Is this a good aviation job?

Unregistered · Sep 25, 2005

Just to let you know, I am registered here, but I thought that I should post anonymously so protect the guilty....

So here we go:

I currently have about six hundred single engine land flight hours, an instrument ticket that is 'out of annual', and about 75% of an IPC completed. I fly a pipeline patrol that covers a pipeline running through four states. On the day in question we were on the last allowable day to cover the fifteen hundred mile line, which takes us about twelve hours of flight time at 500' AGL. The weather at 8 AM, which is the latest that I can take off and still complete the line was solid IFR between me and the line, but clearing on the other side. I called the boss and told him I was staying at base, and he advised me to call him as the weather improved.

As the weather went from IFR to better IFR to spotty IFR to Really Marginal VFR, I continued to make phone calls and get increasingly demanding "advice" that I "needed to get the line done today, no matter what." The "advice" was not really a suggestion, but more of a demand with a veiled threat of firing me mixed in with it. It was sort of a "go, or get fired" cocktail.

We all know where this is going, but I will finish the story for those who must know "The Rest of the Story."

Basically, what happened was the line about an hour from my base was still covered in spotty fog and ceilings that were 1000' over the ASOS stations. This is technically VFR because the visibility was 4 miles or so, again spotty at best. The reason that I waited is because along the route, the airports sit close to a river and are in valleys mainly, where as the line goes up and down hills and dales, and generally runs amok amidst the plains. So a 1000' ceiling at [Daves Field] (again, name changed to protect the guilty) is not necessarily a 1000' ceiling over our pipeline.

I wanted to wait another hour, becuase ceilings were coming up, slowly, and I thought an extra hour might get me 2000' or more, rather than launch into spotty fog and 1000'? ceilings.

The exact quote from the boss' mouth was "Either you leave right now and fly the line, or you come to [Braziltown] and I will fly the line myself."

Here's the good part of the story, where $35,000 of part 141 schooling pays off:

"OK" says I, (now wait for it), "I'll see you in 45 minutes with the plane."

I took the plane to [Braziltown] and dropped it off, then I got to ride home in a truck.

My quiestion now becomes: "Is this job worth the constant "advice" that I get to go into poor weather?"

What do you think?

bbchien · Sep 25, 2005

Unregistered said:
Just to let you know, I am registered here, but I thought that I should post anonymously so protect the guilty....

So here we go:

.....It was sort of a "go, or get fired" cocktail.

We all know where this is going, but I will finish the story for those who must know "The Rest of the Story.".....

The exact quote from the boss' mouth was "Either you leave right now and fly the line, or you come to [Braziltown] and I will fly the line myself."

Here's the good part of the story, where $35,000 of part 141 schooling pays off:"OK" says I, (now wait for it), "I'll see you in 45 minutes with the plane."
I took the plane to [Braziltown] and dropped it off, then I got to ride home in a truck.

I wished you'd called me, I'd a come and got you.

My quiestion now becomes: "Is this job worth the constant "advice" that I get to go into poor weather?"

What do you think?

In commercial aviation you are always going to have this sort of pressure. You did the right thing- as had anything at all happened, every ASOS would have been testimony against your ticket.

Let the boss jeopardize his ticket.

Now that doesn't stop you from trying to engineer a way around what appears to be unflyable. But if you don't think you can then you don't. But sadly, there are not a lot of aviation jobs in this segment of one's learning.

And as a practical problem, A DA40 just doesn't go slow enough to scud run in (not that I recommend it); a Cessna 140 is more like it if you're gonna do that sort of stuff.

How did I get to be old? Not by doing that stuff....next thing you'll get is "go do it in freezing drizzle hell you can see 2 miles". Besides, your boss is a putz. Believe me, I've seen enough to know 'em.

Unregistered · Sep 25, 2005

Doc,

It's good to hear that I was right, I have to tell myself that about once a day because of this incident. I talked to "The Crew" and they all agreed too.

Now I am sure that it is going to be a weekly thing though, and tomorrow is forecast to be marginal as well.

So how about all you other pilots out there? Will you learn from this? I really hope so!!

--The "Anonymous" Line Pilot

Dave Siciliano · Sep 25, 2005

You were certainly right; let's hope you've not won a battle and lost the war.

There are really several issues here. You focused on the flying part and made the correct decision. Now, one must ask, was there a way to relate things to the boss in a manner that wouldn't be confrontational, but still make the point.

I had a friend that was excellent at this--much better than me!! Think about asking things like: Boss, if I can't stay clear of the fog and still see the pipeline, how do I check it? If I go IFR inadvertently, and bust minimums should I be doing that? If I get hurt or the plane gets damaged, etc. You know him, so, you have the best responses.

Here in Texas, one party to a conversation can legally tape it. I've been in situations before where I either brought this up later or something along the lines of how much it would hurt the business for the client to find out we might be breaking the rules.

You have to think through things, but something that comes with age is not only doing what is correct, but trying to find a manner in which to do it which furthers everyone's aims.

Dave

Fast n' Furious · Sep 25, 2005

Is it a good aviation job? Probably was right up until your dilemna with management but it's not unusual. Get a room full of guys and girls who have flown the line for marginal 91/135 and even some 121/125 outfits and I'll bet you you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting someone who's been there too. I won't judge directly but I'll pass on some really great stuff I've heard over the years to maybe help out. Here goes....

You're a long time dead.
If you die on a crappy day they'll be sure to bury you on a nice one.
Don't push yourself...leave that to others becasue they'll certainly try.
Aviation jobs are like busses..another will be along shortly.
Common sense ain't all that common.
The hardest word to say sometimes is NO. But it might be the smartest.

Would this trip have killed you? Maybe. Maybe not. There are lots of airplanes flown by people with the best of intentions parked forever in the side of a hill because of being "aggressive". No one (that I know of anyway) has ever snuffed it for being cautious.

So spin up the resume machine if you have to. If your next potential employer asks you why you left your last job look 'em right in the eye and tell him. In the meantime, go get a beer. No flying of course!

Dave Krall CFII · Sep 25, 2005

You made a wise and safe decision.
BTW, Did the boss then fly it as advertised ?

woodstock · Sep 25, 2005

Dave Krall CFII said:
You made a wise and safe decision.
BTW, Did the boss then fly it as advertised ?

my question too. and how did he react when you showed up with the plane?

bbchien · Sep 25, 2005

The irony is that when he showed up with the a/c is was only about 15 minutes before when he wanted to depart.

I can also attest that "anon line guy" is very thoughtful and NOT a mouthy guy and after this evening, that he flies under the hood well.

SCCutler · Sep 25, 2005

bbchien said:
The irony is that when he showed up with the a/c is was only about 15 minutes before when he wanted to depart.

I can also attest that "anon line guy" is very thoughtful and NOT a mouthy guy and after this evening, that he flies under the hood well.

...and we know what kind of plane he was flying, too.

==

Lawyers (and I are one, but not that kind) love this kind of situation, after the smoke clears. You exercised good judgment.

Unregistered · Sep 26, 2005

Re: Is this a good aviation job? UPDATE

Here's an update to the condition of my condition:

Last night the "random line guy" got an IPC and is now a legal IFR pilot, once again. (Thanks again, Doc. I figure a thousand "thank-yous" will not be sufficient)

While I was on my IPC my wonderful wif was at home starving to death, as I was bringing the buns for the hamburgers home, but due to my extreme charm and sharp wit, as well as my boyish good looks, I am forgiven. (As far as pilot's wives go, this one is TOPS. She worked full time in a government run DAYCARE to put me through flight school, such is her commitment to my aviating!!)

About the time the grovelling and begging ceased whe tells me that the boss called and that I have, once again, been relieved of my flying duties for this week.

And yes, I think that he was a little surprised when I showed up there with the plane on the day in question. He said nothing to me but a terse "Hello" and then was off, basically.

John J · Sep 26, 2005

Anon;

I am very glad you said no to the boss.
I had a simular experience many years ago, The Boss actually fired me for not flying a trip where the weather was ground fog, becoming marginal VFR later on. To top it off thunderstorms were going to come in later in the day. Sadly about a week later my backup got killed flying the route by scud running. Luckly I made the right decision for I am older and wiser now. When we are young and trying to get established/please the Boss in a flying career that is when we can get pushed beyond our means.

Glad you did what you did. Thank you for share your story

John J

Dave Krall CFII · Sep 26, 2005

Re: Is this a good aviation job? UPDATE

Unregistered said:
Here's an update to the condition of my condition:

Last night the "random line guy" got an IPC and is now a legal IFR pilot, once again. (Thanks again, Doc. I figure a thousand "thank-yous" will not be sufficient)

While I was on my IPC my wonderful wif was at home starving to death, as I was bringing the buns for the hamburgers home, but due to my extreme charm and sharp wit, as well as my boyish good looks, I am forgiven. (As far as pilot's wives go, this one is TOPS. She worked full time in a government run DAYCARE to put me through flight school, such is her commitment to my aviating!!)

About the time the grovelling and begging ceased whe tells me that the boss called and that I have, once again, been relieved of my flying duties for this week.

And yes, I think that he was a little surprised when I showed up there with the plane on the day in question. He said nothing to me but a terse "Hello" and then was off, basically.

" And yes, I think that he was a little surprised when I showed up there with the plane on the day in question. He said nothing to me but a terse "Hello" and then was off, basically. "

Glad you're hanging in there...

Just for further edification for all pilots here, did the WX improve when the boss flew the line or other details ?

woodstock · Sep 26, 2005

John J said:
Anon;

I am very glad you said no to the boss.
I had a simular experience many years ago, The Boss actually fired me for not flying a trip where the weather was ground fog, becoming marginal VFR later on. To top it off thunderstorms were going to come in later in the day. Sadly about a week later my backup got killed flying the route by scud running. Luckly I made the right decision for I am older and wiser now. When we are young and trying to get established/please the Boss in a flying career that is when we can get pushed beyond our means.

Glad you did what you did. Thank you for share your story

John J

wow, did you act as witness against said boss? I'd say that guy got pushed into a corner much like you did - if I were his family I'd be out for boss-boy's blood.

John J · Sep 26, 2005

woodstock said:
wow, did you act as witness against said boss? I'd say that guy got pushed into a corner much like you did - if I were his family I'd be out for boss-boy's blood.

This happened in the early 1963 about 9 months after I got my Commercial rating. I was about to turn 19 at the time. What happened, My replacement was 24 and he was newly married. After the accident the outfit was sued for insurance. I and several other pilots who had the same fate as me got together to help the widow win her case. It was a very sobering lesson for me about flying charters. There were alot of "Fly by Night" operators at that time. The "Equipment" (dare I say airplanes) they use were another story.

John

Unregistered · Sep 26, 2005

To answer the weather question, it did indeed "improve". The ceilings along the route stayed about 1000 to 1500 feet all morning and visibility was great, except for the areas where it was "VCTS". I was ordered to watch the weather, but didn't because I was mowing grass along the runway.

About the time that this loud "discussion" was taking place, the route was obscured by green and yellow radar blobs in Kansas. My decision not to launch for at least an hour came more because the airplane's weather satlink, which the chief pilot relies on heavily, is intermittent at best. The satlink would be considered, fora ll practical purposes under an overcast, to be INOP. Launching into marginal VFR dodging thunderstorms and ground fog is not my idea of a "good career move".

The weather did get better in the afternoon and early evening, much to my dismay. Basically, from their point of view, I just didn't want to fly even though the weather was "fine" and getting better every minute. Being neither a good Psychic, nor God Almighty, I decided not to tempt the Kansas t-storms with my presence.....so I mowed grass all day instead.

Dave Krall CFII · Sep 26, 2005

Unregistered said:
To answer the weather question, it did indeed "improve". The ceilings along the route stayed about 1000 to 1500 feet all morning and visibility was great, except for the areas where it was "VCTS". I was ordered to watch the weather, but didn't because I was mowing grass along the runway.

About the time that this loud "discussion" was taking place, the route was obscured by green and yellow radar blobs in Kansas. My decision not to launch for at least an hour came more because the airplane's weather satlink, which the chief pilot relies on heavily, is intermittent at best. The satlink would be considered, fora ll practical purposes under an overcast, to be INOP. Launching into marginal VFR dodging thunderstorms and ground fog is not my idea of a "good career move".

The weather did get better in the afternoon and early evening, much to my dismay. Basically, from their point of view, I just didn't want to fly even though the weather was "fine" and getting better every minute. Being neither a good Psychic, nor God Almighty, I decided not to tempt the Kansas t-storms with my presence.....so I mowed grass all day instead.

Murphy's WX Laws can manifest themselves really well and severely, both ways, in aviation.

John J · Sep 26, 2005

Dave Krall CFII said:
Murphy's WX Laws can manifest themselves really well and severely, both ways, in aviation.

Dave;

Thank you for putting so well.

Annon; I am very glad you spent the rest of the day cutting grass. You made a decision based on what you gleaned from the wx and the equipment at hand. Wisely you said no to the company.

John J

Unregistered · Sep 29, 2005

I just wanted to write a quick thank you to all of those who replied to this post. It has been a unanimous response in my favor, and I appreciate that a great deal.

Thank you all!

Unregistered · Oct 4, 2005

Another update to the saga of the pipeline pilot:

Yesterday, Monday, the weather was forecast to be thunderstorms in the afternoon, over and adjacent to my route of flight while doing the pipeline. The weather for today, Tuesday, was forecast to be much better after about 8AM when the fog was supposed to burn off.

Guess what I did? I took Monday off to spend playing in the yard with my dogs, doing the laundry and the other fun stuff you get to do on your day off. The thunderstorms didn't show up until about 6PM, so maybe I would have been okay, but maybe not.

So I get up on this foggy Tuesday morn, and check with FSS.

"Fog until 8" say they.

"Okay, looks good after 8 then...." says I.

I get to the airport and my co-worker informs me that the boss had come down and gotten the airplane last night, without so much as a phone call to me to let me know that I was relieved, again.

"So I guess he didn't tell you then?" he asked.

"!@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@!" says I.

I guess that I am pulled off the line for another week, at least; maybe this is the week I get fired.

At this point, whether deserved or not, a change of employer will probably be well accepted by both myself and Mrs. "Random Pilot"....

bbchien · Oct 4, 2005

Yeah, I heard.
It's hard. You can't do the "No Go" very often and stay in this business. But, I think you're headed (future) in the right direction. Just remember the nights in winter up there are very long.
Maybe we can connect you with Tim Berg....and Professor Kath, who are both up in the BIG state......

Unregistered · Oct 4, 2005

Unfortunately, yesterday my go/no go decision seems to have been unfounded. I was reacting to conditions that never materialized and it will go down in the annals of history as such. So this is not in my favor, by any stretch of the imagination.

But, as I told Mrs. "Random Pilot" last night over a hot cup of DUATS: "Given the choice between a day off or a day possibly dodging thunderstorms and pushing to get done before daylight runs out, I will choose to wait another day....especially when the next two days are going to be 'perfect'."

This is one of those things when not going wasn't even really the wrong answer; it was just a different answer. The devil is in the details....

Len Lanetti · Oct 4, 2005

Unregistered said:
This is one of those things when not going wasn't even really the wrong answer; it was just a different answer. The devil is in the details....

What is the going rate for being clairvoyant these days?

:<)

Good luck and fly safe.

Sincerely,

Len

Unregistered · Oct 4, 2005

Len,
I am supposed to have the "Clairvoyant Signoff" in the back of my logbook. Are there any FBOs that offer that? I wonder what the checkride is like?

Like I told a friend today, you either laugh about it, or you cry about it. I usually laugh it off.

Thanks Len, humor is now, and always will, be appreciated,
"Random pilot"

Unregistered · Oct 5, 2005

Well, it is over. yesterday I got fir....er I resigned from my post as a pipeline pilot and line boy. I talked to my buddy at the carpet store, and I will once again be selling flooring. Which is okay, though, because the money is more than I was making as a pilot for this company, and I get two days off a week, and the carpet store won't try to make me sell carpet in thunderstorms or ultra low ceilings.....

I had dinner with the good Docter last night (Thanks again, Bruce!). Good advice was dispensed and a good time was had by all, so the story ends fairly well.....

THE END ?

woodstock · Oct 5, 2005

I sincerely hope this boss doesn't kill someone else with his pushiness.

MSmith · Oct 5, 2005

Unregistered said:
Len,
I am supposed to have the "Clairvoyant Signoff" in the back of my logbook. Are there any FBOs that offer that? I wonder what the checkride is like?

If you qualified, you'd already know.

Fast n' Furious · Oct 5, 2005

Well, take it as a learning expereince that didn't get you hurt or worse. There will be other opportinities to take what you learned at the old place and apply it to a new place. Aviation's like that. You survive by knowing when it's okay to go, when it's not and when it's okay to go later. Good luck on the next go around.

bbchien · Oct 8, 2005

Unregistered said:
Well, it is over. yesterday I got fir....er I resigned from my post as a pipeline pilot and line boy. I talked to my buddy at the carpet store, and I will once again be selling flooring. Which is okay, though, because the money is more than I was making as a pilot for this company, and I get two days off a week, and the carpet store won't try to make me sell carpet in thunderstorms or ultra low ceilings.....

I had dinner with the good Docter last night (Thanks again, Bruce!). Good advice was dispensed and a good time was had by all, so the story ends fairly well.....

THE END ?

No. The Beginning.

kath · Oct 9, 2005

Unregistered said:
THE END ?

That's what they say at the end of a movie that's going to have a sequel. Some sequels are better than the original...B)

--Kath

Unregistered · Oct 11, 2005

I'm curious, would this situation have possibly had a better ending (in terms of keeping the job, at least) if you had told your boss "I'll go up and take a look, but I won't promise to finish the flight. If I don't feel safe, I'm landing?" Especially in the second instance with the forecast thunderstorms. I know around here possible thunderstorms are a regular occurence in the forecast, but rarely materialize. In both cases, would be willing to at least go up and see what the conditions actually are have paid in dividends?

I'm asking, btw, not criticizing.

Unregistered · Oct 11, 2005

Unregistered said:
I'm curious, would this situation have possibly had a better ending (in terms of keeping the job, at least) if you had told your boss "I'll go up and take a look, but I won't promise to finish the flight. If I don't feel safe, I'm landing?" Especially in the second instance with the forecast thunderstorms. I know around here possible thunderstorms are a regular occurence in the forecast, but rarely materialize. In both cases, would be willing to at least go up and see what the conditions actually are have paid in dividends?

I'm asking, btw, not criticizing.

Oops.. This is Joe Williams, I forgot to sign in.

Unregistered · Oct 11, 2005

Kobiashi Maru Test.....

In the regular sense of "going up to take a look" it might have been a great idea. But with this particular set of individuals, "taking a look" usually means flying the Diamond to the first fuel stop, three hours and 300+ miles.

After getting an insight injection from the Doc, I have come to find out that it really isn't about the weather, or my decisions, or anything like that. I refused to share their brain, and become a "Borg"-like unit; so I was therefore disposable. The down side to this then becomes: "Well it was okay enough to go take a look, why didn't you get done?!?" Imagine a scenario where every answer is wrong unless it is the complete and utter dismissal of your own thinking and thought process. By this time a little red light was flashing in my head anyhow, it was accompanied by a loud chime and a voice saying "EJECT, EJECT, EJECT...."

I appreciate all the positive responses that I have had in this, it was all appreciated a great deal.

They were out to do some house cleaning. They fired the office manager, and resigned me on the same day.

bbchien · Oct 11, 2005

Re: Kobiashi Maru Test.....

Unregistered said:
In the regular sense of "going up to take a look" it might have been a great idea. But with this particular set of individuals, "taking a look" usually means flying the Diamond to the first fuel stop, three hours and 300+ miles.

After getting an insight injection from the Doc, I have come to find out that it really isn't about the weather, or my decisions, or anything like that. I refused to share their brain, and become a "Borg"-like unit; so I was therefore disposable. The down side to this then becomes: "Well it was okay enough to go take a look, why didn't you get done?!?" Imagine a scenario where every answer is wrong unless it is the complete and utter dismissal of your own thinking and thought process. By this time a little red light was flashing in my head anyhow, it was accompanied by a loud chime and a voice saying "EJECT, EJECT, EJECT...."

I appreciate all the positive responses that I have had in this, it was all appreciated a great deal.

They were out to do some house cleaning. They fired the office manager, and resigned me on the same day.

You forgot to mention, they also fired the head mechanic, who was hired to "run" the place, because he was not permitted to manage. He too was a great guy.

Destined to fail. Time to Bail. This ship is not worth going down with....

Man I hope they finish my annual.

Everskyward · Oct 11, 2005

Re: Kobiashi Maru Test.....

The what test?

Unregistered said:
I have come to find out that it really isn't about the weather, or my decisions, or anything like that.

I think you're right about that. You and your boss weren't even close to being on the same page. In fact, I think he's in his own book alone!

Unregistered · Oct 12, 2005

Re: The Kobiashi Maru test....

Sorry about that obscure Star Trek reference.....I forget that everyone is not a nerd like me.

In "Star Trek" the "Kobiashi Maru Test" (not sure about the spelling) is the test that you take prior to graduating from the academy. The short version is that there is no good solution to the training scenario. No matter what you do it is wrong, but you have to do something so you pick the one that is the least bad....

In my case, no matter what I did it was wrong, so I quit.... They seemed to have too many employees anyhow, the way they were firing/laying off/resigning anyhow! I mean seriously, how many companies fire a Shop Foreman, a pilot/line worker, and an office manager in the same 2-3 week period! Now there is a full time mechanic, a part time mechanic, and a three day a week line guy....I'm sure that they will get Bruce's plane done, but after that I wonder what will happen.....

Anyhow, it looks like I jumped ship at just the right time....

Richard · Oct 12, 2005