Interesting Comparison of Cessna & Cirrus

FWIW, I agree with Kenny on the quote that you posted... People tend to not get nearly enough training after they're rated. I think that the group we have here is far better than the average pilot - We're obviously the type of people who continuously seek new knowledge in aviation, love doing it, love talking about it... There are a lot of people who have ASEL-IA in their pocket and a Bo or Cirrus in their hangar who aren't really passionate about flying, it's just a way for them to get somewhere.

For a VFR pilot, how much more training is needed beyond the initial training and exams?

Going out and flying regularly to me is more important than dragging along just any CFI that's little more than ballast and saying, "Look, I'm getting more training!"


Trapper John
 
See FedX Narita tape. That airplane or a 172 if you had the choice?

I agree with this. Your senses and timing become attuned to whatever speed you are accustomed to traveling. We are not physiologically much different than people of 100 years ago, most of whom had not driven a car much less flown an airplane. They probably thought 50 mph was an incredibly dangerous speed to be traveling. How could your reflexes handle it??

I showed one of the aerial photographers I used to work with how to fly around and land a C-206 since he expressed some interest. Later he decided to take some flying lessons in a C-172. His comments to me were about how slow and gutless it was, how it felt like a kite and how he had problems with overcontrolling until he got used to it.
 
For a VFR pilot, how much more training is needed beyond the initial training and exams?

Going out and flying regularly to me is more important than dragging along just any CFI that's little more than ballast and saying, "Look, I'm getting more training!"

I agree - But we're talking people who don't even FLY much any more, much less TRAIN. And yes, training is important - Bad habits develop, unused skills atrophy. I do so much cross country, and I fly out of a class C, that my plain old traffic patterns got pretty bad. Kate complained so much, I made her help me. ;) Another one that I didn't really notice until my Commercial checkride was that I've gotten kind of bad at engine-outs. So, a couple weeks ago, I felt like flying and didn't have a destination in mind, so I grabbed my CFI and went to work on them.

For the training to work well, you need a CFI that doesn't just say "oh, you're fine" you need one that will start with whatever level you are at, and make you better. That's why I fly with the CFI that I use primarily - He will challenge me every single time. When I got good at partial panel, he took me down to nothing but the airspeed indicator and the magnetic compass - In actual IMC. (Believe it or not, having all that stuff covered up actually improved my scan when it was uncovered!) After getting a little lazy from using VOR's and GPS for navigation all the time, he had me do an entire cross country, some approaches and some holds, all on NDB's. (ATC was like... You're routed via NDB's... Seriously? :rofl:) Unfortunately, there aren't nearly enough CFI's like that in the world, and not nearly enough pilots who seek to be challenged like that. We don't like to admit that we're not SuperPilots. :no:
 
I think the SR20 would be a fine trainer. In fact, I think I've heard of some university programs and other flight schools using the SR20 as a trainer. I'd love to give instruction in one.
 
I agree - But we're talking people who don't even FLY much any more, much less TRAIN. And yes, training is important - Bad habits develop, unused skills atrophy. I do so much cross country, and I fly out of a class C, that my plain old traffic patterns got pretty bad. Kate complained so much, I made her help me. ;) Another one that I didn't really notice until my Commercial checkride was that I've gotten kind of bad at engine-outs. So, a couple weeks ago, I felt like flying and didn't have a destination in mind, so I grabbed my CFI and went to work on them.

I agree there are a lot of pilots that don't fly enough to keep their skills up to ideal levels. But, I don't think it necessarily takes a CFI to intervene in the skill maintenance department. There's no reason a regular guy/gal private pilot can't pick some items out of the PTS standards to work for a given flight, keeping in mind that it's probably not a good idea to do steep turns and a stall series with nonpilot passengers.


Trapper John
 
But, I don't think it necessarily takes a CFI to intervene in the skill maintenance department. There's no reason a regular guy/gal private pilot can't pick some items out of the PTS standards to work for a given flight
True as far as it goes. The caveat is that you would want to involve a CFI - and not necessarily the same one you've been working with forever, either - occasionally just to make sure you're not practicing bad habits.
 
I agree there are a lot of pilots that don't fly enough to keep their skills up to ideal levels. But, I don't think it necessarily takes a CFI to intervene in the skill maintenance department. There's no reason a regular guy/gal private pilot can't pick some items out of the PTS standards to work for a given flight, keeping in mind that it's probably not a good idea to do steep turns and a stall series with nonpilot passengers.

I agree completely. If it's something that I get better at when I practice myself, I don't bother with a CFI. If it's something that I practice and then say "OK, why do I still suck at this?" then I'll grab a CFI. Another (experienced) pilot might do the trick in this case too.
 
A Skylane costs $384,500 new and goes 140 knots burning 13 gph. An SR20 costs $269,000 and goes 150 knots burning 10 gph. The Skylane gets off the runway faster and carries 145 more pounds which is more than eaten up by the extra fuel needed to feed the Skylane's thirsty engine.

Can you tell me why on earth you'd recommend a Skylane over the SR20? Don't get me wrong, I obviously love the Skylane, but you're recommending your students spend an extra $115,500 for... What, exactly? :dunno:

Like you said, Skylane gets off the runway faster. For many missions, that is the single most importantant factor. Add to that its seaplane and amphib upgradeability, highwing flightseeing superiority and general user friendliness on the ground and the 182s just come up as far more versatile aircraft.
 
Like you said, Skylane gets off the runway faster. For many missions, that is the single most importantant factor. Add to that its seaplane and amphib upgradeability, highwing flightseeing superiority and general user friendliness on the ground and the 182s just come up as far more versatile aircraft.

Dave,

I fly a 182. You don't need to tell me what a great airplane it is! And I'd still rather fly a 182 than an SR20, myself. I just don't see why Cirrus and the SR20 are being bashed so much. There's nothing WRONG with them either, and for someone who doesn't care about going into short/soft fields or flying off water like you and I do, the SR20 is a fine machine that will go faster on less fuel. So why do we feel the need to bash it, just because it doesn't happen to fit OUR mission? Lots of people just want to go places and get there fast, and the SR20 is a fine plane for that.

Slow learner?

Or lucky... Take your pick.
 
You know what? When you begin training, everything is scary and new. A 20 is not any different from a Cessna 172 with a glass panel. Go ahead and blast me, but emotionally, and technically (from a checklist standpoint) it will FEEL the same. They're right.






And I want a 22
 
I see argument to train in what you buy. For some, this may be a good idea. Note, I said "some", a relative amount... to what? By and large, I think this would be a bad idea. Most people seeing flight training are not suited to this level of training. And, as stated by others, most will not continue to seek out the training in maintaining proficiency.

In an earlier post I stated, "If you fly too fast, your errors happen even faster." One person twisted that into "You're flying faster than I am!" or something along those lines. Who cares how fast you go as long as it's appropriate for the phase of flight and within the limitations of 91.117? Perhaps the person on the parallel approach as you overshoot the localizer? I witnessed this. He was one of those who had no indication of any training for any purpose since his flight review over a year earlier. I was saying something right along with the controller advising him to correct his course. Either way, it's a good reason not to overfly your skill level. Few pilots can suddenly adapt to flying their first ILS at 160 KIAS. This guy had problems with years of "experience."

Next, there are few locations available where you can train in a Cirrus whether it's a 20 or 22. Add to that, the cost is going to be considerably higher. One local club/school has an SR-22. The hourly cost per tach hour is $239. By the way, this is on top of the monthly membership fee of $385.

I don't know where the wealthy folks known of here got their money. But, I have only one student who was born into money. The rest earned it and they didn't do so by spending a lot of money early on in less-productive activity. I know at least two of my students wouldn't make that step in primary training. So, they choose the current mode and in the end get more bang for the buck.

As far as technology being scary... I've never said that. Not once. Technology has produced some awesome tools. Flying glass can be a great tool. I will tell you it's a lot harder to train a primary student on glass if you don't have a decent simulator. I can say that with absolute certainty as three of my primary students are learning on glass. If you've never tried to learn a new operating system or software tool while moving in three dimensions, you're in for a treat. Sims make it safer and less expensive... unless you're at a 142 school for the Sovereign. Nothing's cheap there.

Yes, I said it can take fifteen hours to transition to glass. Now, let me qualify that... again. If you've never flown anything but analog gages and suddenly want to learn to fly IFR on glass, expect to spend a reasonable fifteen hours coming up to par in proficiently and safely operating that aircraft in IMC. Some may do it in less. Others will take longer. Either way, I won't sign off someone to rent my airplane until I'm convinced they are safe and proficient on glass instruments. It's my ticket and my signature and number in your logbook... my livelihood at risk. I get to choose how that signature and are applied.

Flying isn't hard. At least, not for those who have been trained to do so. Flying is all about managed risk. I've watched pilots go up without fear. I watched one guy ready to stuff his grandparents and sister into a plane while using the wrong weight and balance figures. Would it have flown? Certainly. But, it takes only one minor incident followed by an investigation finding the aircraft was overweight. That particular pilot wants to become a CFI. It only takes one incident to toast his chances.

I don't think Steve intended to bash Cirrus. Nor, did I. They put out an awesome aircraft. Most aircraft manufacturers do. But, desire for market share often often outweighs the desire to putting the appropriate aircraft into the hands of a given experience level. The SR-22 does not fill that bill for the greatest majority of those seeking instruction.

With that...

Steven, Welcome to the board! I'm sorry for the baptism in fire with your blog posted. Yep, I was the one who responded to your email through the Cessna Affiliate Site.

But, I do love the story on champagne. :cheerswine:
 
True as far as it goes. The caveat is that you would want to involve a CFI - and not necessarily the same one you've been working with forever, either - occasionally just to make sure you're not practicing bad habits.

Good point. And you can learn from flying with other pilots that don't happen to be CFIs, too.


Trapper John
 
A Skylane costs $384,500 new and goes 140 knots burning 13 gph. An SR20 costs $269,000 and goes 150 knots burning 10 gph. The Skylane gets off the runway faster and carries 145 more pounds which is more than eaten up by the extra fuel needed to feed the Skylane's thirsty engine.

Can you tell me why on earth you'd recommend a Skylane over the SR20? Don't get me wrong, I obviously love the Skylane, but you're recommending your students spend an extra $115,500 for... What, exactly? :dunno:

If you mission profile is to use only paved runways of 3000' or longer then I agree with you completely. When I was based at KSGF I would loved to have had an SR20 or 22 sitting around for when my mission profile was suitable. But now I'm based at 0T3 (2800' grass) and plan to build a strip on my property (2000' with 4% grade from south to north). The closest paved runway is 45 minutes away. I don't think a cirrus is in my future.

Everything is a compromise/trade-off.
 
If you mission profile is to use only paved runways of 3000' or longer then I agree with you completely. When I was based at KSGF I would loved to have had an SR20 or 22 sitting around for when my mission profile was suitable. But now I'm based at 0T3 (2800' grass) and plan to build a strip on my property (2000' with 4% grade from south to north). The closest paved runway is 45 minutes away. I don't think a cirrus is in my future.

Everything is a compromise/trade-off.


Absolutely true. However a large part of the country lives on the east and west coasts. Paved runways are usually close by. You live in Missouri. Different story. Unless in the backcountry, many would choose speed over marginal takeoff distance. Owning a Grumman I have heard that song ad nausium. I have NEVER been restricted of where to go in the USA by runway length. I like the extra speed it provides over similarly powered Cessnas and Pipers.

Unless you are a bush pilot the Cirri are GREAT airplanes.
 
If you mission profile is to use only paved runways of 3000' or longer then I agree with you completely. When I was based at KSGF I would loved to have had an SR20 or 22 sitting around for when my mission profile was suitable. But now I'm based at 0T3 (2800' grass) and plan to build a strip on my property (2000' with 4% grade from south to north). The closest paved runway is 45 minutes away. I don't think a cirrus is in my future.

Everything is a compromise/trade-off.

You may note that I'm somewhat playing devil's advocate on this - I fly a 182 and think it's probably the best all-around airplane there is.

However, I do get sick of the Cirrus-bashing. It's an excellent product, and while it certainly doesn't work for all situations, it's a great airplane for many people, and made by a great company.
 
Absolutely true. However a large part of the country lives on the east and west coasts. Paved runways are usually close by. You live in Missouri. Different story. Unless in the backcountry, many would choose speed over marginal takeoff distance. Owning a Grumman I have heard that song ad nausium. I have NEVER been restricted of where to go in the USA by runway length. I like the extra speed it provides over similarly powered Cessnas and Pipers.

Unless you are a bush pilot the Cirri are GREAT airplanes.

One word: Gaston's. :D

That's the biggest problem with some of these planes - They're difficult to get in and out of Gaston's!
 
One word: Gaston's. :D

That's the biggest problem with some of these planes - They're difficult to get in and out of Gaston's!


Didn't Cap'n Ron fly his Tiger in and OUT of Gaston's? That's no problem for a Tiger.
 
Dave,

I fly a 182. You don't need to tell me what a great airplane it is! And I'd still rather fly a 182 than an SR20, myself. I just don't see why Cirrus and the SR20 are being bashed so much. There's nothing WRONG with them either, and for someone who doesn't care about going into short/soft fields or flying off water like you and I do, the SR20 is a fine machine that will go faster on less fuel. So why do we feel the need to bash it, just because it doesn't happen to fit OUR mission? Lots of people just want to go places and get there fast, and the SR20 is a fine plane for that.



Or lucky... Take your pick.

I was just answering your question as to why the 182 is worth more than the Cirrus...
 
I would be very surprised if Cirri haven't successfully landed at Gaston's many times. We don't happen to have one that's come to our event.
 
Didn't Cap'n Ron fly his Tiger in and OUT of Gaston's? That's no problem for a Tiger.

Yes... And he started his takeoff roll across the street from where the runway actually begins. Try again. ;)

(Actually, that was a very smart thing to do - Use ALL the available room!)
 
I would be very surprised if Cirri haven't successfully landed at Gaston's many times. We don't happen to have one that's come to our event.

Joe brought his one year, but took it into KBPK. Not that that means anything. I think the pants on the SR22 are pretty low to the ground and would probably take a beating on most grass fields.
 
Yes... And he started his takeoff roll across the street from where the runway actually begins. Try again. ;)

(Actually, that was a very smart thing to do - Use ALL the available room!)


Try what again? He got out succesfully, right? What is your point? Every aircraft is a compromise. I'll give away a few hundred feet of takeoff distance to gain 15 knots over similarly powered Cessnas and Pipers. Grummans will do grass just fine.
 
I was just answering your question as to why the 182 is worth more than the Cirrus...


It's only worth more if it already has a set of amphibs on it. Otherwise all you get extra can be bought at Outdoor World by buying a set of tent poles....:D
 
Just a thought -- how come the Air Force and Navy do ab initio in T-6II's? Don't they do 300 KIAS with 1000 hp up front?

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Just a thought -- how come the Air Force and Navy do ab initio in T-6II's? Don't they do 300 KIAS with 1000 hp up front?

Cheers,

-Andrew

...with a very select group of candidates with a very high motivation rate with a matched washout rate.

Apples and oranges...
 
Last edited:
Just a thought -- how come the Air Force and Navy do ab initio in T-6II's? Don't they do 300 KIAS with 1000 hp up front?

Cheers,

-Andrew

Because they don't train every moron with a couple hundred bucks in his pocket.

They also, at least I know the AF does, pays for you to get your PPL (up to 40hrs worth IIRC) before you show up.
 
Didn't Cap'n Ron fly his Tiger in and OUT of Gaston's? That's no problem for a Tiger.
He also left early, in the cool. Cap'nRon intends to continue surviving. I thought I was going to loose my medical after watching Bill with 3 up in the cherokee depart....(CatsNDogs)...

The Cirrus is limited by AOA (tailstrike).
 
It's only worth more if it already has a set of amphibs on it. Otherwise all you get extra can be bought at Outdoor World by buying a set of tent poles....:D

Maybe all the Skylane buyers & renters are saving a lot of money on tent poles...
 
I thought I was going to loose my medical after watching Bill with 3 up in the cherokee depart....(CatsNDogs)...

Me too! :hairraise:

Actually, most of the near-incidents at Gaston's seem to be Cherokees. Ban them! They're unsafe! :frown2:
 
He also left early, in the cool. Cap'nRon intends to continue surviving.


Which I would also do and will add that I also will be light, well, well under gross. I am sure Ron left well under gross also. I'd gas up at some B-52 base more suitable for the Tiger, then be on my merry way.
 
Because they don't train every moron with a couple hundred bucks in his pocket.

They also, at least I know the AF does, pays for you to get your PPL (up to 40hrs worth IIRC) before you show up.

A friend went off to Wichita Falls and only had 20hrs under his hands before he got his first taste of the Texan, and this was in late 2007.

Does anyone know what the washout rate is in the AF program?

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Back
Top