Ironclad Strip and Paint Contract?

catmandu

catmandu

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Catmandu
I remember someone posted a pretty good example somewhere, was it here? Or does anyone have a good example? Not looking towards litigation, just want something to eliminate most of the bumps with other's lessons learned.
 
catmandu said:
does anyone have a good example?
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Didn't use too many aircraft paint shops when assisting customers with a repaint, but the ones I was involved with didn't use any "contracts." It was just a normal shop work order/work request form that detailed the work to be performed and signed by the aircraft owner. No different than any other work like engine changes, etc. While there might be some that go the extra distance with an actual "contract" I haven't seen one. Is there a specific issue you're concerned about?
 
Bell206 said:
Didn't use too many aircraft paint shops when assisting customers with a repaint, but the ones I was involved with didn't use any "contracts." It was just a normal shop work order/work request form that detailed the work to be performed and signed by the aircraft owner. No different than any other work like engine changes, etc. While there might be some that go the extra distance with an actual "contract" I haven't seen one. Is there a specific issue you're concerned about?
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I always find this amazing. Yes I’m a lawyer. But I’ve had too many people walk into my office after getting screwed on a deal - some for serious money - and had nothing in writing. Sure, that isn’t fatal to your ability to collect but it’s much much harder and more expensive and less likely to result in a proper outcome.

The benefit of a contract is for you and the shop to understand each other. It doesn’t need to be complex. What is the scope of work? How much is going to costs? Is there a down payment? Progress payment? How long will it take? Changes? What happens if someone doesn’t comply? You can find something on lone but at least detail the basic agreement - especially if your concerned about something in particular - like how long it will take. Good luck


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Tommar98 said:
and had nothing in writing.
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FWIW: Never said there wasn't a document. Perhaps it's just the terminology used but as I stated the shop work order/work request usually defined a number of the items you mentioned and in some locals is considered a "contract." My question to the OP was partly to his use of the words "ironclad" and "contract." While I understand your implications and have helped various individuals mitigate issues with maintenance issues performed on their aircraft, it's been a rare occasion when the accompanying paperwork were labeled as a "contract"--especially when the shop is a CRS where most of their paperwork is regulatory. But you're correct in that there are a lot of "verbal contracts" within the aviation world.
 
Bell206 said:
....especially when the shop is a CRS where most of their paperwork is regulatory. But you're correct in that there are a lot of "verbal contracts" within the aviation world.
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Yes this is true. I agree “ironclad contract” would imply something more than standard terms. My guess would be something that detailed would probably cause a shop to walk away from the work or mark up the price accordingly.


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Why not just write a specification and have the shop sign off on it? Alternately, if you have a shop you like, ask them to put in writing exactly what they are doing to earn their money. If they write the document, they should be happy with it.

My experience is that verbal contracts can be tough on both parties, so I think you're headed in the right direction by getting things in writing.

(Says the guy who has a handshake deal with a paint shop to paint his RV-10... Of course, I've known the guy for 20 years, so we ought to be able to make it work.)
 
To be honest, the shop sent a very good quote that will be the basis of our contract. I just had a memory in the back of my failing mind of a post that I remember noting as a really good contractual document. Maybe it was on another forum. Oh well.
 
My only 2 cents is to have an independent mechanic look over the airplane after it’s complete. I’ve seen several instances of things not being put back together properly.
 
The best contract for strip and paint is a work order from one of the countries top notch paint shops. Depending on where the job is done, a 182 repaint will cost $15K-$18K as an example. A good question to ask is why the most expensive shops have the longest wait lists? The labor component involved is tremendous.

For me the best defense against issues is a shop with a great reputation and properly staffed with employees of long tenure.

Next 3 posts are guys who got concourse quality paint jobs in Mena AK for $11K.
 
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I can give the names of several paint shops where you will not need a contract to be 100% satisfied, but you are not going to like their prices.
 
I feel like a customer asking for a signed contract (even for multi-AMU work we're discussing here) is sort of a signalling that "I'm prepared to sue you if I'm dissatisfied", and a shop owner would probably be right to assume he won't get a chance to make any errors right, and to make sure his insurance is paid up.

I don't think it's incorrect, btw -- there is SO much that goes wrong in aviation from miscommunication/mismatched expectations. I just wish there was a palatable way to bring it up with aviation vendors. Like some sort of AOPA-standardized "tick three boxes and sign" basic form everyone could use and that was pre-understood by both sides to be fair.
 
A contract is usually worth the paper it's printed one; to go beyond that is a headache. When we had our Skyhawk painted, we picked out a paint scheme, and then the shop [with an excellent reputation] proceeded to paint it in a different scheme. Really. I wanted to clobber them, but my partner, who was an attorney, said that the end result would not be worth the trouble. It was an OK paint scheme, and an excellent job, but still ... (I believe we got a small discount for keeping it as it was; they had no explanation as to what happened.)
 
I know this will horrify most of you but re-painting an airplane is not that difficult. I stripped and repainted my C-210 back in 1981 and I am not a pro but I do have my own hangar. My cost then was about a thousand or so including stripper and took maybe 2 or 3 weeks. Using today's low pressure paint guns it would take less paint so maybe it would cost $3000 or so in materials. A good automotive painter might do the final painting locally if you do not want to learn. I used Imron which is easy to spray, very durable. The pix is recent.83y side.jpg and dries fast so correcting goofs is quick and easy.
 
schmookeeg said:
I just wish there was a palatable way to bring it up with aviation vendors.
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FWIW: Just ask them. For my ad hoc work I used a generic work request form to list the intended work and any other applicable details along with a signature. Did I use it for every single job, no. For the owners I assisted, we had a one page Service Agreement. These docs weren't executed so much for a legal reason than just to keep everything up front. However, they could serve for that purpose if needed. Most shops/repair stations I dealt with had their own existing docs/paperwork that served the same purpose. And the several times there were issues that original work order provided the necessary means to mitigate the problem.
 
I keep wondering why such a big deal is made of painting. At one time A&Ps painted regularly in their shops since they did fabric work as a matter of course which certainly can require a lot of painting. Now owners will take their planes half way across the country for painting. If you have the plane painted locally it's far easier to settle any dispute and you avoid a lot of travelling. Do you take you car 1000 miles to have it painted? And auto painting can be a lot more tricky since metal airplanes have so many laps and rivets minor goofs are less detectable. So why not use local auto painter along with your mechanic?
 
Snowmass said:
I keep wondering why such a big deal is made of painting. At one time A&Ps painted regularly in their shops since they did fabric work as a matter of course which certainly can require a lot of painting. Now owners will take their planes half way across the country for painting. If you have the plane painted locally it's far easier to settle any dispute and you avoid a lot of travelling. Do you take you car 1000 miles to have it painted? And auto painting can be a lot more tricky since metal airplanes have so many laps and rivets minor goofs are less detectable. So why not use local auto painter along with your mechanic?
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not sure you are suggesting having an A&P or a body shop do the painting? I can tell you most A&P mechanics have no desire to paint an airplane. Sure body shops can do it but then you have to deal with the logistics of taking the plane apart, transporting it to a shop, and getting it back and back together without damaging the paint. The body shop also needs to know what they are doing so they don’t sand any rivet heads down. In summary, there aren’t many paint shops around, even fewer that do a good job.
 
Grum.Man said:
not sure you are suggesting having an A&P or a body shop do the painting? I can tell you most A&P mechanics have no desire to paint an airplane. Sure body shops can do it but then you have to deal with the logistics of taking the plane apart, transporting it to a shop, and getting it back and back together without damaging the paint. The body shop also needs to know what they are doing so they don’t sand any rivet heads down. In summary, there aren’t many paint shops around, even fewer that do a good job.
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If a mechanic has a hangar the painting could be done right there. The mechanic removes the control surfaces. You strip. The auto painter comes to the hangar and paints. A special paint booth is not needed. I painted my C-210 without one and I have seen many planes painted in regular hangars. A simple hood and airline provides safe breathing air (costs start at few hundred dollars).

Remember, I an amateur, actually stripped and painted my plane by myself in 1981 and the paint is still in good so I do know what I am talking about. However, if somebody does not want to do something the excuses are endless.

If specialty shops charge $15K to paint and I can do it in 3 weeks for $3k and that $12k saving is like tax free income. Now you figure $4000/week tax free which in my tax bracket (Fed + state + FICA) exceeds annualized $400,000 taxable. Good cowboy wages. You plug in your own numbers.

But, as I said, almost nobody reading this would even consider trying. It's the city slicker syndrome. We country hicks are consummate DIYers. We have to be.
 
Snowmass said:
If a mechanic has a hangar the painting could be done right there. The mechanic removes the control surfaces. You strip. The auto painter comes to the hangar and paints. A special paint booth is not needed. I painted my C-210 without one and I have seen many planes painted in regular hangars. A simple hood and airline provides safe breathing air (costs start at few hundred dollars).

Remember, I an amateur, actually stripped and painted my plane by myself in 1981 and the paint is still in good so I do know what I am talking about. However, if somebody does not want to do something the excuses are endless.

If specialty shops charge $15K to paint and I can do it in 3 weeks for $3k and that $12k saving is like tax free income. Now you figure $4000/week tax free which in my tax bracket (Fed + state + FICA) exceeds annualized $400,000 taxable. Good cowboy wages. You plug in your own numbers.

But, as I said, almost nobody reading this would even consider trying. It's the city slicker syndrome. We country hicks are consummate DIYers. We have to be.
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Never said it can’t be done the issue is most don’t have the facilities to do so. For starters my hangar doesn’t have enough power to run sufficient lights and an air compressor to do a good job. That is even if the airport allowed it which most don’t. I also don’t know many mechanics that would want their hangar used as a paint booth either. But yes, if you have the resources and commitment you can do it your self and save a lot of money.
 
Snowmass said:
If a mechanic has a hangar the painting could be done right there. The mechanic removes the control surfaces. You strip. The auto painter comes to the hangar and paints. A special paint booth is not needed. I painted my C-210 without one and I have seen many planes painted in regular hangars. A simple hood and airline provides safe breathing air (costs start at few hundred dollars).

Remember, I an amateur, actually stripped and painted my plane by myself in 1981 and the paint is still in good so I do know what I am talking about. However, if somebody does not want to do something the excuses are endless.

If specialty shops charge $15K to paint and I can do it in 3 weeks for $3k and that $12k saving is like tax free income. Now you figure $4000/week tax free which in my tax bracket (Fed + state + FICA) exceeds annualized $400,000 taxable. Good cowboy wages. You plug in your own numbers.

But, as I said, almost nobody reading this would even consider trying. It's the city slicker syndrome. We country hicks are consummate DIYers. We have to be.
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There is a long list of challenges with DIY at the airport.

- Lots of hangar owners prohibit it.
- Lots of airports prohibit it.
- Your neighbors will hate you because of the overspray. Also, cleaning overspray off of your neighbor's aircraft and cars can get expensive.
- Strippers and the waste from that process are nasty. Airports don't want that stuff in their dumpster.
- Isocynates? Do you really want to use those in a non-controlled environment where most anyone can walk just outside your hangar door where you're spraying?
 
Snowmass said:
A special paint booth is not needed.
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Not quite. Don't know where you live, but in the various states I've worked anybody that applies paint to a vehicle or airplane commercially, i.e., for hire, is required by the state DEQ to have a paint booth and permit. And not to mention OHSA rules where applicable. I've worked on over a dozen aircraft repaints and never did one in my shop due to the permitting BS and the airport prohibited painting services. Throw in the stripper/paint waste costs and it's cheaper to fly the aircraft to a shop. Private individuals usually are exempt to the rules unless they regularly exceed a certain amount of VOC release.
Snowmass said:
almost nobody reading this would even consider trying.
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Not in my experience. Most would but are prevented by location or space or local rules. Plus very few one-man shop have the space to support such a project. With all the repaints I did, the owner either had a private hangar or several T-hangars we could store the parts while waiting on the stripping/painting process. So it's not really an urban syndrome but the game you have to play. Comparing your experience almost 40 years ago to today is almost a moot point whether you're a city-slicker or country hick.
 
I would repaint my plane tomorrow if needed. No excuses. In the past year I have painted two old cars in my hangar. I live in high altitude Arizona which is not yet a people republic and painting is not that difficult.Go to an auto parts store and there are lots of how to books on painting.We po' folk do it all the time. Move to a free state and enjoy the freedom. And painting my own plane is not commercial.
 
Bell206 said:
Comparing your experience almost 40 years ago to today is almost a moot point whether you're a city-slicker or country hick.
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Agreed. When I started leasing a hangar 25 years ago, there was no lease agreement. Today, I have to sign a 15 page document that prohibits a ton of stuff to lease the same hangar. Our airport authority has gone from a core group of pilots who believed in common sense to a group of airline pilots and the like who see liability behind every blade of grass and have brought lawyers in who have taken over the process and are writing themselves perpetual income streams by creating over-reaching lease agreements.
 
Snowmass said:
And painting my own plane is not commercial.
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Exactly. Which has zero to do with the OP's request.
Snowmass said:
Move to a free state and enjoy the freedom.
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FYI: as I stated, all the rest of the free states allow the same freedoms to paint your own private vehicles and aircraft. So what's your point, again?
 
Repainting a plane is nothing like a car. The amount of trouble that can befall a job is endless. Most DIY and cheap paint jobs look nice for 2-3 years. I encourage anyone contemplating painting to visit a top tier shop and watch what’s required and their techniques.

High end shops mask every seam on the plane to ensure no stripper leaches into the panel joins. Ever see paint flaking off around the edges of fuselage panels? Frequently small dried amounts of stripper leaching back out eating the paint.

Materials cost alone is $5K. Stripper, neutralizer, Alodine, zinc chromate, paint
 
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I predicted all you naysayers because am both very smart and talented. I know exactly what it costs because I have painted several planes Just look at the pix at post #14 and this is a recent pix of a 1981 painting. I followed all the steps that Imron required and the paint is doing quite well after 38 years. How come an amateur like me was able to do such an extremely difficult job? Maybe because it's not all that difficult. OK, it's getting boring because y'all are so unoriginal. The excuses, excuses.
 
I painted my own airplane, about 4 years ago. Full strip, conversion coat, epoxy prime, 3 colors, and pearl. Took about a month hard labor, 10 hour days, 7 days a week. And I've been doing it for a living for ~25 years so I already had all the tools and equipment for the job. Cost about $4k for paint and material (consumables)
DSCN0781.JPG 38 (Copy).JPG
 
As to an "ironclad" contract, The only thing close to that would be a work order/cost estimate. The work order outlines what is to be done, with labor/parts, material, itemized, and totaled. There are certian variables involved in the cost estimate, such as the cost of white vs red, difference in cost between brands, etc. Paint pricing is about like gas pricing, except paint price never goes down, and will change without warning. That pint of paint that you bought for $100 yesterday, may cost $150 today. So it's simply a "best guess" on that, but with experience, I can get close enough that I can eat the difference, and still come out in the black, most times.
 
Snowmass said:
I predicted all you naysayers because am both very smart and talented. How come an amateur like me was able to do such an extremely difficult job? Maybe because it's not all that difficult. OK, it's getting boring because y'all are so unoriginal. The excuses, excuses.
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Ha. Typical wannabe response as in your other posts. As usual, you fail to realize it has zero to do with your masterful technical skill, greatness, talent, perfection, or other witty adjectives. Rather it boils down to only one thing in aircraft maintenance: those who can sign-off their opinion in the logbook and those who can't. Accountability is everything. Perhaps the various E/AB forums would offer better hunting grounds for your peerless aviation prowess, inexplicable escapades, and lack of legal ability. Or better, maybe POA can open a new category for Expert Wannabes so you and your compadres can expound your mastery to each other, while leaving the boring, bland, regulatory topics to us mere mortals. Enjoy your T-day.;)
 
Another advantage of painting locally is that the plane can still be flown while during most tedious part which is stripping. I did this myself but, if I painted again, I would probably hire some high school age kids, get them boots, gloves and a face mask and have them do the most of stripping which is vary simple but time consuming. I would do the final stripping around the windows myself since getting stripper on Plexiglas would not be good but 90% of the paint is away from the windows. My old paint was still good but I did not just scuff and paint over since it was red and black which is very hard to hide with white. Also, since the stripped plane can still be flown you can take as much time as you want doing the stripping. And no ironclad contract needed if if DIY.

I am so glad I live where I do in Libertarian country.
 
Oh, jealous Bell, I forgot to mention I am also extremely handsome. It is comments like yours that make posting fun. You do understand that, under the supervision on an A&P, I may do anything permitted by the FARs, don't you?
 
Snowmass said:
Oh, jealous Bell,
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Jealous of what? I have an A&P.
Snowmass said:
You do understand that, under the supervision on an A&P, I may do anything permitted by the FARs, don't you?
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Well, considering at one time I assisted over a dozen owners and signed all their work off, I think I do understand that topic quite well. The only difference being these owners didn't feel the need to pontificate their brilliance to others.:)
 
bluerooster said:
I've been doing it for a living for ~25 years so
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Off topic a bit, but have you started using any of the water-borne paints vs solvent-based? I was struggling to apply a Stewart fabric system top-coat, which is all water-borne, and went to a local shop for tips where he said newer cars are being sprayed with water-borne and he had just started using it. Definite difference in how you spray the two.
 
This is kind of funny. My hanger neighbor is the airport manager (class D). He just finished an RV-8. He is having a hard time with spending the money for a professional job. He desperately wants to do The job himself but as the airport manager he has to follow the rules as he makes everyone else. So bare aluminum the plane stays. He has been talking about appliqué.
 
Morgan3820 said:
This is kind of funny. My hanger neighbor is the airport manager (class D). He just finished an RV-8. He is having a hard time with spending the money for a professional job. He desperately wants to do The job himself but as the airport manager he has to follow the rules as he makes everyone else. So bare aluminum the plane stays. He has been talking about appliqué.
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I painted my RV-6 in my garage at home. In pieces. Once an airplane is assembled, it is really, really tough to pull it all the way apart to take it home and paint it. One option for your friend is to find a friendly private airport and work out something there (big tent, ???).

Another option is to find an auto paint shop, disassemble the airplane, and take it there to be painted in pieces.
 
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