Is the navigator cert still possible?

R

Roller

Ejection Handle Pulled
Joined
Jan 21, 2025
Messages
638
Display Name
Roller
Well, I was hopin’ to get a bit of a project rating and thought this might be somethin’ I could really sink my teeth into after givin' the 8083-18 handbook a good look.

Is that still a possibility?

Much obliged.
 
I recall reading about someone who got his flight navigator certificate for a commemorative flight, maybe the 75th anniversary of the NC-4. I'm pretty sure there were some challenges involved in convincing the FAA that they could issue a certificate.
 
It looks like on 12/31/2023 there were only 23 people with flight navigator certificates (down 80% from 2014). It's even rarer than the recreational pilot certificate (71 in 2023).
 
MauleSkinner said:
I recall reading about someone who got his flight navigator certificate for a commemorative flight, maybe the 75th anniversary of the NC-4. I'm pretty sure there were some challenges involved in convincing the FAA that they could issue a certificate.
Click to expand...

Any additional info would be greatly appreciated
 
Roller said:
Any additional info would be greatly appreciated
Click to expand...
I’ve no additional info that would answer your question. But it sure looks like it’s an archaic thing. The 23 that still exist are probably on life support. I knew one. He did it in C-130’s. The Marine Corps was the only service that used Enlisted as Navigators. This guy changed to being a Controller. Funny story out there. Navigator tells pilot to turn 2 degrees left. Pilot says we can’t do turns that small. Navigator says ok, turn 7 degrees left. Pilot says ok. Navigator says now turn 5 degrees right.
 
Celestial Navigation at night. Who's got a sextant handy? I know the USNA still teaches it, but does anyone else in the US still teach it? I remember learning about it when I was sailing (got the book somewhere in the basement) but that was years (decades!) ago.

"A sextant is a doubly reflecting navigation instrument that measures the angular distance between two visible objects. The primary use of a sextant is to measure the angle between an astronomical object and the horizon for the purposes of celestial navigation.

Today, sextants and other instruments used to determine a ship's global position at sea remain eminently practical back-up navigation tools as they are not dependent upon electricity or reliant upon satellite signaling. "


1739122288005.png
 
I have a navigator rating from the Air Force. For grins, I wish I could convert it to a civilian navigator rating similar to the way military pilots get their civil commercial pilot certificate by taking a written test. Even though I flew fighters as a WSO/EWO, back in the day all, Air Force navigators got celestial training.
 
But where are you gonna find an airplane with an astrodome these days?
 
I think the AC-130 is the only a/c that actually has a Nav anymore. Nav does all the coursework to and from the area and then assists with comms during firing. Col. Allison Black has done a couple of interviews about her time as a Nav on an AC-130.
 
Craig said:
I think the AC-130 is the only a/c that actually has a Nav anymore. Nav does all the coursework to and from the area and then assists with comms during firing. Col. Allison Black has done a couple of interviews about her time as a Nav on an AC-130.
Click to expand...

E-3 (slowly being retired) still has a panel Nav and a sextant port.
 
luvflyin said:
I’ve no additional info that would answer your question. But it sure looks like it’s an archaic thing. The 23 that still exist are probably on life support. I knew one. He did it in C-130’s. The Marine Corps was the only service that used Enlisted as Navigators. This guy changed to being a Controller. Funny story out there. Navigator tells pilot to turn 2 degrees left. Pilot says we can’t do turns that small. Navigator says ok, turn 7 degrees left. Pilot says ok. Navigator says now turn 5 degrees right.
Click to expand...
When I showed up to Millington, my name was 1 of 7 that qualified for C-130 navigator. Gave us the night to decide. It’s strange, when I signed, I was all about going navigator but I changed my mind and stuck with ATC. Enlisted navigator used to be the highest washout out rate (50 %) in the Marines. Right up there with Force Recon. Heard the school closed back in 2004.
 
Velocity173 said:
When I showed up to Millington, my name was 1 of 7 that qualified for C-130 navigator. Gave us the night to decide. It’s strange, when I signed, I was all about going navigator but I changed my mind and stuck with ATC. Enlisted navigator used to be the highest washout out rate (50 %) in the Marines. Right up there with Force Recon. Heard the school closed back in 2004.
Click to expand...
I met one other Marine Navigator at the FAA Academy when we were instructors there in 2007. At sometime he went ATC also. Not that it would have made any difference to you, but do you know if there was an exemption to the 21 year old rule for Military Navigators like there was for CTO for Military Controllers?
 
Still looking for a PTS for this.

I know some people who have some old warbirds that have the dome, my though was do a checkride on a flight they were going to do anyway, like going to a airshow.

Another thought, does one NEED the dome? From my reading a A12 or A14 sextant should be able to shoot out normal windows, albeit not as comfortably
 
Roller said:
I know some people who have some old warbirds that have the dome, my though was do a checkride on a flight they were going to do anyway, like going to a airshow.
Click to expand...
Same for the 50 “satisfactory” celestial sightings required before the checkride?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Same for the 50 “satisfactory” celestial sightings required before the checkride?
Click to expand...


I was thinking of trying to do that on the flights at work, heavens knows got enough time in cruise
 
Roller said:
Well, I was hopin’ to get a bit of a project rating and thought this might be somethin’ I could really sink my teeth into after givin' the 8083-18 handbook a good look.

Is that still a possibility?

Much obliged.
Click to expand...
Ya thinkin’ of actually doin’ it or just getting some more ‘wallet candy.’
 
luvflyin said:
Ya thinkin’ of actually doin’ it or just getting some more ‘wallet candy.’
Click to expand...

lil of both

Always wanted to recreate one of the old mail routes in my no electric 7AC

Also be fun to see how close to the IRSs I could get on work trips

Reckon it would make for good candy too, ain’t too many navigators out there


It’s very interesting too, been trying to wrap my head around pressure pattern navigation today

 
Roller said:
lil of both

Always wanted to recreate one of the old mail routes in my no electric 7AC

Also be fun to see how close to the IRSs I could get on work trips

Reckon it would make for good candy too, ain’t too many navigators out there


It’s very interesting too, been trying to wrap my head around pressure pattern navigation today

Click to expand...
IRSs. ??
 
Roller said:
lil of both

Always wanted to recreate one of the old mail routes in my no electric 7AC

Also be fun to see how close to the IRSs I could get on work trips

Reckon it would make for good candy too, ain’t too many navigators out there


It’s very interesting too, been trying to wrap my head around pressure pattern navigation today

Click to expand...
Barry Schiff wrote a good article about pressure pattern navigation in one of his regular columns. I’ve got it a book collection of his. It’s fascinating how simple it is and that it works!
 
luvflyin said:
I met one other Marine Navigator at the FAA Academy when we were instructors there in 2007. At sometime he went ATC also. Not that it would have made any difference to you, but do you know if there was an exemption to the 21 year old rule for Military Navigators like there was for CTO for Military Controllers?
Click to expand...
Don’t recall an exception to the age requirement.
 
Craig said:
I think the AC-130 is the only a/c that actually has a Nav anymore. Nav does all the coursework to and from the area and then assists with comms during firing. Col. Allison Black has done a couple of interviews about her time as a Nav on an AC-130.
Click to expand...
B-52 and B-1B still uses Navigators, there used to be two positions in the B-52, Navigator and Radar Navigator/Bombardier. They may be "Bombardiers" or "Offensive System Officers" or "Weapon System Officers", but they wear the USAF Navigator Wings and rating. I used a sextant in Celestial Grid Navigation in the B-52G. When I transitioned to the B-1B, there was no sextant, no sextant port and no GPS receiver. It all relied on radar navigation updates to the internal navigation system (INS) dampened with a radar derived drift meter.

I do not know, but they they may have phased the sextant out of the B-52H with the advance of GPS into the airplane.

Retired USAF Master Navigator, B-52G, B-1B.
 
Roller said:
I was thinking of trying to do that on the flights at work, heavens knows got enough time in cruise
Click to expand...
you might get some good sighting practice, you probably wouldn’t be able to triangulate enough for a “satisfactory” position, and I suspect there would be enough refraction and/or differences in refraction to compromise accuracy.
 
Witmo said:
I have a navigator rating from the Air Force. For grins, I wish I could convert it to a civilian navigator rating similar to the way military pilots get their civil commercial pilot certificate by taking a written test. Even though I flew fighters as a WSO/EWO, back in the day all, Air Force navigators got celestial training.
Click to expand...
In the Navy us TacAir guys got zero exposure to cel nav. We sent all the prop guys to the USAF to learn it at Mather. We did a lot of DR though!
 
luvflyin said:
IRSs. ??
Click to expand...
Inertial Reference System




jsstevens said:
Barry Schiff wrote a good article about pressure pattern navigation in one of his regular columns. I’ve got it a book collection of his. It’s fascinating how simple it is and that it works!
Click to expand...

This? (PDF)

Also found someone who tried to do it for a 300nm cross country in a PA28

Pressure Pattern Navigation -

www.avcanada.ca www.avcanada.ca

As I get into this my god have mercy on any future private pilot student I might end up with ha!




MauleSkinner said:
you might get some good sighting practice, you probably wouldn’t be able to triangulate enough for a “satisfactory” position, and I suspect there would be enough refraction and/or differences in refraction to compromise accuracy.
Click to expand...

Just got a AN5851-1 sextant that’s in dang good shape

Fixin’ to replace the battery and maybe bulb with something more modern, still got a good bubble and gears are smooth

I’ll see what she can do, my understanding is if you’re within 5 miles you’re doing just fine. I read the old domes had some refraction too, same as a modern jet window, not sure.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Pugs said:
In the Navy us TacAir guys got zero exposure to cel nav. We sent all the prop guys to the USAF to learn it at Mather. We did a lot of DR though!
Click to expand...
NOAA would send their navigators to use the Mather simulator so they could get qual'd. The simulator had an astrotracker like the FB-111 used for their cel shots. I acquired a B-52 sextant similar to the one that we used in the T-43. I also have an antique marine sextant from late 18th, early 19th century.
 
Roller said:
Inertial Reference System






This? (PDF)

Also found someone who tried to do it for a 300nm cross country in a PA28

Pressure Pattern Navigation -

www.avcanada.ca www.avcanada.ca

As I get into this my god have mercy on any future private pilot student I might end up with ha!






Just got a AN5851-1 sextant that’s in dang good shape

Fixin’ to replace the battery and maybe bulb with something more modern, still got a good bubble and gears are smooth

I’ll see what she can do, my understanding is if you’re within 5 miles you’re doing just fine. I read the old domes had some refraction too, same as a modern jet window, not sure.
Click to expand...
Not sure what that link lead to other than a discussion of using it. The one I read is chapter 23 of The Proficient Pilot Volume 1.
 
I swear one of the aviation magazines had a recent-ish article about this in the past 6 months. I searched the AOPA and EAA magazine archives and didn't get a hit though.
 
jsstevens said:
Not sure what that link lead to other than a discussion of using it. The one I read is chapter 23 of The Proficient Pilot Volume 1.
Click to expand...

I think I attached the PDF of it to my last post
 
Pugs said:
In the Navy us TacAir guys got zero exposure to cel nav. We sent all the prop guys to the USAF to learn it at Mather. We did a lot of DR though!
Click to expand...
I had a few of them in my class at Mather, 1983. Cell Nav and Pressure Pattern Nav in the T-43. The Navy guys got LORAN, us AF types did not. But we did "airborne radar directed approaches" with the crappiest display on the T-43 ground mapping radar.
 
BillTIZ said:
I had a few of them in my class at Mather, 1983. Cell Nav and Pressure Pattern Nav in the T-43. The Navy guys got LORAN, us AF types did not. But we did "airborne radar directed approaches" with the crappiest display on the T-43 ground mapping radar.
Click to expand...
Ah, I remember flying ARAs in C-130s back in the day, some even for real not just training proficiency.
 
My Dad talked about doing ARAs in a couple of the ASW planes he flew. I don't know if it was condoned or something he worked up with his radar operator as a just in case deal.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top