Into the FRZ...

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by poadeleted20, Apr 18, 2005.

  1. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And what is the value?
     
  2. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    - cheap fuel at VKX
    - getting downtown on the metro from CGS instead of cab/rental car
    - cheap hangars at W32
    - cheaper cab rides to downtown from any of the 3
     
  3. Tommy3

    Tommy3 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It is not an arduous process. You are asking to pilot a flying missile 10 miles from the major national security sites of the United States. The least you can do is endure a straightforward, four-hour process to get vetted and trained on how to participate in a system designed to keep our nation safer. If you find it that irritating, think about the many soldiers/Marines/etc. who are on their fourth, fifth, sixth+ deployments overseas, fighting to keep you safe. This selfish, right-wing self-entitled nonsense totally confounds me.

    And don't tell me the system is broken, or the FRZ is stupid, or that you have some brilliant plan to manage the nation's airspace in a way that our many experienced professionals are too stupid to grasp and is only accessible to your genius. You have no idea what you are talking about. There are people who are educated and experienced in national security and do this for a living. They are doing the best they can, better than you could. Yes, TSA screening is inconvenient. Yes, the FRZ process takes up one of your precious mornings.

    There are kids in Walter Reed missing all their limbs. F*cking deal with it.
     
  4. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Apparently you think it's not security theater.

    Apparently you think no one here has any experience with security or with the related systems in use in the NAS.

    Now excuse me while I go get my irony meter fixed.
     
  5. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    It really doesn't matter for the original purpose of this thread whether it's security theater, or real security, or just a job-creation program, or anything in between. The only thing that matters for our purposes here is that it is the law, and unless we are prepared to accept the consequences of civil disobedience, like imprisonment, fines, and/or suspension/termination of our license to fly, we must know how to comply, and then do so. If folks want to debate the politics behind it, I ask and suggest they take that discussion to the Spin Zone (or at least another thread), and allow this thread to focus on learning how to operate safely and legally in and around the DC SFRA and FRZ.

    Thanks for your cooperation.
     
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  6. IronCity

    IronCity Filing Flight Plan

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  7. AviatorTB

    AviatorTB Filing Flight Plan

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    I received my FRZ access while I was a student pilot back in 2009. I wanted it cuz my folks live in Alexandria, Va and VKX was closer than all other alternates, save DCA. I guess I was lucky that I chose there as Dave Wartofsky, VKX's owner, seems to have set up the least painful process for running the TSA traps. When the wind is gusty, landing at VKX has more drama than gaining access to it.

    So, rather than fight city hall, call DW up and get the ball moving.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  8. Buggsy2

    Buggsy2 Pre-Flight

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    About the same time the rules make sense and aren't simply security theater?

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
  9. Buggsy2

    Buggsy2 Pre-Flight

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    I haven't been safer because of our foreign military adventures for decades. On the contrary, they are bankrupting and generating bad will towards all Americans.

    And I don't support the troops. By now everybody knows these foreign wars are completely pointless and our volunteer military is just paid mercenaries or adventurers. Deal with it.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
  10. petrolero

    petrolero Pattern Altitude

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    Does filing IFR get you out of the hassle? Tom's ridiculous non sequitur above aside, that process as described in the OP sounds absolutely... well... par for the government course. Sounds not even possible without actually visiting DC which is actually laughable if true.

    I'm not really planning on flying to DC anytime soon so I'm more curious than I am willing to wade through the AOPA docs. Quick answer here would be sufficient.
     
  11. gprellwitz

    gprellwitz Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Realize that this thread is 3 9 years old! But, AFAIK, not much has changed in that time.
     
  12. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Quick answer is no.

    IFR gets you out of the minor hassles with the SFRA.
     
  13. Marauder

    Marauder Cleared for Takeoff

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    You need a security check and a code issued to you.
     
  14. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Isn't it sad? I'll never forget the centennial anniversary of the Wright Brother's first flight, because I couldn't fly over it (can't think of a more fitting tribute) because of security concerns.

    Oh well, gotta obey the rules or they'll just make it that much worse.
     
  15. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    It does as far as the SFRA is concerned, but not the FRZ. So, by filing and operating IFR, you can fly to any of the airports inside the SFRA other than those in the FRZ without further ado. To get into the airports inside the FRZ (the only three GA airports there being Hyde, Potomac, and College Park), you have to go through the FRZ approval process (including the fingerprinting and background check) during which you'll learn the procedure for filing and flying into the FRZ. And note that merely filing IFR isn't sufficient for SFRA operations -- for IFR in the SFRA, you must have your clearance and be squawking your assigned code before entering the SFRA, including getting them before takeoff for departure from inside the SFRA.
    .
    For the FRZ, that's pretty much true, but you can still fly to Freeway or Gaithersburg or Manassas or Dulles in order to go through the FRZ clearance process by following the DC SFRA procedures without any prior vetting. I'll forego comment on the laughability of any of this and just stick with explaining the rules as they are.
     
  16. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    But that is not enough for the FRZ.
     
  17. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    That is true for the FRZ, but not for the SFRA outside the FRZ. Note that the "code" to which Marauder refers is a personal security code to identify you with you file your FRZ flight plan, not a transponder code you can use any time you like to enter the FRZ)
     
  18. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah, and good on you for it. "Hope and change" didn't work out so good on this issue, and I doubt anything else will either.
     
  19. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Thats what I said, right ?
     
  20. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Since the discussion is about the FRZ, what you said was only part of the answer. I would not want anyone to think for a instant that just being on an IFR flight plan covers you for the FRZ the way it does for the DC SFRA. We get too many violations around here to let that detail slide.
     
  21. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He asked whether IFR gets him out of the FRZ requirements and I gave him the correct answer of : No.
     
  22. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude

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    Nevermind. Not worth it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  23. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    You'd have to take the response to another section of the forum anyhow. Can't post that here.
     
  24. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    and now we know what that DEFCon 3 alert was all about.....:D
     
  25. N312RB

    N312RB Filing Flight Plan

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    Is this VFR only or does all IFR traffic have to do it also?
     
  26. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    To access the FRZ airports (VKX, CGS, W32), you need to go through the vetting process and obtain a PIN regardless of whether you arrive VFR or IFR.
     
  27. Chester Clark III

    Chester Clark III Filing Flight Plan

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    I did the paperwork about five years ago in half a day as well. College Park is a great little airport to fly into, just watch out for deer when arriving at night and remember it's a pretty short 2600' runway. I went in there many times from Georgia in a Cherokee, and a few times in a Twin Comanche. Of course it's easier to fly in there if instrument rated and filing an IFR plan.
     
  28. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    Fwiw, the procedure for getting vetted has simplified a bit, with no visit to a FSDO required and fingerprinting done all over the country. Check the vetting procedures on the website of your MD3 airport of choice.

    And honestly, VFR is easier than IFR if you took the SFRA/FRZ course and follow the procedures.
     
  29. Chester Clark III

    Chester Clark III Filing Flight Plan

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    I took the course and followed the procedures. I just found that VFR I got vectored all over the place, often with completely new headings when passed to a new controller. I found arriving in CGS to be easier IFR, and departing to be easier VFR. But I've only been in there 15-20 times so in no way consider myself an authority, just a pilot who has an opinion.
     
  30. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The only vectoring I have received going in and out of VKX VFR are altitude restrictions to keep me from becoming a hood ornament on a US Air A320. On longer flights, I prefer to arrive IFR as there is no slot time. You are there when you get there.
     
  31. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    If you're under the bravo, you're not going to get vectored. In fact, the special controllers working SFRA/FRZ VFR traffic only outside of bravo can't vector you because you're "transponder observed" rather than "radar contact". If you do get a bravo clearance, you will be vectored around traffic, but if you're IFR you have to be separated from other IFR as well, so you'll get detoured regardless.
     
  32. jwyatt

    jwyatt Filing Flight Plan

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    I've been watching this; Hyde seems to indicate on their site that they will do it all remotely, but CGS (which would be my preferred field) still says you have to visit their office in person for the final step. I've meant to call them during the week but didn't get the chance. Anyone have better intel?
     
  33. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You can get the clearance through Hyde or VKX and fly into CGS. Just tell the briefer that you are on the 'Hyde List' or 'Potomac list'.
     
  34. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    It really doesn't matter which airport you do the vetting through. Once you're vetted at one, you're vetted at all three.
     
  35. Chester Clark III

    Chester Clark III Filing Flight Plan

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    Wow. Brad, I'm not sure what your beef is, with three posts now doubting the experience I've had, my having completed the training, or having competence to follow directions. I am not an expert at these things, only a commercially rated pilot that as I've said has flown into CGS a couple dozen times. I also have a friend who works in Potomac TRACON who I've discussed these matters with. I would consider being given a heading to be the same as being vectored. I've ALWAYS been kept bumping along below the Bravo when arriving VFR, and have ALWAYS received headings until reaching Freeway, then cleared direct College Park. I'm not going to argue what the "special controllers" can and cannot do, I'm just stating what I've experienced. You don't have to believe it, or even be respectful to a fellow pilot. I only posted here because I thought that my experience might be helpful for someone. I don't have an agenda on this topic, and I'm sorry if my experience conflicts with what you have experienced or what you wish to have portrayed. This was entirely unintentional. Tailwinds!
     
  36. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    No beef--I'm point out, for the benefit of others reading this thread (it's a sticky!) that there is really no reason to avoid entering the FRZ VFR because they believe they'll get vectored around. For VFR operations inside the FRZ, you're generally required to enter and exit the most direct route. The controller was giving you an instruction, in accordance with 14 CFR 93.343(e)(1), to proceed to CGS via the vicinity of Freeway Airport. That's not an vector, but adherence to a procedure that is regulatorily defined (although use of the word "may" in the reg indicates that it should be expected, but not necessarily what is given by the controller).

    My point about the SFRA controllers is that they are there solely for the purpose of fulfilling the USSS mandated security protocols in the national capital region. They are only working VFR traffic outside of class bravo. They don't vector traffic, but they may point out traffic, and issue advisories.

    For reference, I'm based at Potomac Airfield, and have flown out of all three MD3 airports for the past 10 years, but for personal flight and a couple thousand hours as an airborne traffic pilot and CFI.

    I will agree that if you're approaching CGS from the northwest, hoping to fly the ground track of the RNAV 14 into CGS VFR, it is annoying being told to head over to W00 to approach the airport.

    I have the same issue coming into VKX from the northeast. Sometimes the controllers will permit me to cut through the ADW surface area to approach VKX straight in for runway 24. My chances of getting that short cut are about the same whether I'm IFR or VFR.

    My final point- controllers would much rather deal with an FRZ inbound/outbound aircraft VFR rather than IFR. Don't be concerned about canceling IFR once you're talking with Potomac Tracon...it makes their life a lot easier and will likely make your trip shorter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  37. Chester Clark III

    Chester Clark III Filing Flight Plan

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    I understand better now your sensitivity and motivation. I have no idea how you teach your students, but I'll just say before I leave you with this thread and whatever it is you want people to think that I would never confuse being told to head to Freeway with being given a heading. A heading is "N...., fly heading xxx." I've never once had a controller tell me to make my way on my own to Freeway. I've ALWAYS received specific magnetic headings to fly. I've been arriving from the west or southwest. CGS is on the northern side of the FRZ. I've been given headings by one controller taking me north around the western side, only to have the next controller turn me south and around the eastern side. Always by specific instructions to fly a magnetic heading. Now, if those were only suggestions by controllers not authorized to be giving them, the SFRA/FRZ training needs some serious revising. I'm not going to be the pilot that challenges them.

    I like the folks at CGS. I have told others it's not really a big deal to get security clearance and it's so convenient to fly there. I commented on this thread in a positive and encouraging manner. I am apalled that an individual such as yourself would find it necessary to consistently respond to another pilot's innocent and positive comments by repeatedly attempting to portray my training, opinions, experience, and basic knowledge as lacking. I've enjoyed flying into the DC area, but I have to admit I have less desire to do so after this interaction with a local. You could find better ways to promote aviation to these fine airports.
     
  38. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I found that outside of nice sunny daytime hours, around 2W5 and VKX, I usually get handed to an approach controller. They dont seem to know that we are special flowers who can't receive a vector so they do whatever it takes to make us fit into their picture. Headings, altitude restrictions, traffic advisories. We are talking about a couple of miles here, so I dont worry much about an extra minute or three in the air.
     
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  39. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    Chester- I'm sorry you feel slighted. I can say that BradZ is an excellent CFI as I've had recurrent training with him. He also helped me get reacquainted with VKX procedures. I am a DC-3 vetted pilot, did my primary training at W00 and I've never been vectored except once during a departure when cleared VFR inside the Bravo.
     
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  40. Scott Cruise

    Scott Cruise Filing Flight Plan

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    Pardon me if this is covered elsewhere in this thread, but what are my requirements to go IFR. I know I still have to do the fingerprinting and background checks. Other than that, do you know of any other requirements I must meet?

    Thanks for any info.