Is This Motorist a Jerk?

Captain said:
Riddle me this...

North / South have green. East / West have red. All traffic is stopped. Car IN the intersection turning left. Who has right of way?
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Cars with green lights heading straight through the intersection. The car turning left is the absolutely last person with the right of way - even if in the intersection.
 
JoseCuervo said:
You never enter an intersection unless you have safe passage to clear the intersection.

Tucking in behind another car is dangerous.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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That depends what state you are in. Some states indicate to pull into the middle 2 deep and clear at best rate on red.
 
In Kansas the statutes say:


  • 8-1526: Right-of-way; approaching or entering intersection. (a) When two (2) vehicles approach or enter an intersection from different highways at approximately the same time, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right. (b) The right-of-way rule declared in subsection (a) is modified at through highways and otherwise as stated in this article.
    History: L. 1974, ch. 33, § 8-1526; July 1.
  • 8-1527: Same; turning left. The driver of a vehicle intending to turn to the left within an intersection or into an alley, private road or driveway shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close thereto as to constitute an immediate hazard. History: L. 1974, ch. 33, § 8-1527; July 1.
edit: And here is what it says about a green light:


8-1508: Traffic-control signal legend. Whenever traffic is controlled by traffic-control signals exhibiting different colored lights, or colored lighted arrows, successively one at a time or in combination, only the colors green, red and yellow shall be used, except for special pedestrian signals carrying a word legend, and said lights shall indicate and apply to drivers of vehicles and pedestrians as follows:
(a) Green indication. (1) Vehicular traffic facing a circular green signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left, unless a sign at such place prohibits either such turn; but vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left, shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles and to pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk at the time such signal is exhibited.
 
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At a certain point, if you're asking if everyone around you is a jerk, it might be time to gaze in the mirror.
 
EdFred said:
You may want to confirm the state laws on the entire situation. Some states have a yield to oncoming traffic even if they run the red light, and as stated your state may or may not allow you to legally enter the intersection before it is clear to complete your turn.
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That's the most common standard, and also California law. Traffic here may legally enter the intersection on a red as long as a) a portion of the car is past the threshold prior to the light turning red, or b) after a complete stop, in the case of a right hand turn, or a left turn to a one way street. In all cases the driver is required to ensure the intersection is clear prior to entering.

Getting back to Captain's original scenario, in the case of California law, the opposing driver is oncoming traffic. As long as the truck crossed the threshold on a yellow, it entered the intersection perfectly legally and Captain would have been required to yield to it. If it ran the red light, it would have been in violation but Captain could still conceivably be cited for either an improper left turn or failure to reasonably avoid an accident, should one have occurred.
 
Henning said:
That depends what state you are in. Some states indicate to pull into the middle 2 deep and clear at best rate on red.
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Well, he tucked in behind another car and got T-boned.

That meets my standard of "dangerous" in all 50 states, and many provinces, territories, and villages of undetermined ownership.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Well, he tucked in behind another car and got T-boned.

That meets my standard of "dangerous" in all 50 states, and many provinces, territories, and villages of undetermined ownership.
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I suppose it was vague. The was no collision. I used the letter "T" in the OP to describe how we had stopped...short of impact.

Also, I didn't "tuck in", at least that not how I'd describe it. I came to a stop behind a car in the same lane turning left as well.
 
Captain said:
I suppose it was vague. The was no collision. I used the letter "T" in the OP to describe how we had stopped...short of impact.

Also, I didn't "tuck in", at least that not how I'd describe it. I came to a stop behind a car in the same lane turning left as well.
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I see, it was a capital "T", got it.
 
Captain said:
Also, I didn't "tuck in", at least that not how I'd describe it. I came to a stop behind a car in the same lane turning left as well.
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I think that's what people are calling "tucking in". I don't know of any state where it's illegal to do that, but I don't doubt that there are some. The best justification I can think of is to make sure that emergency vehicles have a clear way through the intersection.

I checked the driver manuals for both Michigan and Vermont and both seem to say only that you must yield to oncoming traffic. "Yield" doesn't mean that you have to wait until the intersection is completely clear before entering it. As I wrote before, a lot of people behave as though the law requires you to do that when it doesn't, and cause severe congestion as traffic backs up behind the light. So I'd like to see how a statute is worded that specifically forbids entering an intersection before it is clear.
 
For those discussing the point, lookup "Permissive Yellow" vs. "Restrictive Yellow" for your state.

Guessing doesn't beat the law, and it ain't consistent.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/redlight/outreach/marketing/rlr_pps022509/short/

Permissive yellow rule:
  • Driver can legally enter intersection during entire yellow interval
  • Violation occurs if driver enters intersection after onset of red
Restrictive yellow rule:
  • Driver can neither enter nor be in intersection on red
  • Violation occurs if driver has not cleared intersection after onset of red

Question: What is red-light Running?

Answer: Depends on the definition of what a yellow light means.
The permissive yellow rule is that stated in the MUTCD and Uniform Vehicle Code (UVC).

37 states + DC have laws in substantial conformity with the meaning of the yellow and red indications in the MUTCD and UVC. Another 9 states require motorists to stop on yellow but also drive cautiously through the intersection on the red if too close to stop safely.

...

Four states—LA, TN, RI, WV—prohibit vehicles from crossing the intersection on red. The laws in these four states are not in conformity with the meaning of the yellow and red indications specified in the MUTCD.
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Sac Arrow said:
The CVC addresses it as a failure to yield.
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Interesting. And the Michigan traffic laws FAQ talks about several scenarios that would be no-nos if that was the case there.

I find it hard to imagine a reality where entering an intersection and waiting for someone to complete their turn in front of me could be reasonably considered "failing to yield".

I guess it's a case of a word meaning what they want it to mean, not what it actually means, eh?
 
azure said:
Interesting. And the Michigan traffic laws FAQ talks about several scenarios that would be no-nos if that was the case there.

I find it hard to imagine a reality where entering an intersection and waiting for someone to complete their turn in front of me could be reasonably considered "failing to yield".

I guess it's a case of a word meaning what they want it to mean, not what it actually means, eh?
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Ah that's a different issue. Some States allow you to proceed in to an intersection and remain stopped behind traffic during a red light (the "cluster rule") and some States don't allow it. California does not disallow it as far as I know. In context the intersection is "clear" if you can safely enter it.
 
azure said:
Interesting. And the Michigan traffic laws FAQ talks about several scenarios that would be no-nos if that was the case there.

I find it hard to imagine a reality where entering an intersection and waiting for someone to complete their turn in front of me could be reasonably considered "failing to yield".

I guess it's a case of a word meaning what they want it to mean, not what it actually means, eh?
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Nobody expected anyone to enter the intersection on yellow and THEN yield.

The Southbound truck saw the yellow way back. I saw the gap knowing the light was yellow, had been yellow, and was going to be red. I saw the truck coming and knew he'd have to stop for his red so I proceeded. He entered the intersection on red.

...but he didn't stop. He rolled through causing an issue. Had he stopped for his red or had my parents never met there wouldn't have been a problem.
 
Seeing as how many of your "Jerk" threads end up with you staunchly defending your position against commentary and circling abusers, is this truly entertainment for you?

Removing your fingernails one by one with pliers may be an easier option for you, eh? :crazy: :loco:
 
Captain said:
Nobody expected anyone to enter the intersection on yellow and THEN yield.

The Southbound truck saw the yellow way back. I saw the gap knowing the light was yellow, had been yellow, and was going to be red. I saw the truck coming and knew he'd have to stop for his red so I proceeded. He entered the intersection on red.

...but he didn't stop. He rolled through causing an issue. Had he stopped for his red or had my parents never met there wouldn't have been a problem.
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You are going to be in a very nasty accident someday with that logic.
 
PaulS said:
You are going to be in a very nasty accident someday with that logic.
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Compared to the eternity in hell you already have me pegged for I'm not worried.

Over the top? Meh, this is a pretty small portion of driving and looks like it's not even standard as the legal specifics of a yellow seem to vary from state to state. I'm hardly the only person who pulls into the intersection on green as it's codified in some states law.

So, for this small issue the thread has folks out there calling me an idiot, telling me "I'm *ucked", calling for me to surrender all licences I hold (presumably pilot too) and now you predicting a 'very nasty accident'.

Got news for all ya...when it comes to crazy town ya'll own it.

:):yes::D
 
Captain said:
So, for this small issue the thread has folks out there calling me an idiot, telling me "I'm *ucked", calling for me to surrender all licences I hold (presumably pilot too) and now you predicting a 'very nasty accident'.
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Yet you keep starting these threads, assumingly looking for personal validation, then moan when you don't get it. :dunno:
 
Captain said:
Compared to the eternity in hell you already have me pegged for I'm not worried.

Over the top? Meh, this is a pretty small portion of driving and looks like it's not even standard as the legal specifics of a yellow seem to vary from state to state. I'm hardly the only person who pulls into the intersection on green as it's codified in some states law.

So, for this small issue the thread has folks out there calling me an idiot, telling me "I'm *ucked", calling for me to surrender all licences I hold (presumably pilot too) and now you predicting a 'very nasty accident'.

Got news for all ya...when it comes to crazy town ya'll own it.

:):yes::D
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I think I was the only one calling for all of your licensing to be re-evaluated. But then again, I believe people should be licensed to breath, and I should be in charge of suspensions.
 
Captain said:
Nobody expected anyone to enter the intersection on yellow and THEN yield.

The Southbound truck saw the yellow way back. I saw the gap knowing the light was yellow, had been yellow, and was going to be red. I saw the truck coming and knew he'd have to stop for his red so I proceeded. He entered the intersection on red.
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Earlier I thought you said you entered the intersection on green. If you entered on yellow, then I have no idea whether even that was legal in your state since it depends on the state (permissive yellow vs. restrictive yellow as someone else mentioned).

If you weren't so hell bent on defending the guy in the car I'd bet that you were actually the one in the truck, telling the story from the perspective of the guy in the car, like in the bicycle "jerk" thread you started a while back.
 
azure said:
Earlier I thought you said you entered the intersection on green. If you entered on yellow, then I have no idea whether even that was legal in your state since it depends on the state (permissive yellow vs. restrictive yellow as someone else mentioned).

If you weren't so hell bent on defending the guy in the car I'd bet that you were actually the one in the truck, telling the story from the perspective of the guy in the car, like in the bicycle "jerk" thread you started a while back.
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No, I entered on green. Sat for awhile number two until the light turned yellow. After a pause there was a break and number one went. I followed seeing the truck but thinking he would stop...or at least yield.
 
Captain said:
No, I entered on green. Sat for awhile number two until the light turned yellow. After a pause there was a break and number one went. I followed seeing the truck but thinking he would stop...or at least yield.
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Okay, got it. So did the truck enter on yellow or red? If on yellow and your state is "permissive yellow", then you were supposed to yield to him even though the light was yellow. If on red, or your state is "restrictive yellow" and he could have stopped safely, then I doubt there's any state where you would be expected to yield to him since he entered the intersection illegally.
 
azure said:
Okay, got it. So did the truck enter on yellow or red? If on yellow and your state is "permissive yellow", then you were supposed to yield to him even though the light was yellow. If on red, or your state is "restrictive yellow" and he could have stopped safely, then I doubt there's any state where you would be expected to yield to him since he entered the intersection illegally.
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But the oncoming truck is turning right. If he's got a yellow, I don't think he's required to stop at the light to make his right turn, which means the car turning left across the intersection must yield, right?

If the truck turning right has a red light, I assume he's required to come to a complete stop at the light before proceeding to turn right, and I assume that means the opposite, left-turning traffic in the intersection and clearing said intersection during the transition from yellow to red would have the right of way.

But I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so who knows.
 
azure said:
Okay, got it. So did the truck enter on yellow or red? If on yellow and your state is "permissive yellow", then you were supposed to yield to him even though the light was yellow. If on red, or your state is "restrictive yellow" and he could have stopped safely, then I doubt there's any state where you would be expected to yield to him since he entered the intersection illegally.
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The bold one and yeah! That's my point...

Honestly I don't know the specific law about permissive or restrictive yellows. I guess everyone here dumping on me is dialed in on that part of traffic code, but this "idiot" must have forgot knowing it.

Florida is the state btw.
 
Captain said:
Compared to the eternity in hell you already have me pegged for I'm not worried.

Over the top? Meh, this is a pretty small portion of driving and looks like it's not even standard as the legal specifics of a yellow seem to vary from state to state. I'm hardly the only person who pulls into the intersection on green as it's codified in some states law.

So, for this small issue the thread has folks out there calling me an idiot, telling me "I'm *ucked", calling for me to surrender all licences I hold (presumably pilot too) and now you predicting a 'very nasty accident'.

Got news for all ya...when it comes to crazy town ya'll own it.

:):yes::D
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I never told you you were going to spend an eternity in hell.
 
asechrest said:
But the oncoming truck is turning right. If he's got a yellow, I don't think he's required to stop at the light to make his right turn, which means the car turning left across the intersection must yield, right?



If the truck turning right has a red light, I assume he's required to come to a complete stop at the light before proceeding to turn right, and I assume that means the opposite, left-turning traffic in the intersection and clearing said intersection during the transition from yellow to red would have the right of way.



But I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so who knows.
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But how do you know what color light the oncoming traffic had? Tonight I stopped when I had a green, wanting to make a left turn, but the oncoming traffic was also stopped. After about 5 seconds of waiting I made my left turn in front and the other traffic never moved. Note that this was in NJ because we are BROKE IN TETERBORO. [/rant off]
 
Everskyward said:
But how do you know what color light the oncoming traffic had? Tonight I stopped when I had a green, wanting to make a left turn, but the oncoming traffic was also stopped. After about 5 seconds of waiting I made my left turn in front and the other traffic never moved. Note that this was in NJ because we are BROKE IN TETERBORO. [/rant off]
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Mari......

Sorry for your loss.......:sad::sad::sad:.........:redface:
 
Everskyward said:
But how do you know what color light the oncoming traffic had? Tonight I stopped when I had a green, wanting to make a left turn, but the oncoming traffic was also stopped. After about 5 seconds of waiting I made my left turn in front and the other traffic never moved. Note that this was in NJ because we are BROKE IN TETERBORO. [/rant off]
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Everyone knows you can't turn left in Jersey.
 
asechrest said:
But the oncoming truck is turning right. If he's got a yellow, I don't think he's required to stop at the light to make his right turn, which means the car turning left across the intersection must yield, right?
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Well yes, but that begs the question, doesn't it? If the truck was in the intersection legally then the car was required to yield. If not, then I believe the car has the right of way at that point. So was the truck legal to enter the intersection on yellow? One of Captain's posts said the truck was "way back" when the light turned yellow and he should have seen it. If that's true, then my understanding is that whether the truck was legal to enter the intersection depends on what state law allows you to do when approaching a yellow light. Do you have to stop unless it's unsafe, or is it basically "proceed cautiously"? Mari is right too, in many areas lights for opposite direction traffic aren't synchronized, so just because Captain the motorist saw a yellow light, doesn't mean the truck did.
 
The lights are the same for opposing traffic at this intersection.

The fact that the truck saw a yellow when it was 40 yards from the intersection doesn't make it legal to enter later when it's red.
 
Captain said:
The lights are the same for opposing traffic at this intersection.

The fact that the truck saw a yellow when it was 40 yards from the intersection doesn't make it legal to enter later when it's red.
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If I understand correctly then, you proceeded legally on a yellow and he blew through on a red. If that's the case then the other motorist was in the wrong. But, the question still remains as to whether you would have been expected to recognize the potential for an accident when you proceeded. Rights of way are not absolute.

And I don't know the situation well enough to render an answer to that one, as I was not sitting in the car.
 
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