iPad in Instrument Training

RileyMitchum

RileyMitchum

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RileyMitchum
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I have searched the forums and have not found an answer to this specific question so forgive me if this horse has already been beaten. Is it good to have an iPad throughout your entire instrument training, or to wait to use it until after you get the rating? I know many examiners will "fail" the device so would it be better to just not use it on the checkride? Again, sorry if this has been discussed.
 
I used it the whole time. He didn't fail my device. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have paper charts for check ride as a backup. If you can get a ram mount, that would be a big help.
 
RileyMitchum said:
Did it "fail" on the check? Did it make it harder to work with paper and to do calculations by hand etc. ?
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You beat my edit. Lol. I believe they are legal substitutes for paper charts, so no failing the iPad. You still need a clipboard to write things down.
 
RileyMitchum said:
I have searched the forums and have not found an answer to this specific question so forgive me if this horse has already been beaten. Is it good to have an iPad throughout your entire instrument training, or to wait to use it until after you get the rating? I know many examiners will "fail" the device so would it be better to just not use it on the checkride? Again, sorry if this has been discussed.
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An ipad w/foreflight is a wonderful thing when IMC and learn to do it without the help & distraction. Print the plates or buy the booklets, write on'em, learn to nav without the crutch. You'll always be able to fall back to basics if you learn that way. If you lean on the ipad then chances are you'll be a little bit dependent.
 
Sorry about that, I'm at work with nothing better to do :goofy:
So (correct me if I'm wrong) because the iPad is a legal sub for charts they cannot fail it? Or if you have backup paper charts they are more likely to? Did you have paper charts on your check?
 
Most of my IR trainees today are using iPads with ForeFlight as their EFB and as an emergency backup nav system (e.g., total electrical failure) as well as for flight planning, briefing, and filing. Examiners have no authority to deny use of such devices on practical tests, although they will want the applicant to show they have a backup plan in case the EFB dies (and that plan need not include paper charts). I do know one examiner who requires that you bring a paper L-chart to the test because he's more comfortable covering some questions on the ground portion with a paper chart, but that's not a big deal. Virtually all the examiners I've seen giving IR practical tests the last two years are familiar with the iPad and ForeFlight, and happy to let you use it as long as you have a backup plan which will be discussed during the oral portion of the test, and I've never seen one "fail" it during the test other than to kill the little blue airplane on the approach charts if you have the ForeFlight Pro version (simulating loss of GPS signal more than anything else).
 
RileyMitchum said:
Sorry about that, I'm at work with nothing better to do :goofy:
So (correct me if I'm wrong) because the iPad is a legal sub for charts they cannot fail it? Or if you have backup paper charts they are more likely to? Did you have paper charts on your check?
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I was not allowed to use anything other than paper but my check ride was PI (pre-ipad).
 
Clark1961 said:
An ipad w/foreflight is a wonderful thing when IMC and learn to do it without the help & distraction. Print the plates or buy the booklets, write on'em, learn to nav without the crutch. You'll always be able to fall back to basics if you learn that way. If you lean on the ipad then chances are you'll be a little bit dependent.
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That was kind of what I was thinking. So would it be wise to, while training do some flights without the iPad for practice but once I get it grab the iPad?
 
I am an android guy so I use an asus TF700 for charts, but if I were on a checkride and my TF700 were to "fail" I would promptly whip out my Samsung galaxy note which runs the exact same chart program on it.
 
RileyMitchum said:
So (correct me if I'm wrong) because the iPad is a legal sub for charts they cannot fail it?
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No more than (simulating) throwing your paper charts out the window during the IR practical test. However, they can and often do simulate loss of GPS signals by making you turn off that feature, and you should expect as part of the ground portion a discussion on how you'll get back on the ground safely if the device fails completely. Use of other devices such as a Garmin 430 with the procedures loaded supplemented by information from ATC is one acceptable answer.
 
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FORANE said:
I am an android guy so I use an asus TF700 for charts, but if I were on a checkride and my TF700 were to "fail" I would promptly whip out my Samsung galaxy note which runs the exact same chart program on it.
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For EFB purposes that's an FAA-acceptable answer. Good idea to have an aircraft-compatible charging device along, too.
 
Just good cockpit management( in my opinion ).use it to show the DPE that you can use it to help with situational awareness and as a back up.
 
I used my iPad during training starting in 12/11, and also on the checkride. I had paper charts along for backup and the DPE knew it, but it sounded as if he had no intention of "failing" the iPad anyway. He had plenty of opportunity to observe how I dealt with an instrument glitch in flight, since a "real" one (of my own making) happened during the ride.
 
Not an IFR checkride, but I trained on a G1000 system for my PP and my instructor and I were worried how much the DPE would let me use all of the bells and whistles so I prepared to fly like I was in a steam gauges plane. The DPE actually want to see how I handled using "all available resources" that were available to me in the cockpit and that the technology didn't become a heads down distraction.

If you use the Ipad to enhance situational awareness and as your EFB for charts and plates, then that can only help. If you are heads down flying a video game on the Ipad...then you might have a problem!
 
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My instrument student passed his ride a week ago with his Nexus 7 providing the charts. He did have paper as a backup but didn't need to use them. Nothing was failed during the exam. I think most examiners realize this is the the way we will all be flying in the future and are satisfied that the student knows how to use it and knows what he'll do if it hiccups.
 
if its at your disposal, use it. just know that you need to navigate without your ipad also in case it fails
 
I trained with the G1000, but without the charts option. My instructor highly recommended getting that or at least an i-pad. In the mean time, we worked with printed charts. I didn't want to spend the unlock cost and higher subscription costs, so I eventually got an i-pad with jepp charts, and tried to use it in training. It didn't work out too well and I found it much easier to just use the paper. The reason was because I did not have a good mounting location figured out. It didn't work well in my lap, not on the yoke, not sitting somewhere else loose. After passing the check ride, I finally found a good way to mount it without blocking any G1000 views. Backup paper is still good.
 
Food for thought,

A second iPad would be a whole lot more economical backup plan than paying for paper charts...unless, of course, your backup plan is only for the checkride.
 
Captain said:
Food for thought,

A second iPad would be a whole lot more economical backup plan than paying for paper charts...unless, of course, your backup plan is only for the checkride.
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...and FYI, if you are running Foreflight on the Ipad and also have an Iphone, you can load Foreflight on multiple devices under one subscription and use the Iphone as a backup.
 
You can load on two iPads and one phone. I recently went through figuring that out on their website to set up the mini for future testing.
 
Captain said:
Food for thought,

A second iPad would be a whole lot more economical backup plan than paying for paper charts...unless, of course, your backup plan is only for the checkride.
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WingXPro7 lets you install on several devices.

For me, traveling alone, my iPhone is my chart backup to my iPad. Small display, but usable in an emergency.

When traveling with Karen, we've got her iPad and both of our phones to fall back on.

That said, a year ago last October a long cross country to Page, AZ, was my first without paper charts as backup - sectionals in my case. I was nervous about it, but got over it.

As an aside, buying charts for the trip would have been about $100 - so this single trip essentially paid for a year of WingXPro7!
 
I am aware ForeFlight can be installed one multiple devices. I'm also aware of people claiming to bring paper charts as a backup to their checkride on this very thread.

As an examiner I'd view that as either doing something for the checkride the applicant does not intend to do for every flight, or showing poor ADM because of the bad economics involved with paper chart backup.
 
Shawn said:
Not an IFR checkride, but I trained on a G1000 system for my PP and my instructor and I were worried how much the DPE would let me use all of the bells and whistles so I prepared to fly like I was in a steam gauges plane. The DPE actually want to see how I handled using "all available resources" that were available to me in the cockpit and that the technology didn't become a heads down distraction.
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With a G1000 or the like, on an IR ride, the DPE is required to test you on your ability to use "all the bells and whistles" as well as operating if one of them fails. That will probably mean one approach flown simulating loss of the satellites and one approach flown after "loss of primary flight instrument(s)", e.g., loss of the AHRS or PFD. So, with one of those, you'd better learn how to do it both with and without all those cool capabilities operational.

If you use the Ipad to enhance situational awareness and as your EFB for charts and plates, then that can only help. If you are heads down flying a video game on the Ipad...then you might have a problem!
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Agreed.
 
Captain said:
I am aware ForeFlight can be installed one multiple devices. I'm also aware of people claiming to bring paper charts as a backup to their checkride on this very thread.

As an examiner I'd view that as either doing something for the checkride the applicant does not intend to do for every flight, or showing poor ADM because of the bad economics involved with paper chart backup.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but when I did my IR checkride the only iDevice I owned was the iPad. And I carried paper charts as backup on every IFR flight until I bought my iPhone in August. Since then, with ForeFlight loaded on the phone, I've gone paperless. So no, I fully intended to do (and did) what I did on the checkride in my everyday flying.
 
My iPad Air running ForeFlight is my primary resource, with a Nexus 7 running Garmin Pilot as a always-current backup/supplemental device, backed up up by Garmin Pilot on my Android phone if those should fail. Three different hardware devices running two different OSes and two different apps should provide sufficient redundancy.
 
I had my first real tablet failure yesterday. Garmin pilot on a nexus 7. I've been using it for almost a year, no problem. Had the airport diagram up for the departure airport and had just received taxi instructions. Went to look at the diagram and the tablet "system gui" crashed. Tablet was still up, but nothing would respond. Had to reboot to fix. That was an annoying couple of minutes, and at (sort of) a bad time.

I'm not instrument rated yet, but aren't there times when, even if you have a back up, unless it's on, your program fired up and displaying the thing you need, that sort of problem would be unpleasant?

(Not arguing against tablets... not at all. But I have the same tablet / phone redundancy, and it still didn't help much here since the phone wasn't on "hot standby".)
 
Mistake Not... said:
I had my first real tablet failure yesterday. Garmin pilot on a nexus 7. I've been using it for almost a year, no problem. Had the airport diagram up for the departure airport and had just received taxi instructions. Went to look at the diagram and the tablet "system gui" crashed. Tablet was still up, but nothing would respond. Had to reboot to fix. That was an annoying couple of minutes, and at (sort of) a bad time.

I'm not instrument rated yet, but aren't there times when, even if you have a back up, unless it's on, your program fired up and displaying the thing you need, that sort of problem would be unpleasant?

(Not arguing against tablets... not at all. But I have the same tablet / phone redundancy, and it still didn't help much here since the phone wasn't on "hot standby".)
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this is why its good to have paper charts (not saying you didnt). paper never fails and i dont have to wait for it to reload!
 
Mistake Not... said:
I'm not instrument rated yet, but aren't there times when, even if you have a back up, unless it's on, your program fired up and displaying the thing you need, that sort of problem would be unpleasant?
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Lots of things can be unpleasant in instrument flying, including vacuum pump failures, loss of satellite signals, and losing your chart out the door that just popped open, and I've seen all three in instrument conditions. I've also had things spilled on charts rendering them pretty much unusable, which (along with doors and windows) is why even paper needs a backup. That's why I always memorize the MDA/DA, MAP identification, and initial missed approach segment before I reach the FAF.

So, there's nothing wrong with a "hot running spare," but you should not be in a position where either your iPad going blank or dropping your paper chart on the floor will result in a major problem before you can get to the backup.
 
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Shawn said:
...and FYI, if you are running Foreflight on the Ipad and also have an Iphone, you can load Foreflight on multiple devices under one subscription and use the Iphone as a backup.
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How do you load it on an IPhone if it's on your IPad?
 
Texastaildragger said:
How do you load it on an IPhone if it's on your IPad?
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The easiest way is to have ios set up to mirror installations on the pad and phone prior to installing on the pad. Next easiest way is to go to the app store on the phone and tell it to install FF.

It's the license terms that allow the installation to be legal. There is no technical barrier to installation on both devices.
 
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