Into the FRZ...

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by poadeleted20, Apr 18, 2005.

  1. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Well, I've done it -- flown into the DC FRZ -- deliberately, with intent, and fully aware of the consequences, and nobody minded a bit. Piece'o'cake, I say.


    Yes, it took devoting a day to going to the DC area and being checked, briefed, and fingerprinted, but as government inquisitions go, it was relatively painless. The worst part was spending about 10 minutes on hold when calling Leesburg FSS to file the flight plan into College Park, and again after landing to report that I was on the ground -- but I did learn enough to file my return flight plan at the same time while I had them, and sure enough, six hours later, Potomac Approach was up and ready with my sqauwk code and frequency to depart (no long hold calling them, thank you).


    CGS is awfully quiet, but the folks there remain most friendly and eager to see some traffic return. The line guy even brought the required prop lock (they have loaners for transients) out to the plane. Gotta remember to show up needing more fuel next time -- with no landing fee, that's the only way to recompense them. And the Metro station is still right there, eight minutes walk from the plane, to take you anywhere in the DC area you want to go. 94th Aero Squadron is open for lunch, and the museum is much expanded and improved since last I flew in four years ago. Nice to be back.


    But I did hear a total four "Aircraft operating ...this is the United States Air Force -- you have entered..." calls during both flights. Dagnabit! What will it take to get people to play by the rules?
     
    Don Jones, mikea and SkyHog like this.
  2. Greebo

    Greebo N9017H - C172M (1976)

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    After going through this process, does that mean you have clearance to go into the FRZ pretty much whenever you like, provided the flight plans are all in order?

    Cause it might be worth doing the day in DC to do the same if so.
     
  3. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller En-Route

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    Ron, will they be using the new laser cannon to warn people of impending incursions or just for-real incursions?

    -Skip
     
  4. ggroves

    ggroves Pattern Altitude

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    I heard two on Sunday. We flew over to AIY for the day. I heard bust #1 first hand. The guys comes on frequency with the Baltimore sector controller a few minutes after I checked in. Flying a Skywagon, not real sure where he was. First report he was "7 NE of Potomac..." Potomac what?...river, airport. The controller queried further and then he was "20 NE of Potomac". Controller pushed him to another frequency since it was apparently out of his sector.

    Not two minutes later on guard...."this is the United States Air Force...blah, blah, blah ".

    Apparently, he was busted around Dalghren. I'm guessing Potomac was NE of his position, not the other way around.

    Unless you live under a rock, I can't see how anybody isn't aware of the ADIZ...

    Greg
    182RG

     
  5. Carol

    Carol Line Up and Wait

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    Ron,

    Can you give a link to an online resource which tells how to go about this process?

    Carol
     
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  6. MSmith

    MSmith Line Up and Wait

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    Or, write up your experience (as long as it doesn't violate security somehow)?
     
  7. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    To answer questions in order...

    Yes, although not just anywhere in the FRZ -- I'm cleared only to College Park, and must enter/exit the FRZ at a certain point to go there. To get into Potomac and Hyde (again, specific entry/exit points), I would have to do more paperwork, but once done the fingerprints are good for all three.

    I have no idea. Check AOPA web site and AvWeb for more on that. See http://www.aopa.org/#050414laser for the latest info of which I am aware.

    I got it in an issue of AOPA ePilot but can't find the link again.

    Basically, you start by calling the Airport Manager at the airport into which you wish to fly. They fax you a form to fill out. You take the form with your pilot and medical certificates and photo ID to the FSDO covering that airport (Baltimore for College Park or Washington for Hyde and Potomac) where they verify your identity (no logbooks or anything -- just a certificate check). Now off to the airport where you will fly, where they copy your documents and sign the form in the first block. Next stop is National Airport for electronic fingerprinting (just bring money -- $29 will do nicely) and then back to the airport where you will fly to view the video and be issued the booklet on procedures.

    Now you wait -- in my case from Tuesday afternoon to Friday morning, at which time I was contacted and given the final info after my identity was confirmed.

    And that's it.

    Ron
     
  8. AdamZ

    AdamZ Administrator Management Council Member

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    Ron: What you went through seems somewhat convoluted but not to painful for someone who lives in the Northern Virginia/Maryland DC area. But to attract business from elsewhere in the country they need to seriously revamp that procedure. Anyone holding a valid pilots certificate should be able to get this done at their local FSDO/ Armed services base/ FBI office or whatever. Gov't agencies outside the DC area are just as capable vetting you for this procedure as those in DC. Now there is something AOPA can do to help these poor folks at the DC3.
     
  9. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If it weren't next to impossible to do from Texas, I'd probably do it. Why? I have family in the area, and going to Potomac would cut about 45 minutes off the ground commute.

    Sadly, when I AM in the area, there is not enough time to go through the brain damage and red tape to accomplish this. Further, there is no reason that a cleared pilot shouldn't be authorized for all three.

    I MIGHT, and I repeat MIGHT, actually do this for KDCA. And I'd probably do it if it covered all three plus DCA.

    Methinks that the folks in the ivory tower still want to ban GA.
     
  10. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    It took me five hours start to finish from walking in at the first stop (FSDO) to walking out at the last (CGS video briefing), including an hour lost when I just missed the fingerprinters' closing for lunch (which time I put to use by eating lunch myself) and inadvertently taking the long way from the FSDO to CGS.
     
  11. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And that's my point, Ron. Shouldn't take that long. If I want to use Potomac and CGS, you have to add another couple of hours for travel time, paperwork, and the briefing. By the time you're done, you've pretty well shot the day. I don't think you can do it on a weekend.

    If DCA ever becomes available, add another couple of hours, plus.

    When my normal visits "close-in" to DC are either short (24 hours or less) or on weekends, it becomes a real problem. OTOH, if I could accomplish most of it at my local FSDO here, the burden would be a lot less.

    Just my opinion.
     
  12. grattonja

    grattonja Line Up and Wait

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    Is it limited to one tail number, or just pilot limited? I fly several different rentals, and would want to be covered for all of them. If it covered me as a pilot in basically whatever plane, it would not be a problem but if I had to do something for each plane that I fly... that would be more of a hassle.

    Jim G
     
  13. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    It's pilot-specific -- the pilot can fly any plane, but must be the PIC.
     
  14. mikea

    mikea Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Do you have to identify yourself any way other than on the flight plan?

    I guess they have to way to check the name address, etc. you supply for the flight plan to see if you're approved. That's slightly mind blowing. I always thought that that information was only significant in the event of an overdue flight.
     
  15. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Yes, and if you want to know how, you have to go through the approval process.
     
  16. inav8r

    inav8r Line Up and Wait

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    And if Ron told you he'd have to send 2 men in black suits w/ sunglasses to visit you... :rofl:
     
  17. C-1 PILOT

    C-1 PILOT Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ron, what about passangers? Any need to get approval for passangers prior to flying into the FRZ? Or are they just interested in the A/C and pilot?

    BTW, how have you been? Haven't seen you in some time, flying a new Diamond C-1 now, based at LDJ.

    Regards,
    John T.
    Formerly...

    GA7 N723GA
    AA5B N4540N

    Now
    DA20 N517JT
     
  18. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Ya mean these two?
     
  19. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    You are responsible for your own passengers -- no approval required. The are interested only in who's flying the plane, not even whose plane it is or what plane it is.

    If you hadn't sold your Grummans and stopped showing up at Grumman events, you'd see more of me. ;)
     
  20. C-1 PILOT

    C-1 PILOT Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yeah, but I woun't be having half as much fun as I'm having now....

    Regards,
    John
     
  21. poadeleted1

    poadeleted1 Deleted by request

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    Dagnabit???? Dagnabit???? Hey, aren't you Grandpa Scrimshaw? Or was that Commander Pettibone...the guy in Naval Aviation news????:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Man it has been a long time since I read that....Dagnabit???? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

    KP
     
  22. FlightFollowing

    FlightFollowing Pre-Flight

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    haha nice... Does anyone know If VRF flights are allowed in the DCA ADIZ? I kinda want to fly over my church and take a picture of it for them as a gift. The church is in silver spring md
     
  23. grattonja

    grattonja Line Up and Wait

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    In the ADIZ, file an ADIZ VFR plan, put yourself going from point a to point b that will take you over where you need to go to get the pic. Call FSS and they will gladly explain the procedures. In the FRZ, forget it. Blackhawks and F15s and not a good picture.

    I don't have the TAC chart in front of me, but, running Silver Spring MD through airnav, nets a heliport. It looks awfully close to College Park, which is one of the orpaned "DC3". I am guessing you will either be in or VERY NEAR the Flight Restricted Zone (FRZ). In fact, running mapquest for that heliport against the graphic from AOPA for the FRZ, I am certain you would be in the FRZ. You are inside the DC ring-road which somewhat tracks the FRZ.

    Probably no aerial picture for you. Sorry.

    Jim G
     
  24. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    Ron:

    Glad you got this worked out. It sounds very important to you. Can't see me going through all of this, but don't live nearby like you. At least it's an option.

    Sometimes I'm somewhat upset that I risked my life for this country and still am treated like someone that hasn't proved themselves in any manner-- imagine someone like you must occassionally share that thought-- guess we'll get over it.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  25. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    one perhaps new piece of info... your FRZ clearance process makes it possible for you to operate in and out of any of the DC-3 airports. One trick when filing your flight plan is to tell them what airport you are "associated" with - so they can look you up when you give them your PIN.

    it really is a non-event - and worth the hassle.
     
  26. infotango

    infotango Line Up and Wait

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    Ron, is Lee Schiek still the apt manager at KCGS?
     
  27. Dakota Duce

    Dakota Duce Pre-Flight

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    I just read this little tid-bit in my morning newspaper.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    "INVESTIGATORS SNEAK BOMB COMPONENTS PAST SCREENERS, by: Michelle Mittelstadt.. Knight Ridder Tribune News Service".

    "Congressional investigators were able to sneak homemade bomb components past Federal screeners at ALL 21 airports they targeted in a recent covert exercise to dertime the vulnerability posed by would-be suicide bombers carring easily purchased materials that could be assembled into a bomb once past security."

    "Homeland Security Assistant Secretary Edmund 'Skip' Hawley said, 'This should NOT be alarming', speaking to reporters at a Homeland Security Department briefing."

    "John Gage, President of the American Federation of Government Employees Union stated.. 'It's clear the TSA doesn't take this seriously. The agency seems to be more concerned with presenting the public with the APPEARANCE of security, rather than making sure the appropriate security measures are taken'."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't understand. What is it with these people? I read something like this and think to myself.. "They're worried about GA's and ADIZ's!.. and to think they want to make even more areas ADIZ!"

    O.K. guys (and gals), so I'm new here.. and to the GA life. I bow to those of you who knowingly have years more GA than I, but..

    "Am I missing something here? Am I the only one on this board that's looking at this and shaking their head.. or am I just some poor old smuck that doesn't get it?" There Washington is looking to make more and more GA restrictions, yet 'Skip' Hawley is telling us we shouldn't be alarmed over the lack of security in the commercial sector. So O.K., fire away. I can take it. Just tell me how dumb and stupid I really am.

    Sorry.. I'll turn off my 'ranting' mode now.[​IMG]

    Dakota Duce

    "May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"
     
  28. Maverick

    Maverick Line Up and Wait

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    I was thinking he may have meant two guys who look like Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones with their little flashy thing. :goofy:

    Jeannie
     
  29. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Dunno.
     
  30. Steve

    Steve En-Route

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    I did the entire hoop hopping in half a day (on a Monday, no less), using CGS, BWI FSDO and DCA fingerprinting and I'm not even local. Started at FSDO, drove to CGS, caught the METRO to DCA and back, watched the video (ugh) and turned in all the paperwork. PIN obtained a couple of weeks later. CGS will be my destination when I fly to DC privately. They need the business. It would be great if every US pilot got vetted to fly the FRZ. That would really show how inefficient/ineffective/interminably ludicrous the whole DC FRZ/ADIZprogram is.

     
  31. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    Yes he is.
     
  32. infotango

    infotango Line Up and Wait

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    Good to know, he's a good guy.
    Thanks.
    I'm planning on flying in there as soon as I get the rating and complete all the BS to fly into the FRZ.
     
  33. Larryo

    Larryo Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Dave,

    I hope we never get over it. It's an absolute disgrace and an embarrassment to folks like you.

    We need to keep fighting this to eliminate it. Even though it may never come, we should never give up.

    For me, I've written off Washington. There's nothing I need there and the rules are more than I can stomach.
     
  34. infotango

    infotango Line Up and Wait

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    Talked with Lee recently.
    Apparently KCGS is going to stay an active airport at least for a while. The park service (who has been running it for a while) is committed to keeping the oldest continuously operated airport running. For those that haven't visited, its an awesome airport, not only is it right near the University of Maryland and home to an excellent aviation museum, and within walking distance of the Green Line Metro it also has a great group of people working there.
     
  35. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    For anyone who needs to fly in (in small airplanes) to do business in DC, CGS is a fabulous choice - right near the Metro, not busy, and you get terrific ATC services.

    Next time you fly in on the airlines, make some extra time to get fingerprinted and vetted by the FSDO. You'll really like the time and hassle you save on future trips.
     
  36. gprellwitz

    gprellwitz Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm going to be in DC the week of July 4, and thought I'd get myself cleared into the DC-3. I have no particular plans to fly in, so could use any of the three airports for the paperwork. Being very unfamiliar with the DC area, my question is, which is the easiest airport to use if I'm relying on public transportation, and is it feasible to do it all in a single morning? Any suggestions on routing between the stops?

    I have found the PIN issuance process document at http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2005/050210pin_procedures.pdf, but it laughingly talks about the process requiring 20 minutes for each of the "steps", plus 40 for the video. No mention of all the travel time required!
     
  37. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    Well both College Park (for video/forms) and DCA (for fingerprinting) are convenient to public transportation, but you've got to visit a FSDO, which will require a trip to Dulles or Baltimore (and an appointment since they don't serve walk-ins). I think you need to do the airport first, the FSDO second, and the fingerprints last.
     
  38. Steve

    Steve En-Route

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    When I did it last summer I drove to the BWI FSDO first thing in the morning on a Monday (8ish). I waited in the parking lot till the staff showed up and then called from my cell phone. The staffer met me in the entryway and filled out his part on the spot. Then I drove back to the College Park Metro station and rode down to DCA and back. Then did the College Park video. I was done by 12:30pm. Would have been done sooner but I was in the queue at DCA with the ramp workers. I got the PIN a couple weeks later over the phone, no problem.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  39. gprellwitz

    gprellwitz Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My understanding is that you have to do the video AFTER you've done the fingerprinting. Why? I have no idea.:dunno::dunno::dunno:

    So it's:
    1) airport
    2) FSDO at Dulles, since I'm transient
    3) fingerprinting at Reagan
    4) back to airport
    :eek:
     
  40. gprellwitz

    gprellwitz Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Steve,
    You didn't need to go to College Park first to do the form? I'm flying into Dulles, so if I could start off with the FSDO, that would be great. Ooops, won't work. Flying in on 4 July. Think a government office might be closed? :p