ever see under 200 ground speed in cruise on the MU-2.

    You won't have that in a C510. Your optimal altitudes will be right in the "Windy AF" realm, and you've got an aircraft that's "slow" for those altitudes. Said friend above was seeing 200 kts GS coming home the other night, 150 kt headwind right on the nose.

    The 414 had the advantage that, being a piston, you didn't get penalized for low altitude flying with respect to fuel burn. I had one trip where the winds were so bad, I flew home from NYC to KC at 2,500 ft the whole way. However the TAS went down significantly still. In the MU-2 the lowest I've chosen to cruise was around 14,000 ft for a super windy day, but I still ended up at FL240 (and cursing the entire time) to stay above clouds/icing. But in spite of that my ground speeds were still what I would see in the 310 on a good day heading that direction.
     
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