Interesting education. I'm learning that 'off-grid' equates to borderline wacko

D

docmirror

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
12,008
Display Name
Cowboy - yeehah!
Man, as I work out the deal on my NM property which is off-grid except for a propane tank(so not really off grid at all), I'm finding my down to earth, logical, engineering mindset isn't fitting well into the mantra of the 'community' of off-grid folk.

I've been communicating with a few of my distant neighbors, and all of it is done by electronic means, only once face to face. They are for the most part rugged individualists who - work for a cement company, or the local B&B/bar, or the gas station, etc. None of them are truly self sufficient with no ties to the power system, as all of them have a gen, just in case and propane tanks. They talk about being self-sufficient but I see a tube of Crest in the bathroom, and Sara-Lee in the fridge, and they sure didn't hand make that purse from Lord & Taylor knock-off.

It's a weird collection of dreamers. I think most of them are trust fund kids but I could be wrong. The closest I've gotten to an actual self contained, and isolated guy lives in a Earthlodge thing in SE NM far, far from the goofy plastic folks around Taos and Santa Fe, along with various places in AZ. He's in a 15x18' mud place, and composts his toilet and rotten food. He dug his own well by hand(he says), and collects firewood for warmth. I'm going to ask if I can come visit and really check him out or if he's full of BS like all the rest of us.

This is what I typically come up against when I look for off-grid info. A typical listing in a off-grid forum:


Living Off The Grid :: Alternative Power - Solar, Wind, Turbine
Actions
Topics ______________________
Filling LPG Gas Bottles cheap?
 
Many 'off grid' properties are that way because running a wire would be cost prohibitive. You can be 'off grid' yet cart in propane or diesel to have heat and electricity.
 
weilke said:
Many 'off grid' properties are that way because running a wire would be cost prohibitive. You can be 'off grid' yet cart in propane or diesel to have heat and electricity.
Click to expand...

And that's exactly what my place is. The cost for a wire to the lot would be > $50k. I have a 800gal propane tank and solar. Not as off-grid as one would think. It's just the nature of the people on off-grid forums or that I meet up there that get me strange looks.
 
docmirror said:
And that's exactly what my place is. The cost for a wire to the lot would be > $50k. I have a 800gal propane tank and solar. Not as off-grid as one would think. It's just the nature of the people on off-grid forums or that I meet up there that get me strange looks.
Click to expand...

Yeah, has it's share of nutters, not that different from any other obscure interest scene.
 
Well, I don't know I'm conversant with some pretty out there stuff, but it seems that the off-grid folk have their own special kind of weirdness.

Frex, I like English sports cars and there's a bunch of people who are a bit out there about that as well, but not like the off-grid isolationists.

Here's another thread: I look at the world we live in and see it falling apart left and right. With religious groups are fighting, protests and riots in the streets, on top of global warming and our dependency on fossil fuels it is easy to see that Times are a changin.<i> </i>To protect myself and my future generations I would like to create a self-sustaining fortress that will protect those inside against outsiders while also providing for the necessities of those inside. One that will offer liberty to those inside without hindering creativity or ambitions.

This society would be self sustaining by utilizing the power of the sun using solar panels. Food will be supplied by a large garden to provide fresh fruits and vegetables and chickens and goats to provide meat, milk, and cheese. A deep underground well will provide unlimited fresh water.

When I picture this society, I see it governed by a technocracy which is on governed by a group of people who have certain expertise. A group of 7 elected officials will work to provide for all the needs of those living in the community.

I am a senior in college and have no capital to begin such an undertaking. I am interested in hearing any questions or suggestions you have or if you would like me to elaborate more just email me:
 
As long as the breakdown of civil order doesn't include the propane truck, most of the off-gridders will do ok :)
 
You're meeting "off the grid" people online?

Online != off the grid...
 
I like special kinds of weirdness. Supposedly certain political types do too, always babbling about diversity while climbing in their cars to go to the mall with their pithy bumper stickers that all say the same tired old boring things.
 
docmirror said:
Man, as I work out the deal on my NM property which is off-grid except for a propane tank(so not really off grid at all), I'm finding my down to earth, logical, engineering mindset isn't fitting well into the mantra of the 'community' of off-grid folk.

I've been communicating with a few of my distant neighbors, and all of it is done by electronic means, only once face to face. They are for the most part rugged individualists who - work for a cement company, or the local B&B/bar, or the gas station, etc. None of them are truly self sufficient with no ties to the power system, as all of them have a gen, just in case and propane tanks. They talk about being self-sufficient but I see a tube of Crest in the bathroom, and Sara-Lee in the fridge, and they sure didn't hand make that purse from Lord & Taylor knock-off.

It's a weird collection of dreamers. I think most of them are trust fund kids but I could be wrong. The closest I've gotten to an actual self contained, and isolated guy lives in a Earthlodge thing in SE NM far, far from the goofy plastic folks around Taos and Santa Fe, along with various places in AZ. He's in a 15x18' mud place, and composts his toilet and rotten food. He dug his own well by hand(he says), and collects firewood for warmth. I'm going to ask if I can come visit and really check him out or if he's full of BS like all the rest of us.

This is what I typically come up against when I look for off-grid info. A typical listing in a off-grid forum:


Living Off The Grid :: Alternative Power - Solar, Wind, Turbine
Actions
Topics ______________________
Filling LPG Gas Bottles cheap?
Click to expand...

yeah, yeah, yeah....are you the least bit surprised? Why?
 
No man is an island.

Fixed fortifications fall. Self sustaining practices will be overrun or confiscated for the 'greater good'. People would be begging to march into FEMA camps.

I gave up thinking a man can survive societal breakdown or a long term grid out scenario long ago. It would be just geographical luck and a lot of work if you did. Nomadic people survived. But who has that kind of experience anymore? If you want a taste of what it would really be like, read "One Second After."
 
I don't think "off grid" should be used as a synonym for "survivalist". One just means not connected to the electrical grid - the other means preparing to survive some wide spread catastrophe.
 
Clark1961 said:
yeah, yeah, yeah....are you the least bit surprised? Why?
Click to expand...

Hehe,, you make a pretty good point. I'm sure there are a lot of people in the world that look at my plane and me and think; 'does he actually get in that thing - and then fly it? Really? yikes.' :D
 
Jim Logajan said:
I don't think "off grid" should be used as a synonym for "survivalist". One just means not connected to the electrical grid - the other means preparing to survive some wide spread catastrophe.
Click to expand...

It shouldn't but there is clearly some intermingling and crossover. Much of the survivalist I can get from fringe rifle groups. The off-grid folks seem to be the other way. Flighty ideals about utopia that will magically spring into being. Water will bubble out of the ground, clear and sweet. Crops will grow without weeds or bugs. It'll be harvested by handmaidens singing tra-la, tra-la all day long. The men will gather wood from the forest, and hunt wild boar and elk. They will ferment mead, or grow the 'special' happy plant, and all kids will be strong and work hard.

When I point out niggily stuff like each solar panel they are using took many, many kilocalories of industrial might to mfg, and that the porcelain for their toilet was fired and glazed in a super hot furnace, they get real quiet, and I think I've crossed the line.

Pretty much every off-grid person I've communicated with gets 90% of their sustenance from Safeway or King Supers. Very little is actually grown, harvested and consumed by them, but to hear tell, it is all they ever eat. Yeah - sure...
 
I don't get the survivalist aspect of it. I think of off grid as exactly that, not connected by wires or pipes to any utility.

This is what off-grid looks like for someone who isn't a hippie living in a VW bus. This is Privett's place in Natal Province, South Africa. The utility poles connect his windmill generator on the hill, to his switchgear and battery bank that live with the diesel generator in the grey building near the big tree on the far left. The large grey building in the middle is for farm machinery. The main airplane hangar and some tee-shade hangars are out of the picture around the hill to the right. In the picture the main house is at the rear, in-law and guest houses at the right, and farmhand bunkhouse is in the foreground. There is a water tower obscured by the tree by the bunkhouse.
 

Attachments

  • privett home.jpg
    privett home.jpg
    273.1 KB · Views: 82
docmirror said:
It shouldn't but there is clearly some intermingling and crossover. Much of the survivalist I can get from fringe rifle groups. The off-grid folks seem to be the other way. Flighty ideals about utopia that will magically spring into being. Water will bubble out of the ground, clear and sweet. Crops will grow without weeds or bugs. It'll be harvested by handmaidens singing tra-la, tra-la all day long. The men will gather wood from the forest, and hunt wild boar and elk. They will ferment mead, or grow the 'special' happy plant, and all kids will be strong and work hard.
Click to expand...

But Ayn Rand said that this exists, right ?
 
lolz. Ayn Rand's protagonists weren't afraid of some hard work and long hours. However, they didn't much appreciate the non-contributors to utopia gaining from the labor of those who built, and produced things. I guess it's like the hippie generation who thought that sitting around getting stoned would get the crop seeded and harvested on the commune. By the time they figured out how hard farming was, the women had left, and the stoners were put on a payment plan.

My idea of off-grid is a lot like what we all think here. We take plenty of modern products to a location where you don't have connection to a power utility. I still need either a propane truck delivery, or I need to take my tank to the propane tank for a refill, and my gen is going to run when I need electricity. I have a windmill, but the SOB prev owner let it go, and now it needs serious gear box work. Which tells me he wasn't much of an off-grid guy cuz without water, all you've got is a one-night shack.
 
You can seed and harvest and get stoned all at the same time, no worries. See all the Mexicans doing hard labor getting the crops in and harvested? They're all stoned, all day.
 
docmirror said:
My idea of off-grid is a lot like what we all think here. We take plenty of modern products to a location where you don't have connection to a power utility. I still need either a propane truck delivery, or I need to take my tank to the propane tank for a refill, and my gen is going to run when I need electricity. I have a windmill, but the SOB prev owner let it go, and now it needs serious gear box work. Which tells me he wasn't much of an off-grid guy cuz without water, all you've got is a one-night shack.
Click to expand...

How big is your patch in NM ? Just a vacation/hunting spot or do you plan to be there longer term ?
 
I'd like to see if they can at least 'skin a buck and run a trot line'.

If they have any trees they need to be able to stack up some firewood too.

I got tired if listening to one guy talk about 'living off the land'. Never mind skinning the buck, I don't think he could even catch, clean, and cook a fish without help.
 
weilke said:
How big is your patch in NM ? Just a vacation/hunting spot or do you plan to be there longer term ?
Click to expand...

We-ull, that's an interesting question. Right now, the deeded transfer lists about 26ac so, just barely a soul patch in terms of land. However, there is a discrepancy on the land improvement report that doesn't jibe with the physical survey and there's a section of about 8ac in question. What it looks like right now is the improvements guy went out and included a section of neighboring land by mistake. We think he got the wrong survey marker and made his diagram off that. So, the seller wants to find out if he's got that extra 8ac or not. My bet at first look is he doesn't, and it belongs to someone else. Also, there's an option for another 27ac that I will exercise once we get this first mess sorted out.

As for use, right now we're just going to use it part time. Later when I retire things may change dramatically but I'm keeping the options open.
 
docmirror said:
My idea of off-grid is a lot like what we all think here. We take plenty of modern products to a location where you don't have connection to a power utility. I still need either a propane truck delivery, or I need to take my tank to the propane tank for a refill, and my gen is going to run when I need electricity. I have a windmill, but the SOB prev owner let it go, and now it needs serious gear box work. Which tells me he wasn't much of an off-grid guy cuz without water, all you've got is a one-night shack.
Click to expand...

Depending where you are, wind can get you done living in energy luxury; you just need to store the energy. Batteries, capacitors, or hydrogen are your three basic ways. If you have access to water, hydrogen would be the natural choice since you can also buy H2 fuel cell vehicles, and the fuel cell for your house will also provide you with hot water as a by product. You could be completely energy self sufficient for a million dollars, but you would likely need a tank trailer for trips outside 400 miles (although more cities are getting H2 fill stations).
 
Have you thought about dropping a solar pump in your well and let it pump while the sun is up into a holding tank? You don't need batteries, just sunshine.

We are converting all our windmills as they wear out to solar.

It's a great setup. It doesn't freeze, there's minimum maintenance, and it just works day in day out.



The tank has an overflow pipe that lets water run out into a catch pond for added water. It lets the birds and all the small animals have a mini-oasis. :)
 
I go off grid every summer in a smal town in Wisconsin. I camp under my wing and cook my meals using mogas from my plane.
 
Henning said:
(although more cities are getting H2 fill stations).
Click to expand...


.............................................
attachment.php




 

Attachments

  • Hydro.jpg
    Hydro.jpg
    211.4 KB · Views: 171
txflyer said:
Have you thought about dropping a solar pump in your well and let it pump while the sun is up into a holding tank? You don't need batteries, just sunshine.

The tank has an overflow pipe that lets water run out into a catch pond for added water. It lets the birds and all the small animals have a mini-oasis. :)
Click to expand...

Yes, going with the Nemo 24VDC driven by a 230W solar panel. I've asked the Nemo people about a charge controller for the open circuit voltage of about 35 volts and they haven't gotten back to me. I presume that the panel will regulate it close enough I won't need a charge reg, but I'll prolly put one on anyway.

My other concern is a low voltage disconnect. If I put one in, the pump won't run until the min voltage for the disconnect is reached. However, once the pump starts, I'm concerned that the voltage will sag enough to trip the disconnect, and I'll get a pulsing problem which can only be solved with an LC circuit to slow the voltage sag, or with a battery as a sink.

I'm definitely switching over to solar well pump and have a 240Gal tank for use after hours. This will either require me to put the tank up high and use gravity, or just give up and put in a battery bank and use a demand pump(RV type). Since I have a RV pump and I've got some boat batts, I'll prolly just go with the demand system.

http://www.nemosolar.com/
 
docmirror said:
Yes, going with the Nemo 24VDC driven by a 230W solar panel. I've asked the Nemo people about a charge controller for the open circuit voltage of about 35 volts and they haven't gotten back to me. I presume that the panel will regulate it close enough I won't need a charge reg, but I'll prolly put one on anyway.

My other concern is a low voltage disconnect. If I put one in, the pump won't run until the min voltage for the disconnect is reached. However, once the pump starts, I'm concerned that the voltage will sag enough to trip the disconnect, and I'll get a pulsing problem which can only be solved with an LC circuit to slow the voltage sag, or with a battery as a sink.

I'm definitely switching over to solar well pump and have a 240Gal tank for use after hours. This will either require me to put the tank up high and use gravity, or just give up and put in a battery bank and use a demand pump(RV type). Since I have a RV pump and I've got some boat batts, I'll prolly just go with the demand system.

http://www.nemosolar.com/
Click to expand...


I found a 35' tank stand on the property next door and put a tall 750 gallon poly tank on it and it gave me good enough pressure, and it's a pump on it gave at least a semblance of ability at dealing with a fire. It would be easy enough to weld one up from scrap pipe and the tank was around $500.
 
If you can get away with a solar well and gravity fed system, that's going to be about as off grid and maintenance free as you can get. I would want a hand pump somewhere on it for break downs or backup.

Make sure that tank is jet black or underground or you will be fighting algae and marine growth. No light must be allowed to penetrate it.

I've even heard of guys using U/V lights to sterilize cisterns for drinking. But they require power.
 
Last edited:
txflyer said:
If you can get away with a solar well and gravity fed system, that's going to be about as off grid and maintenance free as you can get.

Make sure that tank is jet black or underground or you will be fighting algae and marine growth. No light must be allowed to penetrate it.

I've even heard of guys using U/V lights to sterilize cisterns for drinking. But they require power.
Click to expand...

Very little power, especially if you set up the light on a solar powered circulating pump where you don't need enough light to do the whole tank, just keep the water "polished". I do much the same with boat water tanks.
 
txflyer said:
If you can get away with a solar well and gravity fed system, that's going to be about as off grid and maintenance free as you can get. I would want a hand pump somewhere on it for break downs or backup.

Make sure that tank is jet black or underground or you will be fighting algae and marine growth. No light must be allowed to penetrate it.

I've even heard of guys using U/V lights to sterilize cisterns for drinking. But they require power.
Click to expand...

It's a red metal tank with a pressure gauge and relief valve and pressure switch on it. I'm no expert but I think it's made to be used with one of those RV kind of pumps to maintain a head pressure with the pump off. The head pressure is settable with a allen wrench. I'll look at it closer when I get the water running.

Pretty sure I"m not going to try going with gravity, and I'll just be using a batt and pump with the tank. Want to keep it easy, but also want water anytime not just during light hours and I don't want crappy gravity flow rates either.
 
docmirror said:
It's a red metal tank with a pressure gauge and relief valve and pressure switch on it. I'm no expert but I think it's made to be used with one of those RV kind of pumps to maintain a head pressure with the pump off. The head pressure is settable with a allen wrench. I'll look at it closer when I get the water running.

Pretty sure I"m not going to try going with gravity, and I'll just be using a batt and pump with the tank. Want to keep it easy, but also want water anytime not just during light hours and I don't want crappy gravity flow rates either.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's an accumulator tank system, they work tolerably well, but he was referring to your main storage tank.
 
Right. Your main storage tank needs to be U/G or impenetrable by sunlight.

And freeze proof.

For water and utilities 24/7, you simply cannot get away from batteries. Spend the money on them for they will be the heart of your system. I want to do something similar at our farm. It has an old in ground cistern that is excellent for this, but my Dad took it out of service back when electricity costs were not a factor to anyone.
 
txflyer said:
Right. Your main storage tank needs to be U/G or impenetrable by sunlight.

And freeze proof.

For water and utilities 24/7, you simply cannot get away from batteries. Spend the money on them for they will be the heart of your system. I want to do something similar at our farm. It has an old in ground cistern that is excellent for this, but my Dad took it out of service back when electricity costs were not a factor to anyone.
Click to expand...

Best thing to do is just buy a poly tank and wrap it with cheap FG roll insulation. Do two layers with the top layer a thin one glass out that you just hit with resin (you can even use Arabol or exterior latex paint) to seal it. Now you have an insulated light protected tank cheap.
 
txflyer said:
Right. Your main storage tank needs to be U/G or impenetrable by sunlight.

And freeze proof.

For water and utilities 24/7, you simply cannot get away from batteries. Spend the money on them for they will be the heart of your system. I want to do something similar at our farm. It has an old in ground cistern that is excellent for this, but my Dad took it out of service back when electricity costs were not a factor to anyone.
Click to expand...

If it was a full time place, I'd have other priorities. I'm not going to be there that much so the tank will have a drain-back to the well. We'll bring up water when we arrive and hook up the batts fully charged for a couple hours. Then as long as we are there it'll stay on the solar setup. I can vary the amount of water with a simple float switch, no reason to pump 200 gal if I'm only gonna be there for a few days, then drain it back to the well.

I just planned the tank because it's already there. Would prefer to use a 55 gal poly tank, and maybe sell the big metal one. So, that's my freeze proof. If it gets real cold while I'm there, I have a wall mounted propane heater in the pump room. It was designed well by the first guy, but the second owner was a doof. The batts are going to be on a removable skid so I can take them with me. Solar panel will be slant mounted in a big bay window on the inside. Batts are a hassle but I gotta do it.
 
My cabin is off the grid. I have electricity, water, thermostatic heat, television, phone, hot tub, comfort, etc. I learned a long time ago that if I wanted my wife and daughter to go with me to a place where I wanted to go I had to make it a place that they wanted to go to as well. Solar power was one of the best improvements I ever added. I still have a generator but I rarely use it.
 
Stewartb said:
My cabin is off the grid. I have electricity, water, thermostatic heat, television, phone, hot tub, comfort, etc. I learned a long time ago that if I wanted my wife and daughter to go with me to a place where I wanted to go I had to make it a place that they wanted to go to as well. Solar power was one of the best improvements I ever added. I still have a generator but I rarely use it.
Click to expand...

Which inverter do you use?
 
I used a Trace (now Schneider Electric) for a many years but changed to a Magnum Energy when I changed out by batteries a couple of years ago.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top