IR training is exhausting!
- Thread starter Jim K
- Start date
Larry in TN
En-Route
You're not the first instrument student who I've seen with that misunderstanding.
Just think of it as the direction being from the fix, not from the holding course.
These bright sunny days are making it way harder. I have the same problem where maintaining +/-100' takes up like 50% of my mental power.
Had a chuckle though.... when they gave us that arc, my instructor took the controls for a minute so I could catch up, and I got to tell him "watch your altitude" for a change.
Larry in TN
En-Route
Jim & Mike,
I wanted to expand on my suggestion for using the simulator apps/sites I listed above.
I used these resources extensively when I was flight instructing. I even used the nav simulator site to teach my private students VOR navigation. No point in them paying an extra $100+/hr for the airplane to learn those concepts. The real benefit, though, was with instrument students.
I remember one instrument student with whom I scheduled a ground school session to introduce DME arcs. We used the luizmonteiro.com site to introduce and practice DME arcs until he had the procedures down. When we next flew, I gave him a series of DMC arc clearances which he flew perfectly. We did the same thing when it came time for holds, approaches, etc. The result was that he was rarely in the airplane struggling to figure out a procedure. Not only did he learn each task better, due to the elimination of distractions, discomforts, and inefficiencies, he saved money by not paying for an airplane while learning the concepts and procedures. That student now flies a corporate jet for a nationally known talk radio personality.
I think a lot of today's pilots think they don't have to know how to do some of these procedures, once the checkride is over, because their GPS will do it all for them. You'll see occasional threads here from instrument pilots who were given a clearance that they couldn't figure out how to fly because they rarely, if ever, did anything other that "Direct" on their GPS.
When I was doing my B767 type rating I was paired with a sim partner who, like me, had never flown a transport jet with an integrated FMS (we had both come from flying DC9 and DC8). He wasn't a natural computer guy so struggled at times with the FMS. One day in the sim, he was flying and was given random (uncharted) holding instructions to test his ability to program the uncharted hold in the FMS. He transferred aircraft control to me while he "built the hold" in the box. He struggled and we reached the holding fix before he had it programmed. I selected HDG mode on the autopilot, used the method I described above to calculate the correct entry, then flew the entry using the heading bug. When he eventually finished building the hold in the FMS we were able to transition back to LNAV and let the A/P fly it on its own. If I didn't know how to calculate the hold entry, it would have gotten very interesting... I've used the same procedure a time or two on actual flights, mostly in the 737, when ATC gives us holds with little warning (i.e. approach suddenly shuts down arrivals due to weather--yes, I'm talking about you, Newark!).
I wanted to expand on my suggestion for using the simulator apps/sites I listed above.
I used these resources extensively when I was flight instructing. I even used the nav simulator site to teach my private students VOR navigation. No point in them paying an extra $100+/hr for the airplane to learn those concepts. The real benefit, though, was with instrument students.
I remember one instrument student with whom I scheduled a ground school session to introduce DME arcs. We used the luizmonteiro.com site to introduce and practice DME arcs until he had the procedures down. When we next flew, I gave him a series of DMC arc clearances which he flew perfectly. We did the same thing when it came time for holds, approaches, etc. The result was that he was rarely in the airplane struggling to figure out a procedure. Not only did he learn each task better, due to the elimination of distractions, discomforts, and inefficiencies, he saved money by not paying for an airplane while learning the concepts and procedures. That student now flies a corporate jet for a nationally known talk radio personality.
I think a lot of today's pilots think they don't have to know how to do some of these procedures, once the checkride is over, because their GPS will do it all for them. You'll see occasional threads here from instrument pilots who were given a clearance that they couldn't figure out how to fly because they rarely, if ever, did anything other that "Direct" on their GPS.
When I was doing my B767 type rating I was paired with a sim partner who, like me, had never flown a transport jet with an integrated FMS (we had both come from flying DC9 and DC8). He wasn't a natural computer guy so struggled at times with the FMS. One day in the sim, he was flying and was given random (uncharted) holding instructions to test his ability to program the uncharted hold in the FMS. He transferred aircraft control to me while he "built the hold" in the box. He struggled and we reached the holding fix before he had it programmed. I selected HDG mode on the autopilot, used the method I described above to calculate the correct entry, then flew the entry using the heading bug. When he eventually finished building the hold in the FMS we were able to transition back to LNAV and let the A/P fly it on its own. If I didn't know how to calculate the hold entry, it would have gotten very interesting... I've used the same procedure a time or two on actual flights, mostly in the 737, when ATC gives us holds with little warning (i.e. approach suddenly shuts down arrivals due to weather--yes, I'm talking about you, Newark!).
dtuuri
Final Approach
I wasn't clear either, I should have said, "From a north heading (360°) arrival at CRL you turn left for a parallel entry."
Larry in TN
En-Route
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say.
With a clearance of, "Hold southwest of CRL on the 204 radial ...", you arrive at CRL flying a heading of 360. Are you saying that you would do a parallel entry?
Peter Anderson
Pre-takeoff checklist
If you use ForeFlight just draw a pic of there instructions. This will help you visualize your entry better.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
eman1200
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2013
- Messages
- 18,836
- Location
- Oakland, CA
- Display Name
Display name:
Bro do you even lift
If you use ForeFlight just draw a pic of there instructions. This will help you visualize your entry better.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
???????????
dtuuri
Final Approach
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 5,852
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
Wouldn't it be a direct entry?
Larry in TN
En-Route
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you use ForeFlight just draw a pic of there instructions. This will help you visualize your entry better.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
You drew it wrong, but this is perfect, when I was doing my instrument training FF didn't have this feature, very powerful.
smv
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2019
- Messages
- 1,661
- Display Name
Display name:
smv
If you use ForeFlight just draw a pic of there instructions. This will help you visualize your entry better.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Try this...
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 5,852
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
"It's just the uncharted ones, like hold south west on the 204 CAR VOR. I’m heading north to the VOR"
Peter Anderson
Pre-takeoff checklist
This is why I don’t have my ifr ticket yet!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Larry in TN
En-Route
That's ok. I got a hold once at around 3am. For the life of me, I couldn't remember which turns were standard! LOL
Your small error demonstrates a potential threat from relying on drawing out the hold to determine your entry. If you draw it wrong, you'll fly it wrong. The technique I described above, using just the heading indicator and outbound course, is the closest to a foolproof method that I've found. Practice using it on the nav simulators I mentioned earlier and, I think, your confidence level will increase rather quickly.
airheadpenguin
Pre-takeoff checklist
When I was an instrument student I really struggled to stay on course, and altitude and then do all of the button pushing and knob turning. This was in a plane without a fancy GPS or AP so all manual. I found that once I learned to trim the airplane and exert minimal control on the yoke everything got a lot better because I could divert my attention to tuning radios, or reading charts without the plane wandering away.
That's why I view the single most important skill in the instrument rating is learning to use the trim wheel. Once you can MAKE the plane do what you want, you don't have to be as vigilant in your scan because its not constantly trying to wander away on you.
It even gives you time to ask for clarifications and to look things up. My examiner didn't expect me to remember or to do everything perfectly, he expected me to adapt when things were imperfect and to correct the condition.
That's why I view the single most important skill in the instrument rating is learning to use the trim wheel. Once you can MAKE the plane do what you want, you don't have to be as vigilant in your scan because its not constantly trying to wander away on you.
It even gives you time to ask for clarifications and to look things up. My examiner didn't expect me to remember or to do everything perfectly, he expected me to adapt when things were imperfect and to correct the condition.
MacFlier
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2018
- Messages
- 468
- Display Name
Display name:
MacFlier
This and also using AP. I find that using the AP really helps me focus on programming the box, briefing the approach and staying ahead of the plane.
The plane I plan to use on my checkride has AP and I intend to use it unless otherwise noted by the DPE.
airheadpenguin
Pre-takeoff checklist
I didn't have an AP and I think it really drilled into me that its all about trim. The AP just helps set the trim and keep it there
Larry in TN
En-Route
I'd expand that to saying the most important skill in instrument training is attitude-instrument flying. Proper use of trim is one part of that.
In my opinion, there is a tendency, with many CFIIs, to jump into flying approaches far too soon. Teaching, and practicing, attitude-instrument flying can get boring rather quickly for the CFII but it is essential for the student if they are to be able to maintain precise aircraft control while doing all the other tasks required in instrument flying including programming the box(es).
It's like the CFI who starts doing pattern work on a new student's second flight. They can't fly straight-and-level, turns, climbs, and descents accurately yet so how are they supposed to fly a traffic pattern? It is counterproductive.
A few extra lessons on attitude-instrument flying, pitch/power settings, the old Pattern A & B, etc. will pay off later in training and when flying IFR once the rating is obtained.
Yep.
+1 on the Blockalls. I used them for my instrument training (just passed the checkride earlier this week), and I loved them. Kept me from seeing literally anything outside the cockpit, which is more than I can say for the other view-limiting devices I’ve tried.
To OP’s point, I totally agree with how tiring instrument training can be. Especially once it started to get hot out, I would just climb out of the plane at the end of the day drenched in sweat and feeling like I was just beat about the head and neck with a rubber hammer. On the positive side, I slept like a baby every night.
The rating is super cool and I’m really glad to have it. Ironically enough, though, after all that hood time, now all I want to do is fly around and look out the window. Definitely some VFR fun flying is in order to just go out and enjoy what got me into this game in the first place.
To OP’s point, I totally agree with how tiring instrument training can be. Especially once it started to get hot out, I would just climb out of the plane at the end of the day drenched in sweat and feeling like I was just beat about the head and neck with a rubber hammer. On the positive side, I slept like a baby every night.
The rating is super cool and I’m really glad to have it. Ironically enough, though, after all that hood time, now all I want to do is fly around and look out the window. Definitely some VFR fun flying is in order to just go out and enjoy what got me into this game in the first place.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
The fatigue of it always seems to be different than I expect. I have flown some 1.5 hour sessions that absolutely rung me out to a point that there was nothing left. Then last Sunday I did my cross country which was four solid hours in VERY bumpy actual IMC. Although I was tired, I was not exhausted. Maybe my frame of mind is just different at times.
Hang 4
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2017
- Messages
- 2,329
- Display Name
Display name:
Hang 4
A lot less going on XC. A normal lesson is multiple approaches one after another. That's what got me worn out. My XC was a rest day.
Yeah... it's the back to back approaches and always being behind the airplane or on the verge of it. We did a 3 hr xc last week, and it was actually fun. Even got some experience punching through some CB and then dodging TS later in the afternoon.
It's getting better. Im at 24 hours; holds & arcs are coming easily, and I haven't fallen behind in a while. Friday we did 3 back to back and while they weren't perfect, they were well within ACS standards, and I felt like a had a couple more in me when we finished. Even got a gps "failure", which meant I lost dme and had to go to cross radials, and it was no sweat. Hopefully should be ready when I hit 40 hrs.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Yes, holds and arcs drained me big time. Sure am glad to have them behind me.