Insurance Companies and Mosaic

[Mooney Fan]

Has anyone had any experience yet with shopping for insurance under the new sport pilot privilege?

Curious how they are handling the risk of someone now flying a Cherokee or the like without a medical or Basic Med?

 

[Rcmutz]

Don’t know, but I bet we ALL get to pay, because that is what/how insurance works. Something called unintended consequences I think.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Has anyone had any experience yet with shopping for insurance under the new sport pilot privilege?

Curious how they are handling the risk of someone now flying a Cherokee or the like without a medical or Basic Med?

I haven’t seen anything much one way or the other yet, although I know some flight schools are being cautious.

My crystal ball isn’t the greatest, but I suspect it will be similar to what happened with BasicMed at the beginning. A lot of caution followed by acceptance as underwriters realize it takes more skill to fly most LSAs than a Cherokee or 172. I can also envision some lingering issues as we move into more complex, higher performance aircraft, also as there are with BasicMed.

 

[Bill]

How many accidents are due to Pilot incapacitation vs mechanicals and stupid pilot tricks? Most NTSB reports seem to be the latter. OTOH, never let a good opportunity to jack rates go to waste.

 

[wanttaja]

How many accidents are due to Pilot incapacitation vs mechanicals and stupid pilot tricks?

A typical year sees ~1500-2000 accidents, of which roughly 60% are due to pilot mismanagement or misjudgement. In contrast, most years see ten or fewer cases of pilot incapacitation.

As you can see, Sport Pilot had a very limited impact on this...

This plot shows the type of medical incapacitation for homebuilt aircraft pilots over 21 years (~4,000 total accidents). That's about 0.6% of the homebuilt accidents.

In contrast, about 3% of all homebuilt accidents involve substance impairment... alcohol, illegal drugs, prescription drugs, or OTC drugs. None of which Sport Pilot or MOSAIC affects.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[AlphaPilotFlyer]

for what it's worth, I had no problems getting coverage for an experimental C172 with a V8 engine and pay the same as a stock c172... so I don't think you should have much an issue. basic med is now common and pa28 are a known entity, I expect they would require some CFI time in type ....let us know what hear back for rates and pilot requirements.

 

[Flying Keys]

A typical year sees ~1500-2000 accidents, of which roughly 60% are due to pilot mismanagement or misjudgement. In contrast, most years see ten or fewer cases of pilot incapacitation.
View attachment 148510
As you can see, Sport Pilot had a very limited impact on this...

This plot shows the type of medical incapacitation for homebuilt aircraft pilots over 21 years (~4,000 total accidents). That's about 0.6% of the homebuilt accidents.
View attachment 148511
In contrast, about 3% of all homebuilt accidents involve substance impairment... alcohol, illegal drugs, prescription drugs, or OTC drugs. None of which Sport Pilot or MOSAIC affects.

Ron Wanttaja

Interesting. Incapacitation is a small proportion of all accidents, no doubt. However, what I’m seeing in that graph is SP are were 15% of all incapacitation accidents from 2008-2017. What proportion of active pilots did active SPs represent in that same time period?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What proportion of active pilots did active SPs represent in that same time period?

There is no way to know. The FAA tracks "active" pilots by counting medical certificates.
They do track the number of S.P. certificates issued, but not if the pilots are "active"
They do not track the number of active "private+" pilots flying under the sport pilot rules. It's possible that I am the only one in the entire United States, but I doubt it.
I would assume that the data in the chart labeled as "Sport Pilot" is actually "no medical"?
And, one would think that the likelihood of some health related accident would be higher in the population of pilots that can't get (or would have trouble getting) an FAA medical. The question is how much more likely? And, for that question, there is no data.

 

[wanttaja]

Interesting. Incapacitation is a small proportion of all accidents, no doubt. However, what I’m seeing in that graph is SP are were 15% of all incapacitation accidents from 2008-2017. What proportion of active pilots did active SPs represent in that same time period?

No way to tell, but a proportion of a small proportion is still a small proportion. It's easy to make it SOUND scary, if that's what the analyst wants to do.

Deliberate impairment is a far greater factor than incapacitation due to medical issues. In that 1998-2018 time period, there were almost three times as many cases involving alcohol or drugs.

Sport Pilot gave the FAA and the insurance agencies nearly twenty years of data on less-onerous medical tracking. It led to Basic Med, and now it's led to MOSAIC.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[wanttaja]

I would assume that the data in the chart labeled as "Sport Pilot" is actually "no medical"?

Actually, it counts accidents involving Sport Pilot eligible aircraft, for which an FAA medical was not required.

Of the incapacitation cases I identified, about 6% involved pilots in aircraft that REQUIRED a valid medical, but theirs had expired. One medical had expired 12 years earlier (flying a Cherokee).

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Mooney Fan]

for what it's worth, I had no problems getting coverage for an experimental C172 with a V8 engine and pay the same as a stock c172... so I don't think you should have much an issue. basic med is now common and pa28 are a known entity, I expect they would require some CFI time in type ....let us know what hear back for rates and pilot requirements.

I just completed my annual hours update for my yearly insurance renewal. My basicmed is good through Feb 2027. I can see in the future when asked for date of last medical putting N/A in the box.

 

[soarohio]

My partner is 82 and wanted to go sport pilot rules once his current basic med expired. According to our agent most insurance companies are issuing coverage on a case-by-case basis. Since my partner had a current flight review and 50+ hours within the past year it was not problem and did not raise our insurance rates. I have a feeling that if he was not current that they would not have covered him.

 

[Half Fast]

My partner is 82 and wanted to go sport pilot rules once his current basic med expired. According to our agent most insurance companies are issuing coverage on a case-by-case basis. Since my partner had a current flight review and 50+ hours within the past year it was not problem and did not raise our insurance rates. I have a feeling that if he was not current that they would not have covered him.

Why drop Basic Med? Sure, limit yourself to SP rules if you don’t feel safe flying at night or in IMC, but keeping Basic would probably help with keeping insurance.

 

[TCABM]

Why drop Basic Med? Sure, limit yourself to SP rules if you don’t feel safe flying at night or in IMC, but keeping Basic would probably help with keeping insurance.

At 82, I won’t want to see a doctor for much of any reason considering in most states they have to power to revoke driving privileges which would jeopardize exercising sport pilot privileges if I understand the underlying rule correctly.

 

[Half Fast]

At 82, I won’t want to see a doctor for much of any reason considering in most states they have to power to revoke driving privileges which would jeopardize exercising sport pilot privileges if I understand the underlying rule correctly.

Fair point, but at 82 it'll probably be difficult to avoid doctors. Heck, I already see three physicians once or twice a year each, and I'm only 64. I'd be dead without certain meds, and that requires regular visits and lab work. As long as I have to have a physical anyway, might as well have Basic.

 

[JScarry]

At 82, I won’t want to see a doctor for much of any reason considering in most states they have to power to revoke driving privileges which would jeopardize exercising sport pilot privileges if I understand the underlying rule correctly.

You should sit outside a busy medical building sometime and watch the number of people who exit the building and trundle to their cars using canes and walkers. You would hope that they are getting a ride from someone but nope, they get behind the wheel and drive off. If a doctor is going to revoke your friend’s driver’s license then he really shouldn’t be flying.

 

[Daleandee]

It may not help answer the question directly but I just renewed my insurance for my E-AB aircraft that I fly with a Sport Certificate. Premium increase ~5% over last year for the same hull & liability coverage ...