Interesting education. I'm learning that 'off-grid' equates to borderline wacko

[Circuit Flyer]

Anybody see PBS's "Frontier House?" It took the glamour out of primitivity right quick. Hurricane Katrina showed the ugly side of a brief collapse of the veneer of society. I like the grid. It keeps the wife and kids cool through the pestilential New Orleans summers. You know, from Feb to October.

 

[Henning]

Anybody see PBS's "Frontier House?" It took the glamour out of primitivity right quick. Hurricane Katrina showed the ugly side of a brief collapse of the veneer of society. I like the grid. It keeps the wife and kids cool through the pestilential New Orleans summers. You know, from Feb to October.

What we need to do is protect the grid by powering it from all ends, not just the big power stations but neighborhood and home stations as well. Australia is already on it with SOFCs at houses providing peaking energy.

 

[Richard]

Man, as I work out the deal on my NM property which is off-grid except for a propane tank(so not really off grid at all), I'm finding my down to earth, logical, engineering mindset isn't fitting well into the mantra of the 'community' of off-grid folk.

I've been communicating with a few of my distant neighbors, and all of it is done by electronic means, only once face to face. They are for the most part rugged individualists who - work for a cement company, or the local B&B/bar, or the gas station, etc. None of them are truly self sufficient with no ties to the power system, as all of them have a gen, just in case and propane tanks. They talk about being self-sufficient but I see a tube of Crest in the bathroom, and Sara-Lee in the fridge, and they sure didn't hand make that purse from Lord & Taylor knock-off.

It's a weird collection of dreamers. I think most of them are trust fund kids but I could be wrong. The closest I've gotten to an actual self contained, and isolated guy lives in a Earthlodge thing in SE NM far, far from the goofy plastic folks around Taos and Santa Fe, along with various places in AZ. He's in a 15x18' mud place, and composts his toilet and rotten food. He dug his own well by hand(he says), and collects firewood for warmth. I'm going to ask if I can come visit and really check him out or if he's full of BS like all the rest of us.

This is what I typically come up against when I look for off-grid info. A typical listing in a off-grid forum:


Living Off The Grid :: Alternative Power - Solar, Wind, Turbine
Actions
Topics ______________________
Filling LPG Gas Bottles cheap?

I see this thread is already over one month since the beginning. So I'm late to the show. Still, I'll add a few words.

Straight away I'll say you are the weird one. You are the weird dreamer. But to your credit, if you last more than a year or two, you'll grow less enchanted with what you left behind as you come to embrace a new beginning. I've met tons of people like you. We called them casualties. For they seemed lost in a foreign world, inordinately plumbing the depths of neighborly advice. Never really giving, always taking then proclaiming new found wisdom as their own. Yet, mostly they never seemed to last even one year in the fresh air. Scary for them, I guess. The stories I could tell....

One, you're a new comer. Maybe in a few years you'll understand all that that means. After all, you're 'down to earth' and 'logical' and of an 'engineering mind set'. Given those qualifications it shouldn't take, say a decade before you know. Your 'qualifications' sound like something from a dating website.

Yes, to you it is a weird set of dreamers. Rugged individualists you say. I don't know your neighbors and NM is an awful large state so I really don't know what type you are talking of. Perhaps you mean some city boys just a few years into it more than yourself. It is they whom still wear a dislike for the too easy convenience of city life. As if they wear it for all but themselves to see. Perhaps you got too near the arsty crowd in Santa Fe who at once express disdain for yonder hustle and bustle of the city yet secretly (but understood amongst them all) wish to return to the metropolis to boast of their sojourns into the wild frontier. How heroic!

Perhaps it is they who truly think of themselves as wanting to find a smaller footprint upon the world. Yeah, weird.

But likely, from your description, is not they who were born and raised of the land. Of them you are less likely to meet. It is not that they live in squalor though you would perceive them as such. No, they prefer to be left alone and to live according to those old ways of the land. You'll likely call it that they lie to themselves. But the thing is they don't care what you think. For you are a newcomer and you squat upon the soil as does a lord. And it is that which you see as disdain. In this you could not be more wrong.

The 'rest of us' are full of BS precisely because that is your perception. The most neighborly thing one could do is to remind you of exactly that. But the money is you will not heed it because your lofty pride will not allow. You being a 'Nice Guy', et al, don't cut it. You'll not see it.

Them that don't know him won't like him and that them do sometimes don't know how to take him, he ain't wrong he's just different....

 

[Richard]

And of them who live in those olde ways, there is a wide and vast network. At best you'll only catch glimpses of such. You'll never know until far after you've dismounted your high horse (of which everyone worth anything were laughing at except they were too polite to show it) and shown yourself as a trusted soul.

Don't trip over your ego as you scour your 'neighbors' for whether they have a tube of Crest. Scoot along now.

 

[Henning]

We are currently living with our state of the art primary energy systems being over 100 years old. We live the 'olde way' right now.

 

[docmirror]

I see this thread is already over one month since the beginning. So I'm late to the show. Still, I'll add a few words.

Straight away I'll say you are the weird one. You are the weird dreamer. But to your credit, if you last more than a year or two, you'll grow less enchanted with what you left behind as you come to embrace a new beginning. I've met tons of people like you. We called them casualties. For they seemed lost in a foreign world, inordinately plumbing the depths of neighborly advice. Never really giving, always taking then proclaiming new found wisdom as their own. Yet, mostly they never seemed to last even one year in the fresh air. Scary for them, I guess. The stories I could tell....

One, you're a new comer. Maybe in a few years you'll understand all that that means. After all, you're 'down to earth' and 'logical' and of an 'engineering mind set'. Given those qualifications it shouldn't take, say a decade before you know. Your 'qualifications' sound like something from a dating website.

Yes, to you it is a weird set of dreamers. Rugged individualists you say. I don't know your neighbors and NM is an awful large state so I really don't know what type you are talking of. Perhaps you mean some city boys just a few years into it more than yourself. It is they whom still wear a dislike for the too easy convenience of city life. As if they wear it for all but themselves to see. Perhaps you got too near the arsty crowd in Santa Fe who at once express disdain for yonder hustle and bustle of the city yet secretly (but understood amongst them all) wish to return to the metropolis to boast of their sojourns into the wild frontier. How heroic!

Perhaps it is they who truly think of themselves as wanting to find a smaller footprint upon the world. Yeah, weird.

But likely, from your description, is not they who were born and raised of the land. Of them you are less likely to meet. It is not that they live in squalor though you would perceive them as such. No, they prefer to be left alone and to live according to those old ways of the land. You'll likely call it that they lie to themselves. But the thing is they don't care what you think. For you are a newcomer and you squat upon the soil as does a lord. And it is that which you see as disdain. In this you could not be more wrong.

The 'rest of us' are full of BS precisely because that is your perception. The most neighborly thing one could do is to remind you of exactly that. But the money is you will not heed it because your lofty pride will not allow. You being a 'Nice Guy', et al, don't cut it. You'll not see it.

Them that don't know him won't like him and that them do sometimes don't know how to take him, he ain't wrong he's just different....

Hey I wanted to say a big thanks.

For reinforcing the stereotype I posted on back then.

You got a few things right, you don't know me. And I admit to being weird. Hopefully on your scale I'll be considered borderline wacko. Yup, appreciate the cogent -- well, let's call it 'insight'.

 

[Henning]

It's actually not weird to want that, it's what you are programmed to want. It takes a life of bombarding you with advertizing every where you look that makes you ignore that. We made fun of of Mao's reeducation camps, but our entire society is nothing but one huge reeducation camp to get you to ignore your conscience.

 

[JHW]

Being proud of living off grid is silly. First time you need an antibiotic or cavity filled or roll of toilet paper, you are not off grid! This "movement" is a fantasy world on par with Scarborough Fair that concludes with a trip to IHOP. It would be more fun and interesting if people didn't see it as a religion.

What the heck does any of that have to do with not having access to electric wires near your house?

 

[Henning]

What the heck does any of that have to do with not having access to electric wires near your house?

There are some people who don't understand that there are places to live that the grid is not available or costs extraordinary amounts of money to get it there.

 

[Alexb2000]

What the heck does any of that have to do with not having access to electric wires near your house?

Everything. The point of the post is that certain groups of people view living off the grid as a form of religion, prepping, environmental statement, dropping out of society, independence, etc. My point was that as soon as you fire up a chainsaw, go to the doctor, etc. you are breaking the tenants of the ideology, although the "believers" would argue to the contrary.

 

[Henning]

Everything. The point of the post is that certain groups of people view living off the grid as a form of religion, prepping, environmental statement, dropping out of society, independence, etc. My point was that as soon as you fire up a chainsaw, go to the doctor, etc. you are breaking the tenants of the ideology, although the "believers" would argue to the contrary.

The error in your position is that it is based on the incorrect viewpoints of those uninvolved they formed by their exposure to the minority of people who live "off grid". Many times they live there because they are exploiting a situations others won't exploit due to the hardships of not being on the grid. Whether that situation is the view to retire with or the cheap land to sustain some agricultural or large surface area experimental or industrial program. We go "off grid" because it makes the program economics work.

On a boat you live off grid any time you are not tied to a dock. There is more to "off grid" than a rejection of culture, they are the few.

 

[docmirror]

Everything. The point of the post is that certain groups of people view living off the grid as a form of religion, prepping, environmental statement, dropping out of society, independence, etc. My point was that as soon as you fire up a chainsaw, go to the doctor, etc. you are breaking the tenants of the ideology, although the "believers" would argue to the contrary.

This is fairly congruent with the theme of the thread. Not to disparage those who want a simpler, or less directed life, I get that, but some of the folks in the off-grid mantra turn it into some kind of 'life experience'. Which doesn't equate to having a french-press coffee machine, and decorator jeans and shoes.

I know, and don't discount that I'm tied to modern society in a thousand ways every day. Even something as innocuous as the large double panes of glass that we take for granted are a modern engineering marvel. The reason I started the thread was to maybe point out the juxtaposition of the back-to-Earth folks, who rely on many of the modern efficiencies but are loath to admit that tether.

 

[Henning]

You don't have to disassociate from society to lower your impact either. It's not an all or nothing issue.

 

[JHW]

Everything. The point of the post is that certain groups of people view living off the grid as a form of religion, prepping, environmental statement, dropping out of society, independence, etc. My point was that as soon as you fire up a chainsaw, go to the doctor, etc. you are breaking the tenants of the ideology, although the "believers" would argue to the contrary.

wow that's quite a prejudice you have going there. I know lots of people who live off the grid. Yes it's expensive, but with a combination of solar, windmill, batteries and generator you can put your house where you want. They aren't wackos and they don't live any differently than you and I except that they have to think a little about managing their energy. They're just regular people without a wire.

That's quite a chip on your shoulder that you think having one strand of copper connected to your house makes you "normal" and those without are all wackos.

 

[Henning]

wow that's quite a prejudice you have going there. I know lots of people who live off the grid. Yes it's expensive, but with a combination of solar, windmill, batteries and generator you can put your house where you want. They aren't wackos and they don't live any differently than you and I except that they have to think a little about managing their energy. They're just regular people without a wire.

That's quite a chip on your shoulder that you think having one strand of copper connected to your house makes you "normal" and those without are all wackos.

It's just crazy to get your energy from someone besides an energy monopoly, it's unpatriotic to deny them their profit, in fact, it's downright treasonous, you must be a communist, pinko, hippie, freak!

 

[Henning]

The Founders were Proto Communists. The American Revolution and Ideal combined with the technological and economic capability spawned by the industrial revolution were what inspired the system. However greed won the Civil War and we lost the cooperative banking model the Founders wanted, and reintroduced a central banking system. Once this was established in precedent, eventually Morgan put the European Banking families back in control of our economy, and thereby our nation. Thus ended "The American Experiment" of getting greed out of control of society in order to form a nation where every man is equal in potential. Now it's just a lie, and anyone that wants America to be what it was supposed to be is just nuts.

 

[Alexb2000]

wow that's quite a prejudice you have going there. I know lots of people who live off the grid. Yes it's expensive, but with a combination of solar, windmill, batteries and generator you can put your house where you want. They aren't wackos and they don't live any differently than you and I except that they have to think a little about managing their energy. They're just regular people without a wire.

That's quite a chip on your shoulder that you think having one strand of copper connected to your house makes you "normal" and those without are all wackos.

I said "certain groups", not everyone and certainly not everywhere. The OP is also talking about NM, where I am a land owner, I've been here 20+ years, and interact almost daily with the groups I listed and they are quite predominant. Although I believe they are all dependent on society, technology, money, etc. they will deny it vehemently because they have solar, a well, etc. Of course there are those that just live that way because there are no other options, or just because they want to, and I am obviously aware of that.

I find your posts in general worthless and needlessly combative so I'll leave you to it.

 

[Henning]

I said "certain groups", not everyone and certainly not everywhere. The OP is also talking about NM, where I am a land owner, I've been here 20+ years, and interact almost daily with the groups I listed and they are quite predominant. Although I believe they are all dependent on society, technology, money, etc. they will deny it vehemently because they have solar, a well, etc. Of course there are those that just live that way because there are no other options, or just because they want to, and I am obviously aware of that.

I find your posts in general worthless and needlessly combative so I'll leave you to it.

There is a distinction between being dependant on, and cooperative with. One you get to agree to the terms. This is the root of a free society.

 

[txflyer]

So this is a "all off grid types are labeled crazy and are hypocrites" thread?

Is it an observation over green power, and mandatorily belonging to some club of misfits and anti-establishment types?

I don't see it as either, because tech catches up with all of us, and you use what you must use that makes sen$e for you. You use what gets the job done. As cheaply as possible. If it's solar and joo-joo beans, you use that. If it's commercial power at $.xx/kilowatt, you use that. Whatever makes better sen$e imo.

 

[docmirror]

To add a bit of fuel to this fire, so that there can be juuuuuuuust a little more righteous indignation, I close on the deal tomorrow. The septic work cost the seller over $3000. I will not be using that septic pump/repairman in the future. Looking forward to some peace and quiet out on the mesa.