Interesting Comparison of Cessna & Cirrus

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KennyFlys

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Cessna sales guy and CFII Steven Wilson has presented an interesting comparison of incidents between Cessna and Cirrus.

http://stevewilsonblog.com/2009/04/16/dead-pilots-dont-lie.aspx

This was my reply to Steven:
I don't believe it's the aircraft make or model at all. Cirrus does put out a good product. In fact, I believe it rest entirely upon the type of pilot buying the aircraft. The Cirrus tends to be sold to those who have more dollars than sense. The BRS only contributes to their comfort level while the real problem is lack of experience and skill.

His reply was telling. I had not seen this before:

CirrusAdvertisment.jpg


The Cirrus is far, far from a trainer and shouldn't be presented nor even joked as such.
 
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You're assuming that Cirrus advertising/marketing people are testifying under oath and held to the same disclosure requirements as SEC filings?
 
You're assuming that Cirrus advertising/marketing people are testifying under oath and held to the same disclosure requirements as SEC filings?
Not at all. I never assume marketing executives and advertisers are being completely honest or maintaining a responsible standard to the consumer. Do I think they will intentionally lie to me? No, but I'll take most claims with a grain of salt.

Stating a Cirrus could be misktaken as a trainer? Yeah, ok.
 
Fixed-gear trike single with a parachute. What could be safer?

Not at all. I never assume marketing executives and advertisers are being completely honest or maintaining a responsible standard to the consumer. Do I think they will intentionally lie to me? No, but I'll take most claims with a grain of salt.

Stating a Cirrus could be misktaken as a trainer? Yeah, ok.
 
Fixed-gear trike single with a parachute. What could be safer?
I'm not denying it can provide a safer outcome. I am saying lack of experience and poor skill tends to be vehicle that puts them in that position from the start. Misleading marketing perpetuate the process.

It's my understanding Cirrus provides an excellent training program for new buyers. I'd like to know how many buyers complete that with results substantially above PTS and how many of those buyers pursue further proficiency training after the initial training. Such ads as that shown insinuates it's not necessary.
 
Cessna sales guy and CFII Steven Wilson has presented an interesting comparison of incidents between Cessna and Cirrus.

http://stevewilsonblog.com/2009/04/16/dead-pilots-dont-lie.aspx

He seems to want to make the Cirrus look really bad. It appears to me that he started with an outcome and found statistics to support it. :nono:

His reply was telling. I had not seen this before:

CirrusAdvertisment.jpg


The Cirrus is far, far from a trainer and shouldn't be presented nor even joked as such.

Okay, I'll say it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a Cirrus SR20 as a trainer. :no: In fact, if someone came to me and asked what would be a good airplane for them to buy and learn to fly, I might even go so far as to say that the SR20 is the best airplane for them to purchase.
 
It's only advertising, and Cessna has done the same thing in the past.

Land-O-Matic – In 1956 Cessna introduced sprung-steel tricycle landing gear on the Cessna 172. The marketing department chose the buzzwords “Land-O-Matic” to try to convey that the these aircraft were much easier to land and take-off than the conventional landing gear equipped Cessna 170 that preceded the 172. They even went as far as to say that the pilots could do “drive-up take-offs and drive-in landings” in an attempt to make it seem like flying these aircraft was as easy as driving a car.
http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/history/article.asp?id=742
 
It's only advertising, and Cessna has done the same thing in the past.
I'd refer back to my earlier posts and comment to Steven. I don't have a huge amount of trust for marketing folks. But, nor is it the airplane.
 
I'd refer back to my earlier posts and comment to Steven. I don't have a huge amount of trust for marketing folks. But, nor is it the airplane.
I guess I'm not understanding your point then. :confused:
 
I guess I'm not understanding your point then. :confused:

I don't believe it's the aircraft make or model at all. Cirrus does put out a good product. In fact, I believe it rest entirely upon the type of pilot buying the aircraft. The Cirrus tends to be sold to those who have more dollars than sense. The BRS only contributes to their comfort level while the real problem is lack of experience and skill.

Emphasis added.
 
The Cirrus tends to be sold to those who have more dollars than sense.
Isn't that true about most aircraft? :target:

Really I think that anyone who would criticize Cirrus for that reason is suffering from dollar envy. If people have enough money to buy a nice airplane more power to them. Cessnas aren't exactly cheap either.

The BRS only contributes to their comfort level while the real problem is lack of experience and skill.
Now you are unfairly lumping people together. It's true that there is a lack of experience and skill out there but it isn't limited to Cirrus pilots.
 
The Cirrus makes a fine trainer. As far as the owners having more dollars than sense..I would think a man like you would appreciate the fact that we live in a country where folks can have more dollars than they need and spend it on things they don't need.

Generally...the owners..do have some sense.
 
Isn't that true about most aircraft? :target:
To an extent, I agree. Most buy what they are capable of.

Really I think that anyone who would criticize Cirrus for that reason is suffering from dollar envy. If people have enough money to buy a nice airplane more power to them. Cessnas aren't exactly cheap either.
Would I like to have what some of my students have? Certainly. But, where I am is a fact of life. But, I depend on those folks having the disposable income to obtain my services. I'm gonna support whatever means appropriate for them to be able to do so.

Now you are unfairly lumping people together. It's true that there is a lack of experience and skill out there but it isn't limited to Cirrus pilots.
Agreed. That's why I say it's not the airplane. But, the Cirrus is the sharper looking and more attractive over the Cessna whether it's the Skyhawk, Skylane or Stationair. It's also more expensive so it draws those with the money. Not necessarily those with the experience.
 
The Cirrus makes a fine trainer. As far as the owners having more dollars than sense..I would think a man like you would appreciate the fact that we live in a country where folks can have more dollars than they need and spend it on things they don't need.

Generally...the owners..do have some sense.
I do appreciate these folks have the disposable income. But, I would never push someone to buy more airplane than they are ready for. My students who are looking to buy, I push them toward a Skylane for a first purchase or continue to rent for a while. I compare it to investing more in their business than they are ready to risk.

I know a real estate agent who lost sales because he wouldn't sell more home than folks were capable of maintaining on their true budget. A responsible aircraft salesman would do the same.
 
To an extent, I agree. Most buy what they are capable of.


Would I like to have what some of my students have? Certainly. But, where I am is a fact of life. But, I depend on those folks having the disposable income to obtain my services. I'm gonna support whatever means appropriate for them to be able to do so.


Agreed. That's why I say it's not the airplane. But, the Cirrus is the sharper looking and more attractive over the Cessna whether it's the Skyhawk, Skylane or Stationair. It's also more expensive so it draws those with the money. Not necessarily those with the experience.

Where are you trying to go with this? Why is experience a factor? Isn't the term "experienced student" an oxymoron? The issue is whether a student can safely train in a Cirrus. Nobody seems to disagree about that, or that they cost more and that some people like them better. Why are your panties wadded up over this? Did one of your prospective students buy one?
 
Cessna sales guy and CFII Steven Wilson has presented an interesting comparison of incidents between Cessna and Cirrus.

http://stevewilsonblog.com/2009/04/16/dead-pilots-dont-lie.aspx

I love it when folks make absolute statements: "There's not a single recorded instance of a strutted-wing single engine Cessna having an airframe failure or flight control malfunction mid-air. "

"Inadequate maintenance inspection of the airplane by company maintenance personnel which resulted in corrosion in an aileron control cable going undetected, failure of the aileron control cable, and impact with terrain following loss of control of the airplane." MIA02FA066 (Cessna 172)

And as far as in-flight airframe failure, try:

ANC06FA048B
NYC05LA002B
LAX06LA056B
DEN99LA067A
MIA99FA126B
MIA03LA038B
SEA01LA122B
LAX98LA253B
NYC00LA081B
CHI04LA104A
ATL98FA060B
MIA01FA028B
FTW01FA025A
MIA03FA124A
FTW01FA058B
CHI99LA040A
NYC00FA058A
DEN03MA035B

Aficionados of the NTSB accident reports will recognize the "A" and "B" suffixes as cases of midair collisions. Sure, it doesn't reflect on the aircraft's structural design, but most certainly involved in-flight airframe failure.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Jeez, it's the V-35 discussion, only 40 years later!

Cheers,

-Andrew



Yeah, basically. I flew to KLNS today for lunch. Saw five Cirri. None of them crashed. What a surprise.

GA owes a huge debt to companies like Cirrus who offer a modern, fast well equipped airplane.
 
Where are you trying to go with this? Why is experience a factor? Isn't the term "experienced student" an oxymoron? The issue is whether a student can safely train in a Cirrus. Nobody seems to disagree about that, or that they cost more and that some people like them better. Why are your panties wadded up over this? Did one of your prospective students buy one?
One doesn't have to be flying on a student certificate to be inexperienced. There's plenty of that going around with those who have flown for years and/or for many hours.

Can a student safely train in a Cirrus? Absolutely. The Navy starts those who have never flown before in a T-6A, a turboprop. But, the training is intense and continues at ever exceeding levels not even close to the civilian levels in only the T-6 before they progress.

So many pilots make it through training and then launch off on their own. Their only "training" is a flight review once every two years. Then, some go for instrument training. After that, some will do the minimum currency requirements let alone remain proficient.

My "panties" aren't in a wad over anything. I posted a link to an interesting take as well as my opinion. I then answered a few questions to clarify my thinking. Why are you so opposed to my opinion?

And, nope. None of my students bought a Cirrus nor would I be in favor of such a jump on their own without substantial time with an instructor in that aircraft. But, I am familiar with a guy in Conroe who bought a 2007 Mooney Ovation last year after he had barely soloed. I don't know the instructor who signed him off. I do know the A&P who worked on both his nose and main gear after he went off the end of the runway... two separate times. He gives good reason to believe he'll be one of those who will someday end up in the NTSB database.
 
Yeah, basically. I flew to KLNS today for lunch. Saw five Cirri. None of them crashed. What a surprise.

GA owes a huge debt to companies like Cirrus who offer a modern, fast well equipped airplane.
No argument. They put out a great product. I'd love to be flying one, especially with Plane Smart keeping three SR-22's in our hangar.
 
Yeah, basically. I flew to KLNS today for lunch. Saw five Cirri. None of them crashed. What a surprise.

GA owes a huge debt to companies like Cirrus who offer a modern, fast well equipped airplane.

+1

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
I do appreciate these folks have the disposable income. But, I would never push someone to buy more airplane than they are ready for. My students who are looking to buy, I push them toward a Skylane for a first purchase or continue to rent for a while. I compare it to investing more in their business than they are ready to risk.

I know a real estate agent who lost sales because he wouldn't sell more home than folks were capable of maintaining on their true budget. A responsible aircraft salesman would do the same.

A Skylane costs $384,500 new and goes 140 knots burning 13 gph. An SR20 costs $269,000 and goes 150 knots burning 10 gph. The Skylane gets off the runway faster and carries 145 more pounds which is more than eaten up by the extra fuel needed to feed the Skylane's thirsty engine.

Can you tell me why on earth you'd recommend a Skylane over the SR20? Don't get me wrong, I obviously love the Skylane, but you're recommending your students spend an extra $115,500 for... What, exactly? :dunno:
 
I need to scan in my ad, "The Piper Cub is easy to fly! Mary, let me show how to do a crosswind landing..."
 
A Skylane costs $384,500 new and goes 140 knots burning 13 gph. An SR20 costs $269,000 and goes 150 knots burning 10 gph. The Skylane gets off the runway faster and carries 145 more pounds which is more than eaten up by the extra fuel needed to feed the Skylane's thirsty engine.

Can you tell me why on earth you'd recommend a Skylane over the SR20? Don't get me wrong, I obviously love the Skylane, but you're recommending your students spend an extra $115,500 for... What, exactly? :dunno:
I wasn't speaking to the SR-20. Read my last post.

But, I was speaking to simply buying more airplane than the person was ready for. I was speaking of those who buy the "sexier" Cirrus over the less attractive Cessna single-engine aircraft. Nothing more.

As for the Skylane, it's a reasonable jump up from the Skyhawk because its simply moving to a slightly heavier aircraft with similar characteristics, little change in workload and a reasonable insurance cost for a low-time pilot. I also wasn't speaking to moving up to a brand new airplane. Building time and experience in an older plane before moving up makes more sense for most.
 
I wasn't speaking to the SR-20. Read my last post.

I don't see anything relevant in your last post... :dunno:

But, I was speaking to simply buying more airplane than the person was ready for. I was speaking of those who buy the "sexier" Cirrus over the less attractive Cessna single-engine aircraft. Nothing more.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a student pilot to own a single-engine Cirrus and fly it. Certainly if it's an SR22, they'll need more time and instruction prior to solo and the checkride, but that's because things are happening faster and it's a larger airplane that won't respond quite as fast as a smaller one would. But, there's nothing wrong with people buying the "sexier" airplane.

As for the Skylane, it's a reasonable jump up from the Skyhawk because its simply moving to a slightly heavier aircraft with similar characteristics

I dunno about that. IME, the 182 doesn't fly anything at all like the 172. And I think I had been flying the 182 for 2 years before I had a landing as good as the first landing I ever did in a Cirrus.

I get just a bit sick of the Cirrus-bashing that goes on amongst pilots. There is nothing wrong with the airplane. I used to think that their marketing was bad, but seriously - They are doing more to grow GA than any other GA manufacturer is. We NEED to sell airplanes to non-pilots. Cirrus also does everything possible to increase safety, and to make their planes as easy to fly as possible.

OBTW - The guy who you linked to - Read the fine print. He's a Cessna salesman. Clearly the article is very biased.
 
No argument. They put out a great product. I'd love to be flying one, especially with Plane Smart keeping three SR-22's in our hangar.

I don't see anything relevant in your last post... :dunno:



I don't think it's unreasonable for a student pilot to own a single-engine Cirrus and fly it. Certainly if it's an SR22, they'll need more time and instruction prior to solo and the checkride, but that's because things are happening faster and it's a larger airplane that won't respond quite as fast as a smaller one would. But, there's nothing wrong with people buying the "sexier" airplane.



I dunno about that. IME, the 182 doesn't fly anything at all like the 172. And I think I had been flying the 182 for 2 years before I had a landing as good as the first landing I ever did in a Cirrus.

I get just a bit sick of the Cirrus-bashing that goes on amongst pilots. There is nothing wrong with the airplane. I used to think that their marketing was bad, but seriously - They are doing more to grow GA than any other GA manufacturer is. We NEED to sell airplanes to non-pilots. Cirrus also does everything possible to increase safety, and to make their planes as easy to fly as possible.

OBTW - The guy who you linked to - Read the fine print. He's a Cessna salesman. Clearly the article is very biased.
Kent, before I address another word you say... just where in the hell in all this did I bash Cirrus??? I haven't!

Read closer, please. You beat up on me because I miss something just because I teach. Well, get your own flippin' facts straight.

Also, note the first line in my very first post. You're batting a grand on reading comprehension.
 
I don't see anything relevant in your last post... :dunno:



I don't think it's unreasonable for a student pilot to own a single-engine Cirrus and fly it. Certainly if it's an SR22, they'll need more time and instruction prior to solo and the checkride, but that's because things are happening faster and it's a larger airplane that won't respond quite as fast as a smaller one would. But, there's nothing wrong with people buying the "sexier" airplane.



I dunno about that. IME, the 182 doesn't fly anything at all like the 172. And I think I had been flying the 182 for 2 years before I had a landing as good as the first landing I ever did in a Cirrus.

I get just a bit sick of the Cirrus-bashing that goes on amongst pilots. There is nothing wrong with the airplane. I used to think that their marketing was bad, but seriously - They are doing more to grow GA than any other GA manufacturer is. We NEED to sell airplanes to non-pilots. Cirrus also does everything possible to increase safety, and to make their planes as easy to fly as possible.

OBTW - The guy who you linked to - Read the fine print. He's a Cessna salesman. Clearly the article is very biased.

Visiting a friend last fall whose hangar is at the ~touchdown point for a resort airport (Lakeway) and couldn't help but notice the difference in the noise level and (apparent) speed between the Cessnas and the Cirri. In general, a much higher-energy event in the Cirri.

If I had been sitting there worrying about a student in the pattern rather than sipping on a beverage, I would have felt much more comfortable if my students had been flying the Cessnas.
 
Isn't that true about most aircraft? :target:

Really I think that anyone who would criticize Cirrus for that reason is suffering from dollar envy. If people have enough money to buy a nice airplane more power to them. Cessnas aren't exactly cheap either.

Now you are unfairly lumping people together. It's true that there is a lack of experience and skill out there but it isn't limited to Cirrus pilots.

Hell of a lot of truth to all that.....
 
Kent, before I address another word you say... just where in the hell in all this did I bash Cirrus??? I haven't!

I'm not saying you "bash" Cirrus, but a lot of people (including many here) do - And you ARE saying that Cirri are completely unsuitable for training. And I'm disagreeing.
 
Visiting a friend last fall whose hangar is at the ~touchdown point for a resort airport (Lakeway) and couldn't help but notice the difference in the noise level and (apparent) speed between the Cessnas and the Cirri. In general, a much higher-energy event in the Cirri.

If I had been sitting there worrying about a student in the pattern rather than sipping on a beverage, I would have felt much more comfortable if my students had been flying the Cessnas.

They do tend to land on the fast side. 70 knots or so at touchdown in the SR22.

As far as noise goes, the Cirri are incredibly noisy airplanes. I think it has to do with their power lever arrangement - There's no prop conrol. The throttle(/prop) control at full power is of course full throttle and 2700 RPM on a good-sized prop (310hp to put out). As you pull back a bit, the RPM goes down to 2500 and stays at 2500 until you're out of the governing range. So, for the vast majority of a flight, the prop will be at 2500 RPM. On a prop that size, 2500 RPM is pretty noisy.
 
The Cirrus is far, far from a trainer and shouldn't be presented nor even joked as such.
:confused::confused::confused: Not sure I agree with that. Aside from the avionics suite, the Cirrus, either 20 or 22 is as simple a plane to fly as any I have been in. Neither of them have any untoward handling characteristics, neither of them will bite for slight inattentions. They are stable yet responsive. The 22 can be a bit frustrating with the trim sensitivity, but most students aren't trimmed out properly regardless what they're flying. The 22 is certainly easier to fly than a 182, and I know several people, even :eek: wimmin :eek: who learned from hour 1 in a 182. Hell, I know people who learned in a Seaplane and even....a Jet!

They are a bit faster at the top end, but you don't have to fly that fast, and landing speeds are well within the range of aircraft commonly considered Trainers. Cirrus's marketing is really no worse or more misleading than anyone else's. The fact that it does have a BRS that attracts people stupid enough to use that as a sole determinant, well, you can't hold stupid people against Cirrus really. The BRS is a good thing regardless your level of knowledge, experience, training or proficiency. It buys you a level of survival options you normally need a second engine to buy. Is the 22 a high performance plane? Yes it is, nothing wrong with training in a high performance plane from flight 1, just a matter of cost.

Fact, Cirrus 20 or 22 are fixed gear, single handle control for the engine, differential brakes on both sides. A NASA wing that is nearly stall proof and completely predictable and docile at the bottom end of the speed envelope and maintains aileron effectiveness even in the stall. It requires a concerted effort to put it into a spin. It's actually if anything, too docile to be a proper trainer. Speed in and of itself is not such a critical thing. What makes it critical is its relationship to situational awareness. As far as that goes, there is a steeper learning curve on systems than in your typical 172 or PA 28 trainer, but now, the new models of those are similarly equipped, so a comparative argument there falls pretty flat. Once you know how to work the avionics suite though, the level of situational awareness required for operations at SR-22 speeds is easy for even a student to achieve.

The only disadvantage the Cirrus's have in regards to complexity is the BRS/CAPS system, because it adds another branch in the ADM decision tree/flow chart...pick your Six Sigma term.... and ADM is the hardest thing to teach/learn. Outside of that, I'd not advise anyone away from a Cirrus as an aircraft to learn to fly in if they had the required money.

The "more money than sense" thing.....ya know, I know a good few people with a lot of money, enough that if you would use the standard of being able to buy a top end new SR-22 cash for something to learn to fly in to qualify on the "more money" part, they definitely qualify. I know one guy who could pull the cash for a deposit/down payment out of the console of his car. These people have sense for the most part, trust me. They may make decisions differently than you or I because time has a greater comparative value to them than money, but for the most part, their decisions make sense for the parameters they are made under.

Are there people who buy a Cirrus because they don't want to have to "learn all that" or "risk" because the features of a Cirrus? Sure, but Ercoupe had the same basic marketing strategy.
 
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Ercoupe 69 Fatalities (50 fatal events) in 430 accidents since 1962 (begins the NTSB database, does not count 22 years of accidents prior), Fleet size 5685 since 1940.

Cirrus 98 fatalities (58 fatal events) in 120 accidents. I'm having trouble finding a fleet size for Cirrus... anyone with Master Google Fu?

The one thing I don't like about the Cirrus is it's propensity to catch on fire post accident.
 
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I'm gonna support whatever means appropriate for them to be able to do so.

So why wouldn't you support Cirrus if your student could afford it?


Agreed. That's why I say it's not the airplane. But, the Cirrus is the sharper looking and more attractive over the Cessna whether it's the Skyhawk, Skylane or Stationair. It's also more expensive so it draws those with the money. Not necessarily those with the experience.

Ah, so ancient, slow, ugly and inefficient is the choice of the experienced, knowledgeable and prudent pilots, while modern, fast, pretty and efficient is the choice of newbies with a bank roll where their brain should be.....ok.
 
Are there people who buy a Cirrus because they don't want to have to "learn all that" or "risk" because the features of a Cirrus? Sure, but Ercoupe had the same basic marketing strategy.

So Cirrus is absolved since it adopted a 50 year old marketing strategy?

I disagree with the basic premise that the Cirrus is unacceptable as a trainer. Good Lord -- if someone has the cash to buy a G3 and start in that, have at it (Harrison Ford? -- though he didn't start hour 1 in the Gulfstream...)

But there is a point to be made that the Cirrus marketing strategy is strangely familair (Volvo? Bonanza?). The subliminal script runs thusly: "You're smart enough to pick the safest, fastest, sleekest option (and you can't waste time with all those details other people put up with...)"

"We" all should know an airplane is an airplane -- there are no shortcuts.

But the potential buyer has visions of exotic locales before lunch.

Anyway, enough rambling -- my point is -- No matter who the buyer is, some diplomatic instructor will have to help the wide-eyed wonder confront reality.

And that's the case in a Cirrus, a Cessna, or an Ercoupe.
 
So Cirrus is absolved since it adopted a 50 year old marketing strategy?

I disagree with the basic premise that the Cirrus is unacceptable as a trainer. Good Lord -- if someone has the cash to buy a G3 and start in that, have at it (Harrison Ford? -- though he didn't start hour 1 in the Gulfstream...)

But there is a point to be made that the Cirrus marketing strategy is strangely familair (Volvo? Bonanza?). The subliminal script runs thusly: "You're smart enough to pick the safest, fastest, sleekest option (and you can't waste time with all those details other people put up with...)"

"We" all should know an airplane is an airplane -- there are no shortcuts.

But the potential buyer has visions of exotic locales before lunch.

Anyway, enough rambling -- my point is -- No matter who the buyer is, some diplomatic instructor will have to help the wide-eyed wonder confront reality.

And that's the case in a Cirrus, a Cessna, or an Ercoupe.

Not absolved, but not subject of special condemnation either. As you say, it's reminiscent of any similar industry marketing. My point there is that if you want to hold Cirrus to task for their marketing, you have to hold everyone to task because it it neither new or unique. Don't single out Cirrus, they are only the most recent.
 
A Skylane costs $384,500 new and goes 140 knots burning 13 gph. An SR20 costs $269,000 and goes 150 knots burning 10 gph. The Skylane gets off the runway faster and carries 145 more pounds which is more than eaten up by the extra fuel needed to feed the Skylane's thirsty engine.
Can you tell me why on earth you'd recommend a Skylane over the SR20? Don't get me wrong, I obviously love the Skylane, but you're recommending your students spend an extra $115,500 for... What, exactly? :dunno:

Invalid comparison. The C182 should be compared with the SR22.
 
Fact, Cirrus 20 or 22 are fixed gear, single handle control for the engine, differential brakes on both sides. A NASA wing that is nearly stall proof and completely predictable and docile at the bottom end of the speed envelope and maintains aileron effectiveness even in the stall. It requires a concerted effort to put it into a spin. It's actually if anything, too docile to be a proper trainer. Speed in and of itself is not such a critical thing.

Those statement seem counter to fact. If the characteristics are as you describe, there should not be the number and type of accidents that occur.
If anything, those statements are proof that the pilots are not properly trained and should not have passed their checkride.
 
Not absolved, but not subject of special condemnation either. As you say, it's reminiscent of any similar industry marketing. My point there is that if you want to hold Cirrus to task for their marketing, you have to hold everyone to task because it it neither new or unique. Don't single out Cirrus, they are only the most recent.

I agree completely.

I suppose there is some merit to the argument that the GA industry should have learned from its mistakes, but -- on the other hand -- it's a (sorta) free market.
 
Those statement seem counter to fact. If the characteristics are as you describe, there should not be the number and type of accidents that occur.
If anything, those statements are proof that the pilots are not properly trained and should not have passed their checkride.

Ahhhh!!!, That is not the fault of the aircraft though is it?
 
I agree completely.

I suppose there is some merit to the argument that the GA industry should have learned from its mistakes, but -- on the other hand -- it's a (sorta) free market.

That's the concept we're supposed to live under at least. Think about it, if 80% of any population is stupid, who are you going to aim your marketing at? Duh... you market to the stupid. It works very well. P.T. Barnum even had a comment to that regards...
 
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