is this fair?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by blueskyMD, May 17, 2018.

  1. blueskyMD

    blueskyMD Pre-takeoff checklist

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    On my last flight to home KXLL I was being vectored for RNAV 7 approach . I was planning on doing the full approach on my own but the controller offered to provide vectors so I accepted. As I got very close to the Dostr intersection and anticipating loc intercept any moment I was told that I had to go to Katve intersection and hold because there was Allegiant flight is on the way to KABE . The airline was still 15 miles out and still at 6000 ft. Well after about 10 minutes of hold finally I was cleared for the approach. So the question is , is this standard way to handle the approaches where a smaller airport lies inside the class C airspace , to move little guys out of the way to make room for airlines ?
     
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yup. 'Merica ain't it great!

    Solution? "approach cancel IFR"
     
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  3. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Fair, schmair. You would have preferred to have the commercial flight doing laps while you putt-putted your way in?

    Good practice, wasn't it?
     
  4. JC150

    JC150 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Did the allegiant plane have an emergency?
     
  5. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    I wish I would get an unexpected hold, for proficiency and currency.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
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  6. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Dad to Tim in about 1970:

    Son, you will come to find that the only thing that's fair in life is where the 4H kids take their animals.
     
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  7. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Might’ve worked depending on what the Wx conditions were at the time.
     
  8. ScottK

    ScottK Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I fly out of a Class D that has Spirit and an on the field jet service coming and going. We get moved all the time. I just look at as more time in the air. Honestly, when I see Spirit's A319 waiting at the hold line while I'm doing 70 on short final, I feel bad that they're burning that much fuel waiting on me.
     
  9. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If it's vfr it always will work. ATC can't refuse an IFR cancellation. :cool:
     
  10. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It happens. I was cleared for the 12 approach into 9D9 (I forget if it was the GPS or VOR), GRR gave an airliner vectors to delay his approach to 35 at GRR, and told him I was the reason for it.
     
  11. blueskyMD

    blueskyMD Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Cant cancel IFR sky OVC007
     
  12. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nope.
     
  13. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    "My engine is running a teensy bit rough!"
     
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  14. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Yes it’s normal.
     
  15. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    It happens, but given blueskyMD was shooting an actual approach and was already pretty deep into it, I think it's kind of BS.
     
  16. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Divide the fuel by the number of passengers - you are paying more per passenger hour than they are. The airlines should feel bad about how much of our money they are wasting...
     
  17. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Go to Chicago some time.
     
  18. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

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    Perhaps. But I’m not holding my breath...
     
  19. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

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    Fly KFRG, short final being told to break off due to jet traffic. Happens multiple times a day.
     
  20. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The reverse has happened to me when I flew at an airline. South Bend, about 25-30 miles south and approach told us to slow as a Bo was inbound for 18, and we were inbound for 27. So we comply, eventually turn final for 27 and see the Bo maybe a 1/2 to 1 mile final. Tower sends us around to let the Bo land. If they hadn't slowed us we would have been at the gate before the Bo landed. Or they could have landed the Bo before or after us on the same runway. Told the tower what I thought, and wrote them up. Not that it did any good.
     
  21. RudyP

    RudyP Line Up and Wait

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    That's what I was going to say. The only time this type of stuff seems to happen routinely is going into Midway when one of Chicago's precious Southwest flights is around. It's almost embarrassing how they pander to these SWA guys... "Cirrus N12345 break off the approach and hold at XYZ, a Southwest 737 just took off out of Denver, we'll work you in behind him"

    I (no joke) have been vectored off the ILS at Midway because of a SLOWER 737 several miles behind me (I was doing 170 knots on the approach and told him I could maintain that to 1 mile final).
     
  22. charheep

    charheep Line Up and Wait

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    It was an Allegiant flight. Of course it was an emergency. Thats like asking if a Cirrus driver likes Zima.
     
  23. blueskyMD

    blueskyMD Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If ATC privatization bill passes and if we are required to pay for the services we get, can we demand equal treatment form ATC ?
     
  24. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    For those that think airliner should always get priority does that also go for semi trucks and buses on the interstate?
     
  25. DFH65

    DFH65 Pattern Altitude

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    Send Allegiant the bill for your avgas I am sure they will put some of their best people on it and get it handled toot sweet. :)
     
  26. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Controller’s girlfriend was on the plane and he was off work in 20 minutes. :)
     
  27. Possum

    Possum Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Perhaps the post of the year!!!! POA Hall of Fame material..
     
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  28. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Old dog w/o new tricks
    Need to apply the net neutrality concept to ATC.
     
  29. JGoodish

    JGoodish Cleared for Takeoff

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    Per 7110.65, traffic is supposed to be prioritized on a first-come, first-served basis, with certain exceptions (normal commercial flights are not one of the exceptions). Most of the time when I've encountered this type of conflict, I've been given the option to speed up (which means at least 120kts) or wait. I've usually chosen the "speed up" option, which has worked... but you have to know your airplane and be prepared to fly it that way if necessary (and not float halfway down the runway when you get there). The 90-100kt approach or the 80/75/70kt pattern doesn't work well when mixing with jets, and I suspect that making the slow guy wait is easier than making the fast guy wait.
     
  30. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Old dog w/o new tricks
    The slaughterhouse?
     
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  31. danhagan

    danhagan Cleared for Takeoff

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    Had to laugh. Flew them for the first time a couple of weeks ago to Vegas for the hockey game. Was meeting my son there who was flying from his college. My flight mechanically delayed 1 hour, his was delayed 14 hours, return trip they asked us to keep all the window shades down as the AC wasn't working:confused: Gee, you guys are really making me feel confident in your maintenance.
     
  32. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    A lot of things in life aren’t fair. @blueskyMD
     
  33. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    The real question you should be asking:
    Do you REALLY want to be in the same air space as Allegiant?
     
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  34. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    unable
     
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  35. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    LOL. Just don’t be BELOW them. :)
     
  36. DanWilkins

    DanWilkins Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I stay below 1900’
     
  37. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I've twice had ATC issue go arounds at IAD for airliners because I was the conflicting traffic. One was purely their fault. They left us in position and hold and never issued a takeoff clearance (we offered upon them sending the airliner around to clear the runway, but they said it wouldn't be necessary).

    In the other they brought me in tight behind a larger aircraft so I planned my touchdown past his (the first high speed is still 4500' down). I still made it but I got a rude comment from ATC. That one I did file a complaint over. Even if it had been my fault (which it was not), the rudeness was uncalled for, unprofessional, and contrary to safety. I got a nice apology from the supes.
     
  38. JC150

    JC150 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm glad someone finally caught the joke! Is it bad that's the first thing I thought about when he wrote allegiant?
     
  39. TK211X

    TK211X Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I see KATVE doesn’t have Λ published hold. Did he tell you to proceed direct and hold however you want or did he specify what he wanted for the hold instructions?
     
  40. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's funny, you think we pander to SWA. SWA thinks we pander to AAl. AAL thinks we pander to UAL. In truth, none of you guys sign our paychecks. We take pride in doing whatever is most efficient to get the most airplanes on the ground as quick as possible within the ever changing rules. Sometimes that may mean that a SR22 that can go 170 to short final has to get a couple delay vectors because the logical gap is the natural gap behind the 8th 737 that may be at 210 kts. If you can do 250 kts, you will be treated the same going into a busy jet airport. If you can go 210 you may be considered the same depending on the turn on point and the actual speed of the final/downwind. If you can do 170 you will rarely be the same (especially considering they need 4 miles at touchdown with you for wake turbulence as opposed to runway separation that is usually 2-2 1/2 miles).

    I know from past comments C90 has left a terrible taste in your mouth and that's too bad as there is nothing I'm going to say or show you that will change your perception of your past treatment. There is no way that you were vectored off the ILS at MDW because you were faster than a 737 that was several miles behind you. The controllers don't want to work a slow mover (or anyone for that matter) twice for funsies. The problem with doing 170 to a 1 mile final is that you're likely to catch (within the required 4 miles for wake) the 737 ahead of you. I wish this was recent and I could look it up for you and give a better explanation.

    I know that SR22's have sweet instrumentation on the plane but there is no way that you will have a better understanding of the current traffic and flow in the airspace to an airport than the controllers at the scope.

    If you feel that something as outrageous as hold at XYZ for a SWA off Denver (I know it was just an exaggerated frustrated joke) or really anything that caused you to receive an unfair delay, you'd be remiss not to call the facility and request a review and followup of the event. Individual events may warrant that as controllers are human and maybe you get a one time nefarious one but to claim an entire facility would do something like this is ridiculous. ATC is on a first come first serve basis but that doesn't mean that one slow mover that requires additional spacing on the final gets to gum the entire rush up for 10-20 planes when a few delay vectors may keep everything flowing more efficient to the airport.

    Rudy, I enjoy your post here and have enjoyed following your flights, move across the country and possible future transition into jets. I hope I'm not coming off harsh here. I'm sure if I took a shot at your chosen profession you'd give me a little push back as well.