Is there any profit in refurbishing aircraft?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by azblackbird, Apr 11, 2017.

  1. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    You have specific people who want a refurbished 210 in 3-5 years? Or are you guessing they might.
     
  2. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    Either a nice refurbed 182 or 210. Those will be my primary markets. Mostly mid-west biz owners with expanded operations, who either would have a use for a plane, or already own one but may be in need of an update. The funny part... is after I really got to thinking about this venture, most of my clients would be guys like myself, or those that I've done business with over the last 30 years who already own airplanes, or who would want to own one given the right circumstances and the crunching of the numbers. :cool:
     
  3. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    In other words, guessing...

    You might find a taker or two, but I doubt there would be enough to make a viable business. If so, there would be others out there doing it now.
     
  4. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    There are already others who do this with 182s. They do a plane here and there.
     
  5. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    I can't tell you how much I love hearing those words. :thumbsup:
     
  6. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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  7. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    You guys have to understand something. In the world I come from, an airplane is just another piece of business equipment and is expensed as such. It takes no more precedence over a combine, 4WD tractor, semi truck, loader, dozer, excavator, printing press, completion rig, prize bull, prize racehorse, rail car full of wheat, semi load full of cattle, CNC machine, etc. In fact, even a brand new C182 or G36 fresh off the showroom floor is most often cheaper to purchase than the above mentioned equipment. All an airplane is to the owners/operators of those types of operations is just another tool to help further their business interests. Nothing more... nothing less. ;)
     
  8. Richman67

    Richman67 Pre-Flight

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    This is why I think staying out of the end-retail is a smart play.

    There's already players in the "super-refurb" space. They are the one's dealing with the end customers and pay the high margins for engines and avionics, and they're the one's who don't get paid until the aircraft is delivered after waiting for months for the client to figure out paint and interior choices.

    That's why I think it's a whole lot better to be a wholesale supplier of clean "airframe only" packages. Now your market isn't the end user and you don't have a ton of money sunk into spec inventory of engines/avionics. Now your market is all the OTHER shops doing the finishing, and you get paid when the truck comes to get the crate with air frame in it. Once it's gone, you are DONE with it, and you move on to the next airframe.

    The best part is 5 years down the road when that super-premium refurb is no longer the prom queen, you can buy the airframe back at a fraction of the cost. Later, rinse, repeat, profit.
     
  9. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That could work if the fitout businesses are run by people who aren't all that smart and bad with a calculator.

    The money is in finding that uninformed end-consumer sucker who will pay a substantial premium for the end product just because it looks shiny new and has the avionics he thinks he can't do without. Without that customer, nobody in the food chain is making money. The OP claims that he has the secret sauce that allows him to find those buyers (or more precisely those buyers who haven't been found by their regional Cirrus rep yet). If that is true, rather than getting knee deep into a business he obviously doesn't know beans about, he should probably contract someone to build him 10 dolled up 182s and get cracking at selling them. Standard paintjob so he can build a brand and differentiate them from the 24,990 other 182s out there. Hook up with one of the aviation tax experts to make the tax case for his customers why overpaying on a refurb is a better deal than overpaying on a new T182T or T206H.
    As in every other aviation business endeavour (charter, maintenance, sales) there is only one question that needs to be answered: Do you have customers with the means and willingness to pay for this?
    Yes--> everything else can be arranged
    No--> your business is DOA.
     
  10. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    Ahhhh... you're beginning to get the picture. Yes, once plane is sold and depreciated out after 5-6 year term, then the client gets a updated/more complex plane on a 1031 exchange and we get to start the process all over again. I take the old plane in on trade and give it a refresh and sell it to the next client who can do a 179 on equipment, and then he get's to start the process. Lather, rinse, repeat, profit! ;)

    This is way over the heads of many here, but it sure is fun watching them rack their brains trying to figure it all out. :rofl:
     
  11. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    sounds like a small fortune could be made.....:rofl:
     
  12. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You crack me up. In another thread you ask the most basic questions about 1031 exchanges and then you return here and lecture us rubes about 'how it's done' in the world of big taxes.
     
  13. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    If they're so basic then how come you didn't answer them? :rolleyes:
     
  14. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Ahhh. You're from another world. This explains a great deal.
     
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  15. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Why tell you anything if you already have all the answers?
    I spent good money with an aviation versed accountant to figure out how to do this in my particular tax situation. Your clients situation is likely to be different, so what I was told may not have any bearing on his situation.
     
  16. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    Well I was hoping you'd come along and give me the answer. You seem to have all the answers to everything else I'm proposing, so why would this be any different. :dunno:

    Here's a question for ya that you should have an easy answer to... Cat or Jimmy?

    Answer that and I'll know if you even have the slightest clue of what you're talking about. :yesnod:
     
  17. Salty

    Salty Cleared for Takeoff

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    Have you scheduled your first lesson yet?
     
  18. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    Doh...o_O
     
  19. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    Once my therapist gives me the all clear on my fear of heights phobia, I should be good to go. :p
     
  20. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Lots of pilots are afraid of heights. No therapy needed
     
  21. eetrojan

    eetrojan Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's kind of odd that you went so quickly from asking understandably naive questions about starting flying lessons to sharing such strongly held opinions and self-determined wisdom about so many aviation related topics.
     
  22. Bobanna

    Bobanna Line Up and Wait

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  23. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    So what do you suggest I do? :dunno:
     
  24. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Learn humility.
     
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  25. eetrojan

    eetrojan Cleared for Takeoff

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    Have fun. Learn stuff. Listen more. Be a bit more humble and less combative and condescending.
     
  26. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    You mean having fun like going around making stupid comments in other people's threads. That kinda fun? :dunno:

    Just an FYI... believe it or not, I learn something new everyday from some very smart people on this site. All that intel goes directly into my "notebook" for future reference for when I start my lessons. It can be hard sometimes, but it's doable given all the numbnuts that are floating around here. :lol:
     
  27. eetrojan

    eetrojan Cleared for Takeoff

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    And there you go. You're a peach.
     
  28. Bobanna

    Bobanna Line Up and Wait

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    If you don't like the peaches, then don't shake the tree
     
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  29. eetrojan

    eetrojan Cleared for Takeoff

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    Point taken. :)
     
  30. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    As it was noted earlier, there is a good chance we are getting trolled by a sock puppet operated by one of the forum regulars (or someone who got booted).
     
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  31. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    Who is this WE you speak of? :confused2:
     
  32. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    'We' would be those who tried to answer your questions.
     
  33. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    Here's a question for you that you should have an easy answer to... Cat or Jimmy?

    If you're the owner of the business you said you were in, this should be a no-brainer. ;)
     
  34. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    And what does it have to do with your planned aircraft refurbishment empire ?
     
  35. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    You basically told me you're a business owner, and that I should listen to what you have to say. Just trying to establish your credibility to see if you actually know what you're talking about.

    Once again... Cat or Jimmy? It's a real easy answer if you're in the business you say you're in.:yesnod:
     
  36. starglider

    starglider Pre-Flight

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    Actually, he seems to me somewhat like a semi-delusional dreamer. Lot of posts in this account for it to be a joker. You'd have to really want to pull our collective legs to rack up 500-odd posts. I spend a lot of time in the startup world and sold my first startup last year. I hear pitches from people like this all the time.

    You run into a ton of people with a somewhat tenuous grasp of reality and an unrealistic sense of self in the startup world. It's acceptable to be a "crazy dreamer" as a startup founder, because most entrepreneurs (especially many famous ones) seemed to start out that way. Unfortunately, this tends to attract a certain type of person who is "too smart for this world" and who "just needs a chance to prove how right I am and how wrong everyone else is." They jump from one epiphany to the next, always with some harebrained scheme that the "rubes" could never understand but is "so obvious if only you were as smart as I am." Yesterday they were a beginner, but today they're an expert. Since they're always rewriting their personal history in their heads, this never seems absurd to them.

    Their ideas tend to froth up and die regularly; they're almost never executed; and they're completely immune to criticism. Talking to them is similar to arguing with a conspiracy theorist, except they're kind of making up their own conspiracy and then believing in it. The confirmation bias is so extreme that it's hard to believe that they're not pulling your leg, but they really do believe it.

    After you hear enough of these delusional pitches, you develop a bit of a feel for it, but there's a great objective test, too: these "entrepreneurs" rarely have track records of accomplishment in anything---just a lot of aborted schemes. Actually building a company (or getting your PPL, or soloing, etc.) requires too much interaction with the real world and too many obstacles created by "lesser" people.

    I think AZ got bit by the flying bug and has convinced himself of a lot of unrealistic things. This comment is exactly like the kind of thing I hear from delusional startup pitches: "You guys have to understand something. In the world I come from, an airplane is just another piece of business equipment and is expensed as such. It takes no more precedence over a combine, 4WD tractor. . . ." That is to say, in the world AZ wants to live in, owner-flown GA aircraft are like tractors. In AZ's mind that is the world, though, and he's playacting out a reality in which that is the case. We can point out the fallacies of this argument forever, but it won't accomplish anything. We're just actors in his fantasy.

    He's also doing a lot of playacting here, pretending to be a great businessman and tax genius, and he's got sockpuppets to playact at being a macho pilot. Over in the icing thread (https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-good-stories-you-care-to-share.102378/page-3) you can see him forget to log in with his "Alex Siemens" account when responding to an incredulous comment on "Alex's" icing encounter post. It seems pointless until you realize that he's playing out fantasies on this board with himself, testing out how real pilots will react to things. That's all factoring into his delusions in a real way.

    I've seen entrepreneurs lie about having started companies, lie about their exits, and even what they're doing now, even when it's obvious they'll be caught in the lie. In their own heads, though, it might as well be true because if it just weren't for all the idiots in the world, they would have done it. In their own minds, pretending is almost as good as doing, because it's effectively true, and they're learning how to better play the part for when they inevitably hit it big.
     
  37. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    Dayyyuummm @starglider why don't you just write a novel next time. :rolleyes:
     
  38. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, or that.
     
  39. azblackbird

    azblackbird Cleared for Takeoff

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    Okay guys... let's get back to talking about re-furbished aircraft, enough of your Sigmund Freud psychobabble BS. You want to ask questions, feel free, I have nothing to hide. Of course that works both ways ya know... :yesnod:
     
  40. Salty

    Salty Cleared for Takeoff

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    When is your first lesson?
     
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