Is it just me....

Why would you think that I would be surprised by any of those situations?
I didn't intend to say that you'd be personally surprised by what the CDI indicated, but rather that I thought you'd be surprised how many people try to fly VOR's based on the simplistic "needle left/turn left" concept originally stated by tehmightypirate. That concept is a barrier to accurate instrument flying, and it takes time to break that bad habit/thought pattern and dtuuri's example is exactly what happens when pilots think that way. When they start work on their IR, it takes a lot of time and effort to replace that misconception with proper interpretation of the CDI and application of its indications. That's why I get upset when a relatively inexperienced non-IR Private Pilot expresses that concept as a good way to think, and then, when I suggest based on a couple of thousand hours of instrument training given that it's counterproductive, argues with me trying to justify his position.

As for how to learn this properly, it's thoroughly discussed with pictures in Chapter 5 of Peter Dogan's The Instrument Flight Training Manual, widely available in the internet.
 
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Ron: you're probably right, there are lots of private pilots out there who haven't really studied the VOR, they were taught to use it that way in primary training and never given a better understanding of how it works.

TMP: if you feel like playing, imagine you're on the 185 radial of a VOR, heading 010 with 180 selected on the OBS. Is the CDI showing left of course or right, and what does the to/from flag read?
 
Actually THAT might be a useful discussion to have. More useful anyway than jumping on someone for saying something that MIGHT (or might not) be a red flag pointing to a misunderstanding.

Again, thank you.

That's why I get upset when a relatively inexperienced non-IR Private Pilot expresses that concept as a good way to think, and then, when I suggest based on a couple of thousand hours of instrument training given that it's counterproductive, argues with me trying to justify his position.

Seriously?! You're going to call me out like that. Well fine then! I was going to just leave it alone but if you're going to hit the horse one more time then so can I.

READ WHAT I'M WRITING!

Yes, I made some comments which, given that this is clearly a pet-peeve of yours, obviously would make you think I'm an idiot who has no idea how to use a VOR and CDI.

NO
THIS
IS
NOT
HOW
I
WAS
TAUGHT
OR
THINK!

Is that clear enough for you?

Please stop suggesting I have no idea how to use a VOR and CDI. Please stop suggesting that I was implying that this is how people should use a VOR and CDI. Please stop suggesting that I'm trying to argue with you on how to use a VOR and CDI.

I wasn't even suggesting anything, I was just commenting on the fact that in the plane you have more information than a static image of a CDI on a page in a book. What you're talking about isn't even on the same topic.

I made that comment about left/right at the end of a half minute comment that I wrote while at work. I wasn't suggesting anything about how one should (or shouldn't) utilize a VOR and CDI. I then quickly replied during lunch about what I meant with my single half minute comment. I wasn't suggesting that's how I use a VOR and CDI. Finally, on MULTIPLE TIMES, I specified that you're entirely right that a VOR is much more complicated than that AND that you shouldn't use it as a turn LEFT/RIGHT indicator. I was deliberately over-simplifying as an effort to make my comment easier to understand and as an example of dumb pre-solo me, I wasn't trying to discuss how a VOR works.

I get it, you see people who have this problem so you want to make an effort to make sure nobody gets confused. Fine, but continually beating this dead horse over and over while I was telling you that you were right seems beyond foolish to me. It's like for some reason you seem to think that I need a spanking for daring to say anything that wasn't "sir, yes sir!".

You clearly have no interest in teaching me HOW to use a VOR because every comment you've made has been argumentative. Saying things like "you'll discover that you are in fact examining a trivial case", "your technique will fail you in most situations", "your statement shows a fundamental misconception about the VOR nav system", and especially "That's why I get upset when a relatively inexperienced non-IR Private Pilot expresses that concept as a good way to think, and then, when I suggest based on a couple of thousand hours of instrument training given that it's counterproductive, argues with me trying to justify his position."

Are you really a 10-billion hour instructor because you seem more like a 10,000 post internet forum kid. dtuuri and azure seem to have responded to this much more reasonably than you have.

Now, don't get me wrong, I like your be 100%-correct-all-the-time-in-what-you-say-and-do attitude because it makes us better pilots and I'm quite impressed with your knowledge from the short time I've been on these forums. But, despite my low hours, I've been around enough to know the difference between a teacher and a know-it-all. You tend to run along that line very, very tightly. I respect you a lot Ron but, please, either apologize or just drop it.

You're 100% right that a CDI is not just turn right/left. You're 100% wrong on everything else you've said here.

P.S. Per the forum Rules of Conduct:

Goals of the Forums
Show respect at all times.
Help build the Community.

Personal attacks are prohibited.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_faq_rules_of_conduct

Please continue to tell me how wrong I am.

TMP: if you feel like playing, imagine you're on the 185 radial of a VOR, heading 010 with 180 selected on the OBS. Is the CDI showing left of course or right, and what does the to/from flag read?

Okay, so by the fact that we're on the 185 radial we're roughly South of the VOR.

We're headed almost North so we're inbound to the VOR with an outbound radial selected of 180. Thus we'll have a FROM flag shown on the CDI.

In this case the CDI will be deflected to the left of the course (on a HSI it would be deflected to the right of the instrument, left of the course). But as our selected course is almost backwards this is indicating that course is to East of the outbound radial but as we are headed inbound we must turn right to intercept the 180 radial.

A quick check of a MFD or GPS would double check this. We would see us northbound to the south of the VOR. As 180 is East of the 185 radial and, we are on the 185 radial, then we must turn East (right) to intercept the 180 radial.
 
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READ WHAT I'M WRITING!
...

Please continue to tell me how wrong I am.
TMP: if you feel like playing, imagine you're on the 185 radial of a VOR, heading 010 with 180 selected on the OBS. Is the CDI showing left of course or right, and what does the to/from flag read?

Okay, so by the fact that we're on the 185 radial we're roughly South of the VOR.

We're headed almost North so we're inbound to the VOR with an outbound radial selected of 180. Thus we'll have a FROM flag shown on the CDI.

In this case the CDI will be deflected to the right side.
Quick! Edit this before you-know-who sees it! :devil:

dtuuri
 
Quick! Edit this before you-know-who sees it! :devil:

dtuuri

I assume you mean that I should have said "left of the course". I meant to say to the right of the indicator, couldn't think of a better way to describe the position of the needle.

EDIT: Oh, I see my mistake, I was thinking in terms of an HSI, not a CDI.
 
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Okay, so by the fact that we're on the 185 radial we're roughly South of the VOR.
Yes.
We're headed almost North so we're inbound to the VOR with an outbound radial selected of 180. Thus we'll have a FROM flag shown on the CDI.
Correct.
In this case the CDI will be deflected to the right side. But as our selected course is almost backwards this is indicating that course is to East of the outbound radial but as we are headed inbound we must turn right to intercept the 180 radial.
Correct conclusion, but you're wrong about the CDI, assuming a conventional CDI indicator. Remember, it doesn't know anything about your heading. If you were headed outbound, which is the "normal" direction for that OBS setting, which direction is the course? Which way would the CDI be deflected? Inbound, it's going to be deflected the same way.

Just to be clear: you're left of course, and your CDI is deflected to the left.
 
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Correct conclusion, but you're wrong about the CDI, assuming a conventional CDI indicator. Remember, it doesn't know anything about your heading. If you were headed outbound, which is the "normal" direction for that OBS setting, which direction is the course? Which way would the CDI be deflected? Inbound, it's going to be deflected the same way.

Oh, my problem is I'm imagining a HSI in my head like on the G1000 I use.

My mistake, on a CDI it would show to the LEFT (that's why I should have said left of course). On a HSI (which knows your heading) the needle would be pointed aft and thus it would be on the right of the instrument.

I should have noted the difference between an HSI and a CDI as we've been talking about CDIs up until now.
 
Oh, my problem is I'm imagining a HSI in my head like on the G1000 I use.

My mistake, on a CDI it would show to the LEFT (that's why I should have said left of course). On a HSI (which knows your heading) the needle would be pointed aft and thus it would be on the right of the instrument.

I should have noted the difference between an HSI and a CDI as we've been talking about CDIs up until now.
Yeah, I prefer HSIs too for just that reason. No mental gymnastics required. You can still get caught by unexpected reverse sensing though if you're not careful.

That happened to me for real last spring. :(
 
Yeah, I prefer HSIs too for just that reason. No mental gymnastics required. You can still get caught by unexpected reverse sensing though if you're not careful.

That happened to me for real last spring. :(
A back course by chance? Gotta remember to set the arrowhead to the front course.

dtuuri
 
Ron: you're probably right, there are lots of private pilots out there who haven't really studied the VOR, they were taught to use it that way in primary training and never given a better understanding of how it works.
Exactly why I keep :mad2: over this issue -- it's a systemic problem of bad training, not anything for which the poor PP never taught any better is responsible.

TMP: if you feel like playing, imagine you're on the 185 radial of a VOR, heading 010 with 180 selected on the OBS. Is the CDI showing left of course or right, and what does the to/from flag read?
The CDI cannot show whether you are left or right of that 180 course line, only whether it is east or west of you. Internalize that concept and you're halfway home.
 
A back course by chance? Gotta remember to set the arrowhead to the front course.

dtuuri
You'd think so, but no, it was a front course. A 480 driving a Sandel with auto-slew enabled. Cleared for the approach, EXEC'd the approach-loaded flight plan, expected the Sandel to slew to the FAC, didn't check carefully enough that it hadn't. Link 1 in the accident chain. Lamp in the Sandel was bad, lots of diffuse light in the cloud, hard to see that the course pointer was pointing the wrong way. Link 2. Noticed reverse sensing and took a closer look at the instrument, realized what had happened, manually slewed it, started to get back on course. Chain broken. 15 seconds later the controller came on with "Having a little trouble finding the localizer today, are we, 8JT?" :redface:

The root cause was not understanding my 480 well enough -- thinking that where it inserts approaches in a flight plan, is the same as where it inserts them when you've done D->DEST. A subtle point that could have gotten me a PD -- or worse. You really gotta know the stuff in your panel when you're flying in actual.

Some would say auto-slew is dangerous. That's a whole other thread...
 
Oh, my problem is I'm imagining a HSI in my head like on the G1000 I use.
The penny drops. Now, what do you do when the AHRS dumps and you get that numberless CDI display in place of the HSI display? I hope at that point you will forget all this left/right business and apply the lessons I've been trying to point out here and Dogan explains in detail in his book. Otherwise, you're never going to get where you want to go.
 
A back course by chance? Gotta remember to set the arrowhead to the front course.
Same way you set the CDI to the front course, too, if you want to make steering a lot easier, and look at the bottom for heading guidance instead of the top. I teach this particular trick during IR training all the time, and it makes all the difference in the world in a LOC BC approach.
 
Wrong. Heading was given as 010.
Missed that myself. Post deleted. But the CDI will still never show you left/right of the 180 course line which was set, only east/west, and even if you know your heading is 010, you still don't know whether to turn left or right unless you also see which way the needle is moving, not just where it is -- think wind (we had a 20-degree WCA Friday night over East Texas and Louisiana).
 
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Missed that myself. Post deleted. But the CDI will still never show you left/right of the 180 course line which was set, only east/west, and even if you know your heading is 010, you still don't know whether to turn left or right unless you also see which way the needle is moving, not just where it is -- think wind (we had a 20-degree WCA Friday night over East Texas and Louisiana).
Of course you don't know which way to turn, or whether you need to turn at all from that heading without watching the trend, but that wasn't what I asked TMP. The question was, given that heading, does the CDI "show" you left or right of course? Or put another way, is it deflected to the left or the right?

On the east/west thing, I'm really not sure if you're just pedantically preaching to the choir or whether you have some great practical technique here that I was never taught. Actually I'm sure you do, every good instructor has tricks and techniques that make flying instruments easier. But so far, all you've been doing is hammering away at a basic point that everyone posting here already knows.
 
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TMP: if you feel like playing, imagine you're on the 185 radial of a VOR, heading 010 with 180 selected on the OBS. Is the CDI showing left of course or right, and what does the to/from flag read?
Perhaps the bigger question would be; WHY would you be inbound (heading 010*) on the 185* radial with 180* selected on the OBS :confused:
 
Of course you don't know which way to turn, or whether you need to turn at all from that heading without watching the trend, but that wasn't what I asked TMP. The question was, given that heading, does the CDI "show" you left or right of course?
It cannot show you left/right of course.
Or put another way, is it deflected to the left or the right?
Ah...now that's why we look at the CDI. Then, based on left/right deflection and the selected course, we can determine the cardinal direction of the course line in relation to our position.

On the east/west thing, I'm really not sure if you're just pedantically preaching to the choir or whether you have some great practical technique here that I was never taught. Actually I'm sure you do, every good instructor has tricks and techniques that make flying instruments easier. But so far, all you've been doing is hammering away at a basic point that everyone posting here already knows.
Then why do they keep posting things about turning left/right or being left/right of the course line based only on CDI needle position?:mad2:
 
Perhaps the bigger question would be; WHY would you be inbound (heading 010*) on the 185* radial with 180* selected on the OBS :confused:
Because your instructor is testing your understanding of how CDI's work? Or maybe training you to fly a LOC course backwards when there's no LOC available on which to practice going backwards?
 
Ron,

Just curious...how many hours of IR instruction you have and your pass rate? You have a lot of knowledge which is why I ask.
 
Look, this is the stuff that I think it should focus on. The crap I am talking about are the questions like:

(Refer to Figure 143 above) The heading on a remote indicating compass is 5 degrees to the left of that desired. What action is required to move the desired heading under the heading reference?
a. Select the free gyro mode and depress the clockwise heading drive button.
b. Select the slaved gyro mode and depress the clockwise heading drive button.
c. Select the free gyro mode and depress the counter-clockwise heading drive button.
The irrelevancy with questions like this.....if I turn the knob the wrong way and discover it's the wrong way, I can always turn it back the right way.
 
Ron,

Just curious...how many hours of IR instruction you have and your pass rate? You have a lot of knowledge which is why I ask.
A tad over 2000 instrument flight instruction, but I don't bother tracking my sim instructing time, and I do a lot of that, so it's hard to say how much total instrument instructor time I have -- maybe 3000 total. Historical pass rate is around 90%.
 
The irrelevancy with questions like this.....if I turn the knob the wrong way and discover it's the wrong way, I can always turn it back the right way.
Not to mention that some have buttons, some have knobs, and some have switches. :mad2:
 
Knowing the material rather than just the answers isn't how you got your Phd? :confused:

dtuuri
i got mine thru the judicious use of video tape that only 2 other people have ever seen.......we really need an evil laugh smiley.
 
Knowing the material rather than just the answers isn't how you got your Phd? :confused:

No, I earned my PhD by creating new material. An original contribution to the knowledge of mankind is a required part of earning the degree. It also helps to know when to give the 'right' answer to pass a particular committee member's question and how to discuss the facts surrounding that answer. Bottom line is that the questions and answers don't necessarily reflect the material and that is a problem on the FAA tests. You can continue to deny that fact but it doesn't change the fact.

So I still ask the question - are you for real - and you haven't addressed why I asked the question. I'm sure I'm not the only one who asked that particular question.
 
The CDI cannot show whether you are left or right of that 180 course line, only whether it is east or west of you. Internalize that concept and you're halfway home.

Fantastic tip.
 
In fact, I can show you many VOR situations where with the needle left of center you have to turn right -- and I'm not talking LOC BC, either.

Ron, can you tell us what situations you are refering to? Obviously, if you the OBS is set to a northerly heading, and your are on a southerly heading, you get reverse sensing. Also, someone mentioned the wind correction may come into play. What else are you refering to, if any?

Probably the biggest thing to understand that I see lots of confusion about is that the to/from flag doesn't say beans about the direction your plane is pointed; it only indicates on which side of the VOR the course selected with OBS is located.
 
Same way you set the CDI to the front course, too, if you want to make steering a lot easier, and look at the bottom for heading guidance instead of the top. I teach this particular trick during IR training all the time, and it makes all the difference in the world in a LOC BC approach.


Unless you have a "back course" button on your ARC 200 autopilot, like I do.

Serious question, though: Would you recomend just not using the BC function and train to set the OBS to the front course, and use the the bottom window of the CDI for heading guidance? It seems if you learned and trained to do it your suggested way (and simply ignored the BC function), then it would be transferable to any other plane.
 
The penny drops. Now, what do you do when the AHRS dumps and you get that numberless CDI display in place of the HSI display? I hope at that point you will forget all this left/right business and apply the lessons I've been trying to point out here and Dogan explains in detail in his book. Otherwise, you're never going to get where you want to go.

See this just proves my ORIGINAL point, in a plane you have more information that a simple question gives you. I was mentally thinking HSI when I should have been thinking CDI. In a actual plane this wouldn't be an issue, you either look at a CDI or you look at a HSI and you either know how to read it or you don't. You wouldn't have even know if I had originally written "left of course" and not "right on the instrument". So, I don't see how there's any pennies involved, I understood the concept and simultaneously proved your point a while back that one should practice for the IFR in only one plane because otherwise it can get confusing.

I definitely don't rely on the HSI and have no trouble following a CDI. I often will dump the ADC in the G1000 simulator and fly around via GPS or VOR.

And, guess what, East/West is just another term for Left/Right. It's all about your frame of reference. Now, you're probably going to get confused again and think something other than what I'm saying but it doesn't change the fact that what you REALLY mean is East/West/Left/Right/Port/Starboard/North/South of the course. It's all relative to the course and whatever terminology you use is entirely irrelevant as long as everyone understands its in relation to the course.
 
Bottom line is that the questions and answers don't necessarily reflect the material and that is a problem on the FAA tests.
The question, whether or not I think better use of the space can be made, does test knowledge of remote compass operating principles, ie, unslave before turning the remote system's card to match the compass card. I don't think they even need a figure with the question unless they're just trying to distract you to make it a tiny bit harder.

dtuuri
 
The question, whether or not I think better use of the space can be made, does test knowledge of remote compass operating principles, ie, unslave before turning the remote system's card to match the compass card. I don't think they even need a figure with the question unless they're just trying to distract you to make it a tiny bit harder.

The question does not test the concept, it tests the applicants knowledge of a particular instrument which chances are the applicant has never seen and likely will never see.

The FAA tests are full of question like that and those types of questions are wholly inappropriate in assessing the competence of an applicant at anything other than being able to memorize questions and answers.
 
Ron, can you tell us what situations you are refering to? Obviously, if you the OBS is set to a northerly heading,
You can set the OBS to a northerly course, but not to a northerly heading. Mixing up the terms course, track, and heading is the path to confusing the problem. Here's a reminder:

  • Course is the direction over the ground you want to fly.
  • Heading is the direction the nose is pointed.
  • Track is the direction over the ground you are actually flying.
and your are on a southerly heading, you get reverse sensing.
There is no such thing as "reverse sensing". When a VOR is selected, the needle will always go to the side of the indicator corresponding to the cardinal direction of the selected course line from the aircraft's position. "Reverse sensing" is a misconception associated with thinking left/right instead of east/west or north/south and does not exist.

So let's take the scenario discussed above -- heading 010, 180 course selected, currently on the 185 radial. For orientation, with a 180 course selected, the top of the CDI corresponds to south, the bottom to north, the left side to east, and the right side to west. In this situation, you are located west of the 180/360 course line, meaning the course line is east of you. Therefore, the needle will be deflected to the east side of the CDI, which happens to be the left side. If you look at that side of the case, you'll see a big E or 9, meaning you have to fly east or 090 to go straight-line/shortest distance to that course line.

In addition, you'll see a FROM flag, indicating you are south of the perpendicular line across the course line through the station. You can then see that to join that course line headed south (outbound), you have to turn southeast. Now you look at your heading indicator (HI). With 010 at the top, you see that a southeasterly heading like 135 is to the right of the nose, so you turn right to join that course line southbound even though the needle is deflected to the left.

Now, let's say you want to join that same 180/360 course line headed north instead of south, but for whatever reason (say you're training for LOC BC approaches), you leave the OBS set to 180. Everything in the second paragraph above is still true -- the needle is still deflected to the east (left) side of the CDI. However, if you are east of that course line and south of the perpendicular, you can easily visualize that you need a northeast heading to join that course line northbound -- and you can help yourself by looking at the CDI to do that. Since the needle is deflected east, and you want to go north, pick a heading off that CDI OBS ring between the side to which the needle is pointing (E/9) and the desired course (N/36) on that OBS, such as 045. Now look at the heading indicator, and you'll see that once again a right turn is needed to get to the desired heading despite the needle being to the left.

The key is using the CDI to tell you the direction you want to fly to get to the desired course line, and then using the HI to tell you which way to turn.

Also, someone mentioned the wind correction may come into play. What else are you refering to, if any?
Let's say you want to join the 180 radial inbound from south of the station, i.e., a 360 course TO the station. You set the OBS to 360, see that it is deflected 5 degrees to the east side of the case (in this case, the right side). That means you are 5 degrees west of the 180 radial, or on the 185 radial. Your heading indicator is on 010. Do you need to turn left, right, or not at all to intercept the 180 inbound?

The answer is "insufficient information". The initial answer might be that since we are west of the course line, but our heading is to the east of it, we can just stay on heading and intercept. That would be true if and only if you see the needle moving from right to left showing your track is angled towards the selected course line.

However, say you have a strong wind from the east such that your course is 355 even though your heading is 010. In that case, you'll see that not only is the needle 5 degrees to the east of 360, it's moving further east, meaning you are moving further away from the course line. You will have to turn further east to counter the wind, and that means looking at the HI to see you need to turn right of 010. As you turn, the needle will stop moving as you exactly counter the wind, and then start to move back the other way towards the west side of the CDI once your track is moving towards the 180 radial.

OTOH, let's say the needle is stationary, showing you are tracking directly to the station, but on the 185 radial, not the 180 radial. In that case, you'll have to make a small heading change to the east to get your track more easterly towards the desired course line. Of course, if you're flying a holding pattern at a VOR station, you probably don't want to make much of an adjustment at all, maybe none. Inside one minute from the station, being 5 degrees off the radial is very well within the protected airspace. If you do nothing and the needle stays where it is, you'll fly right over the station only 5 degrees off the desired course, but if you start trying to catch it inside 2 miles, you're more likely to get yourself in an S-turning chase than to cross the station wings-level on or close to the desired inbound course.

Now, let's go back to that upside-down case, where you want to track backwards, like going out the front course or in the back course of a LOC. Remember that the LOC signal is different from VOR, and it doesn't matter what you spin on the OBS, it will act like you have set the forward direction (the front course inbound course or back course outbound course). If you set the CDI on the forwards direction, then you can use the technique I described above to track it. Let's say we're trying to go inbound on the front course of a LOC 27. You put the 27 at the top. Say you are south of the course -- the needle deflects to the right (north) side of the CDI. If you fly a heading to the north side of 270 (e.g., 300), that will take you to the localizer in the direction you want to go (wind factors ignored for the moment).

What about going backwards on that 27 localizer, i.e., out the inbound or in the outbound? If you set the desired course (090) on the CDI, that will have no effect on needle movement. If you are south of the localizer, the needle will still deflect to the right side of the case even though you have now caused the S/18 to be on that side. Now you have to ignore the numbers on the OBS ring, and think to yourself "with a 27 localizer, the right side is north, so I need a heading north of the 090 course such as 060 to intercept." And if you are on 090 at this point, that is a left turn, not right, even though the needle is deflected right. That's what people mistakenly call "reverse sensing" even though it is still responding the same based on the position of the aircraft.

You can help yourself in this case by putting the OBS on 27 instead of 9, which will give you 27 at the top and 9 at the bottom. Now the needle is deflected towards the S/18, and if you look between the 18 and the desired 9 course at the bottom of the CDI, you will see that a northeasterly heading such as 060 is needed to get you onto the localizer. If you're currently headed 090, your heading indicator tells you that you need a left turn to alter your track so it will intercept the localizer.

IOW, to fly a localizer , you set the OBS to the forwards direction regardless of which way you want to fly it, see what the needle points to, pick a heading between the desired course (i.e., top for forwards, bottom for backwards) and the direction to which the needle points, and then look at the HI to decide which way to turn.

Whew! My fingers are tired.

Probably the biggest thing to understand that I see lots of confusion about is that the to/from flag doesn't say beans about the direction your plane is pointed; it only indicates on which side of the VOR the course selected with OBS is located.
Yup.
 
The question does not test the concept, it tests the applicants knowledge of a particular instrument which chances are the applicant has never seen and likely will never see.
Most instrument airplanes I've been in have not just one, but two RMIs driven by two remote compasses. Maybe you won't personally ever see one...

dtuuri
 
See this just proves my ORIGINAL point, in a plane you have more information that a simple question gives you. I was mentally thinking HSI when I should have been thinking CDI. In a actual plane this wouldn't be an issue, you either look at a CDI or you look at a HSI and you either know how to read it or you don't. You wouldn't have even know if I had originally written "left of course" and not "right on the instrument".
Yes, I would have. You aren't "left of course" just because the needle is to the right. You also need your heading since the course can be to your right even when the needle is to the left, and if you're trying to fly a localizer backwards or you're outbound in a holding pattern, it's all reversed in left/right terms, but not in north/south/east/west terms.

You keep mixing incompatible terms and the result of that when training pilots for instrument flying is confusion. BTDT, cleaned up the mess.
 
Unless you have a "back course" button on your ARC 200 autopilot, like I do.
If you have it, use it.

Serious question, though: Would you recomend just not using the BC function and train to set the OBS to the front course, and use the the bottom window of the CDI for heading guidance? It seems if you learned and trained to do it your suggested way (and simply ignored the BC function), then it would be transferable to any other plane.
If you don't have a BC button like those old Cessna ARC CDI's, yes -- see my full explanation above.
 
The question does not test the concept, it tests the applicants knowledge of a particular instrument which chances are the applicant has never seen and likely will never see.

The FAA tests are full of question like that and those types of questions are wholly inappropriate in assessing the competence of an applicant at anything other than being able to memorize questions and answers.
Amen, Brother Clark, amen.
 
There is no such thing as "reverse sensing". When a VOR is selected, the needle will always go to the side of the indicator corresponding to the cardinal direction of the selected course line from the aircraft's position. "Reverse sensing" is a misconception associated with thinking left/right instead of east/west or north/south and does not exist.

You've gone too far! Yes there is, according the Instrument Flying Handbook:
"VOR Operational Errors
Typical pilot-induced errors include:
1. Careless tuning and identification of station.
2. Failure to check receiver for accuracy/sensitivity.
3. Turning in the wrong direction during an orientation.
This error is common until visualizing position rather
than heading.
4. Failure to check the ambiguity (TO/FROM) indicator,
particularly during course reversals, resulting in reverse
sensing
and corrections in the wrong direction."​

dtuuri
 
You can set the OBS to a northerly course, but not to a northerly heading. Mixing up the terms course, track, and heading is the path to confusing the problem. Here's a reminder:

  • Course is the direction over the ground you want to fly.
  • Heading is the direction the nose is pointed.
  • Track is the direction over the ground you are actually flying.
There is no such thing as "reverse sensing". When a VOR is selected, the needle will always go to the side of the indicator corresponding to the cardinal direction of the selected course line from the aircraft's position. "Reverse sensing" is a misconception associated with thinking left/right instead of east/west or north/south and does not exist.

So let's take the scenario discussed above -- heading 010, 180 course selected, currently on the 185 radial. For orientation, with a 180 course selected, the top of the CDI corresponds to south, the bottom to north, the left side to east, and the right side to west. In this situation, you are located west of the 180/360 course line, meaning the course line is east of you. Therefore, the needle will be deflected to the east side of the CDI, which happens to be the left side. If you look at that side of the case, you'll see a big E or 9, meaning you have to fly east or 090 to go straight-line/shortest distance to that course line.

In addition, you'll see a FROM flag, indicating you are south of the perpendicular line across the course line through the station. You can then see that to join that course line headed south (outbound), you have to turn southeast. Now you look at your heading indicator (HI). With 010 at the top, you see that a southeasterly heading like 135 is to the right of the nose, so you turn right to join that course line southbound even though the needle is deflected to the left.

Now, let's say you want to join that same 180/360 course line headed north instead of south, but for whatever reason (say you're training for LOC BC approaches), you leave the OBS set to 180. Everything in the second paragraph above is still true -- the needle is still deflected to the east (left) side of the CDI. However, if you are east of that course line and south of the perpendicular, you can easily visualize that you need a northeast heading to join that course line northbound -- and you can help yourself by looking at the CDI to do that. Since the needle is deflected east, and you want to go north, pick a heading off that CDI OBS ring between the side to which the needle is pointing (E/9) and the desired course (N/36) on that OBS, such as 045. Now look at the heading indicator, and you'll see that once again a right turn is needed to get to the desired heading despite the needle being to the left.

The key is using the CDI to tell you the direction you want to fly to get to the desired course line, and then using the HI to tell you which way to turn.

Let's say you want to join the 180 radial inbound from south of the station, i.e., a 360 course TO the station. You set the OBS to 360, see that it is deflected 5 degrees to the east side of the case (in this case, the right side). That means you are 5 degrees west of the 180 radial, or on the 185 radial. Your heading indicator is on 010. Do you need to turn left, right, or not at all to intercept the 180 inbound?

The answer is "insufficient information". The initial answer might be that since we are west of the course line, but our heading is to the east of it, we can just stay on heading and intercept. That would be true if and only if you see the needle moving from right to left showing your track is angled towards the selected course line.

However, say you have a strong wind from the east such that your course is 355 even though your heading is 010. In that case, you'll see that not only is the needle 5 degrees to the east of 360, it's moving further east, meaning you are moving further away from the course line. You will have to turn further east to counter the wind, and that means looking at the HI to see you need to turn right of 010. As you turn, the needle will stop moving as you exactly counter the wind, and then start to move back the other way towards the west side of the CDI once your track is moving towards the 180 radial.

OTOH, let's say the needle is stationary, showing you are tracking directly to the station, but on the 185 radial, not the 180 radial. In that case, you'll have to make a small heading change to the east to get your track more easterly towards the desired course line. Of course, if you're flying a holding pattern at a VOR station, you probably don't want to make much of an adjustment at all, maybe none. Inside one minute from the station, being 5 degrees off the radial is very well within the protected airspace. If you do nothing and the needle stays where it is, you'll fly right over the station only 5 degrees off the desired course, but if you start trying to catch it inside 2 miles, you're more likely to get yourself in an S-turning chase than to cross the station wings-level on or close to the desired inbound course.

Now, let's go back to that upside-down case, where you want to track backwards, like going out the front course or in the back course of a LOC. Remember that the LOC signal is different from VOR, and it doesn't matter what you spin on the OBS, it will act like you have set the forward direction (the front course inbound course or back course outbound course). If you set the CDI on the forwards direction, then you can use the technique I described above to track it. Let's say we're trying to go inbound on the front course of a LOC 27. You put the 27 at the top. Say you are south of the course -- the needle deflects to the right (north) side of the CDI. If you fly a heading to the north side of 270 (e.g., 300), that will take you to the localizer in the direction you want to go (wind factors ignored for the moment).

What about going backwards on that 27 localizer, i.e., out the inbound or in the outbound? If you set the desired course (090) on the CDI, that will have no effect on needle movement. If you are south of the localizer, the needle will still deflect to the right side of the case even though you have now caused the S/18 to be on that side. Now you have to ignore the numbers on the OBS ring, and think to yourself "with a 27 localizer, the right side is north, so I need a heading north of the 090 course such as 060 to intercept." And if you are on 090 at this point, that is a left turn, not right, even though the needle is deflected right. That's what people mistakenly call "reverse sensing" even though it is still responding the same based on the position of the aircraft.

You can help yourself in this case by putting the OBS on 27 instead of 9, which will give you 27 at the top and 9 at the bottom. Now the needle is deflected towards the S/18, and if you look between the 18 and the desired 9 course at the bottom of the CDI, you will see that a northeasterly heading such as 060 is needed to get you onto the localizer. If you're currently headed 090, your heading indicator tells you that you need a left turn to alter your track so it will intercept the localizer.

IOW, to fly a localizer , you set the OBS to the forwards direction regardless of which way you want to fly it, see what the needle points to, pick a heading between the desired course (i.e., top for forwards, bottom for backwards) and the direction to which the needle points, and then look at the HI to decide which way to turn.

Whew! My fingers are tired.

Yup.


I know it is not realistic, but after the lessons we have seen in 5 pages I have came to hope for a IR written/oral tips thread. I am aware thats what the paid CFI's are for though, I am just glad to add these discussions to my list of new found knowledge.
 
You can help yourself in this case by putting the OBS on 27 instead of 9, which will give you 27 at the top and 9 at the bottom. Now the needle is deflected towards the S/18, and if you look between the 18 and the desired 9 course at the bottom of the CDI, you will see that a northeasterly heading such as 060 is needed to get you onto the localizer. If you're currently headed 090, your heading indicator tells you that you need a left turn to alter your track so it will intercept the localizer.
Minor nit: if you're south of a LOC 27 course, the needle will be deflected to the right, as you said in the previous paragraph. If you put the OBS on 27 then the needle is seen to be deflected towards the N/36, and you can find 060 between 360 and the desired 090 course.

But I do like your way of looking at the CDI: it's elegant and situational. It's just not the way I think when I'm in the plane. There is more than one way to think about it that will always give the right answer. I do believe that your way is the best way I've seen to TEACH it. But that doesn't mean that other people are confused when they talk about it in ways that make you bang your head.
 
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