Instrument training - prereqs?

Matthew

Matthew

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Matthew
What's a decent prep program to do prior to actually starting instrument training? Suppose a guy wants to be as efficient as possible with the flight portion, what should or could he do on his own (right now PP flights are essentially "fun flights")? XC hours? Other flight requirements? Reading or study guides?
 
I flew a lot of the 50 XC hours under the hood with an instrument rated pilot, and we filed IFR.

This was only after I had around 8 hours dual with a CFII on how to fly approaches.

For the written I used Sheppard Air, and The Instrument Flight Manual
 
Nearly done with my IR. What I did was:

1. Got about 25-30 XC hours in. You can pick up rest during your IR training.
2. Focused on getting knowledge test under my belt and out of the way.
3. Learned what certain ATC communications mean. Com1 has a good interactive program.
4. Really reviewed weather charts etc and put it in context for IFR flying.
5. Spent time doing basic instrument attitude training on sim with CFII. Learn to scan and perform tasks, ie twisting knobs on Garmin portion of sim.
6. Do a condensed training schedule. I ran out of time due to upcoming wedding. Had weather been better ie no TS and high winds on some days I would have been done. Now I have to wait until after honeymoon.
7. Sought advice of guys on this board, ie AggieMike, Bob Gardner, Ron Levy, Loren Jones, Bruce Chien, and others.

Anyway, that's what worked for me.
 
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I've thought about one of those 7-day immersion courses vs a local CFII (I think there are a few reputable ones nearby :)).

I do know that for me, I need the repetition to get things to sink in and stick. A quickie course might work, as long as I then follow-up immediately with a lot of extra work to make it stick. I have a feeling that with a local CFI, it will take longer, but that extra time allows it to soak in. So, comparing apples to apples, there probably isn't a great difference between the two for me.

What I'm doing now is simply flying for fun. What I COULD be doing is flying for a purpose, like prepping for instrument training.
 
Continue to fly for fun, just try and fly as precise as you can -- try and nail and maintain airspeeds (+- 10 KTS), altitudes (+- 100ft) and headings (+-10deg). Also keep the aircraft in trim.

You can read up on attitude flying and instrument procedures, but I wouldn't not try and teach yourself anything in the aircraft or on a sim -- most likely all you'll do is develop bad habits that you'll have to unlearn later.
 
Do the XCs (if it makes sense, to towered airports) and use flight following.
 
Get the written done. Get FF on every flight and get used to talking to ATC. Get the instrument flying handbook and read up.
 
1. Do NOT do hood time with another pilot unless released to do so my your CFII.
2. Getting released to do hood time after "8 hours with a CFII to cover approaches" is not the way to learn instruments. The first 8+ hours of most instrument programs will be BI. As a matter of fact, you will spend most of your time on BI. BI is like the drills in sports and music. If you don't learn them correctly many bad habits will be formed that must be broken later.
3. Learn how to fly your airplane. Figure the power settings for different configurations and know them.
http://www.cfidarren.com/r-powerperf.htm
Be able to land on the center line every time.
Be able to land at the recommended approach speeds. I had one instrument student who did his landing at 90 knots... in a 172, zero flaps. He used up almost all of an 8500' runway. We had to spend the next few lessons on private pilot maneuvers and landings before we could continue with instruments.
3. Go into busy airspace and get comfortable communicating.
4. Go to faasafety.gov and take some of the free on line courses that will help you, such as IFR Regulations and the AOPA Pneumatic Systems course. Don't worry about the AOPA approach courses until you get to that point.
5. Does your airplane have a GPS/autopilot? Know how to use them... and I don't mean just the direct to function of the GPS.
6. Know the other systems on your airplane. I've had to spend instrument training time teaching pilots how to use their JPI engine monitor.

I'm sure I forgot some things and other instructors such as Ron and Bob will chime in.
 
I'm doing one of those intensive 10 day ones for my ME IR end of this month. I'll let you know what my thoughts are after it's done.
 
Study the following:

  • Instrument Procedures Handbook
  • Instrument Flying Handbook
  • Weather -- either:
    • Aviation Weather and Aviation Weather Services AC's, or
    • Chapters 11 and 12 of the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge
  • Manuals for any GPS or autopilot you have.
On the flying side, practice precision flying -- commercial maneuvers, landings, steep turns. Get all the practice you can working with ATC. Do not try to practice any instrument work which you haven't already been taught by a CFI-IA.
 
Used to be pretty common for flight schools to double up the commercial and the instrument training if that's a goal for him.
 
Pass the written and log xc pic time. Don't bother with hood time with a safety pilot right now, wait until you are building time and have learned the procedures.
GATTS and PIC were tempting to me, but ultimately I did it over 3 months and got to see more weather.
 
Oh. And read the materials Ron mentioned, (along with some ground school videos)

The IFR rating is one of those that can actually be done in near the minimum time, as long as you're familiar with the plane and flying reasonably often. A pcatd can knock out 10 hours of procedures, etc very cost effectively.
 
Is there a time limit on the written, like with the PP?

I think I need to check with a local, reputable, CFII if I can find one.
 
Matthew said:
Is there a time limit on the written, like with the PP?

I think I need to check with a local, reputable, CFII if I can find one.
Click to expand...

2 years. I used a local CFII. We just booked the plane and his time.
 
Matthew said:
Is there a time limit on the written, like with the PP?

I think I need to check with a local, reputable, CFII if I can find one.
Click to expand...

All the writtens are 24 months..

Good luck on finding a decent cfii around here.
 
Blackhawk said:
1. Do NOT do hood time with another pilot unless released to do so my your CFII.
2. Getting released to do hood time after "8 hours with a CFII to cover approaches" is not the way to learn instruments. The first 8+ hours of most instrument programs will be BI. As a matter of fact, you will spend most of your time on BI. BI is like the drills in sports and music. If you don't learn them correctly many bad habits will be formed that must be broken later.
3. Learn how to fly your airplane. Figure the power settings for different configurations and know them.
http://www.cfidarren.com/r-powerperf.htm
Be able to land on the center line every time.
Be able to land at the recommended approach speeds. I had one instrument student who did his landing at 90 knots... in a 172, zero flaps. He used up almost all of an 8500' runway. We had to spend the next few lessons on private pilot maneuvers and landings before we could continue with instruments.
3. Go into busy airspace and get comfortable communicating.
4. Go to faasafety.gov and take some of the free on line courses that will help you, such as IFR Regulations and the AOPA Pneumatic Systems course. Don't worry about the AOPA approach courses until you get to that point.
5. Does your airplane have a GPS/autopilot? Know how to use them... and I don't mean just the direct to function of the GPS.
6. Know the other systems on your airplane. I've had to spend instrument training time teaching pilots how to use their JPI engine monitor.

I'm sure I forgot some things and other instructors such as Ron and Bob will chime in.
Click to expand...

Great advice... but also understand that item 1 and 2 are advice, and not regulatory. There is no requirement for endorsement by your CFII. But its a good idea to have their assent that you are ready to "practice" in that manner.


My experience: I did not finish the rating.

I was a student in an aviation Magnet high school as a teen, quit after two years, never got stick time. Was a flight line rat who had a commercial pilot/135 ops for a father. When I got serious about getting my ticket, at age 28, and could afford to do so... I immersed myself in part 61. Bro in law was my CFI. I read everything I could.. EVERYTHING.. I had read Kershner and FAA Commercial and Instrument texts to mastery while still a student pilot. When I took the instrument written, I also took the AGI and IGI tests, passing all. It really really helped understanding the "why and how" of the airspace, the system, the navaids and the maneuvers before taking instrument instruction from my CFII.

I started into my instrument instruction with a retired engineer who used to work in Palmdale. CFII as well as A&P and just very smart guy. We clicked. Worked on the fundamentals in an Arrow, which gave me complex time and checkout as well (club insurance rules required it to rent solo)..

I was getting very close.. I did "safety pilot" time with my bro in law CFI (who wasn't a CFII), much of it cross country, with significant time in actual, and in approaches in actual. I started running out of funding around then and lost my momentum.. Then 9/11 hit and nobody was flying easily for a few months.

Never followed up, and my flying gradually tapered off due to finances. But I will say that flying in actual (like doing holds and approaches in a layer) was a superior experience to foggles and hoods. If you get a grasp of the basics and master them first, you will be a fortunate student indeed if you can get actual instrument time during your training. Its a big confidence builder.
 
flyingron said:
Used to be pretty common for flight schools to double up the commercial and the instrument training if that's a goal for him.
Click to expand...

That's exactly how you have to do when using the post-9/11 GI Bill to pay for the training under a part 141 non-degree program. The VA doesn't consider an IR "vocational" so it has to be bundled with the Commerical. Of course, there's no requirement as to which rating you pursue first.
 
Blackhawk said:
1. Do NOT do hood time with another pilot unless released to do so my your CFII.
2. Getting released to do hood time after "8 hours with a CFII to cover approaches" is not the way to learn instruments. The first 8+ hours of most instrument programs will be BI. As a matter of fact, you will spend most of your time on BI. BI is like the drills in sports and music. If you don't learn them correctly many bad habits will be formed that must be broken later.
Click to expand...

I should edit my original post, but we didn't spend the entire 8 hours just flying approaches. Basic instrument flying was covered, and demonstrated before moving onto approaches.
 
rrmkru said:
I should edit my original post, but we didn't spend the entire 8 hours just flying approaches. Basic instrument flying was covered, and demonstrated before moving onto approaches.
Click to expand...


Either way, a lot of people are thrown into approaches too early.
 
rrmkru said:
I should edit my original post, but we didn't spend the entire 8 hours just flying approaches. Basic instrument flying was covered, and demonstrated before moving onto approaches.
Click to expand...

I can't think of an instrument student I have had, other than add-on students, who were ready for approaches in 8 hours. Just too much to master prior to that. BI, partial panel BI, A/B patterns, NAVAID tracking (VOR, LOC, BC, GPS, ADF if installed), holding, EPs. About the one exception I make to early approaches is a return to base approach if we do any of the above IMC. As ja_user wrote a lot of CFIs throw in approaches WAY too early.
Again, it gets back to basics. One of the reasons sports and music concentrate on drills is that is what you will revert to under stress. The reason the military and good CFIs concentrate on BI so much is that under the stress of trying to fly an ILS to minimums, at night after a long day with the rain pounding the airplane you will revert to what you were initially taught. If you were well grounded in BI this will be your natural fall back. Without it...
 
.the return to base approach is a good point. Even under the hood, if just vectored or read to the student as they progress.
 
ja_user said:
.the return to base approach is a good point. Even under the hood, if just vectored or read to the student as they progress.
Click to expand...

Usually I do these as demos or have them use the autopilot until I know they can handle it.
 
Matthew said:
What's a decent prep program to do prior to actually starting instrument training? Suppose a guy wants to be as efficient as possible with the flight portion, what should or could he do on his own (right now PP flights are essentially "fun flights")? XC hours? Other flight requirements? Reading or study guides?
Click to expand...

Learn how to use your trim to fly nearly hands off and be able to set trim and power for Vy and cruise climb, transition to cruise speed, an appropriate approach speed for your plane that makes mental math for timing simple and matches a published speed for non precision approach time, and how to trim and power transition from that to 1.2 Vso and landing configuration.

This is your basis for developing your instrument flying skills, it all starts there. Without good trim skills, you are sunk before you start. Long (and I mean cross continent, multi day, multi landing per day) cross countries are great for building these skills. Intercept & Fly down the ILSs under visual conditions so you can get a feel for tracking the needles and get a mind's eye picture of what the needles represent out the windshield.
 
ja_user said:
Or dummy them down, make the ils a loc and call out altitudes
Click to expand...

I've done that too. I tune/load everything then give them a "GCA" with headings, altitudes and descent rates that keeps them lined up with the approach.
 
Henning said:
Learn how to use your trim to fly nearly hands off and be able to set trim and power for Vy and cruise climb, transition to cruise speed, an appropriate approach speed for your plane that makes mental math for timing simple and matches a published speed for non precision approach time, and how to trim and power transition from that to 1.2 Vso and landing configuration.

This is your basis for developing your instrument flying skills, it all starts there. Without good trim skills, you are sunk before you start. Long (and I mean cross continent, multi day, multi landing per day) cross countries are great for building these skills. Intercept & Fly down the ILSs under visual conditions so you can get a feel for tracking the needles and get a mind's eye picture of what the needles represent out the windshield.
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on. I forgot about that one. It (trimming) really helps with altitudes. Also, memorize your profile settings for the airplane you will be using, i.e. speeds at different power settings, speeds for different climbs and descents, what power and speed you will need for approaches, holds etc.
 
Trimming is one thing I do fairly well. My first CFI really pounded into my head to the point where I was like, "Yeah, OK, trimming helps, but does it help THAT much? All I know is if I don't trim I get yelled at." I guess that training stuck.


Nailing airspeed, headings and altitude is definitely something I can work on.
 
Matthew said:
Trimming is one thing I do fairly well. My first CFI really pounded into my head to the point where I was like, "Yeah, OK, trimming helps, but does it help THAT much? All I know is if I don't trim I get yelled at." I guess that training stuck.


Nailing airspeed, headings and altitude is definitely something I can work on.
Click to expand...

I also pound in trim from day one, but if I get an instrument student who flies with a death grip we normally have to spend a great deal of time breaking this habit.
 
Blackhawk said:
I've done that too. I tune/load everything then give them a "GCA" with headings, altitudes and descent rates that keeps them lined up with the approach.
Click to expand...

That is what I like, after a proper briefing to start a nice slow intro into approaches... As we can make use of them returning to the field..


Also, to OP and everyone else.

40 hours of Simulated instrument does not equal 40 hours of Rental time, if you are budgetting this you will lose 2.-.3 on each flight while on the ground and initial takeoff. It adds up if you are doing 1 hr training flights, after the first few flights try to do 1.5 or 2hr flights if you can handle it.
 
Also, if you just fly one airplane (for training or for fun), during your training it will greatly enhance your ability to control that aircraft under the hood. Don't try to bounce around between a bunch of different ones..
 
So - trying to sum this up:

Read as much as possible (FAA Instrument Flying Handbook, FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook, others).

Get additional XC time (FF as much as possible) - how much? How much hood time? (I can't remember what I currently have.)

Get to know the airplane (handling, trim, instruments, controls, altitude/heading/power control.)

--

This is to meant just to build a base for starting IR training, not to become self-taught.

---

Edit: I just looked at GATTS (Manhattan, KS) to see what their prereqs are:

  • Pilots must have a current BFR and medical.
  • Pilots must have flown a minimum of 5 hours in the past 6 months or 15 hours in the past year
  • Pilots must have the instrument written passed upon arrival.
  • Pilots must have a minimum of 10 hours of instrument time logged before starting the course.
  • Minimal 40 hours of Pilot In Command Cross Country time are required to start training.
If someone were to use a local CFII, this seems like a decent head-start?
 
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Matthew said:
So - trying to sum this up:

Read as much as possible (FAA Instrument Flying Handbook, FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook, others).

Get additional XC time (FF as much as possible) - how much? How much hood time? (I can't remember what I currently have.)

Get to know the airplane (handling, trim, instruments, controls, altitude/heading/power control.)

--

This is to meant just to build a base for starting IR training, not to become self-taught.
Click to expand...

Add the weather books Ron Levy mentioned to your list.

And know how to work the "not corrected" altimeter questions from the written. Perhaps ask him for some example homework questions. This became a big stumbling block for me late in the training that we needed to work through. Was a great example of just memorizing answers for the written exam versus knowing how to work the problem for practical application.
 
Matthew said:
So - trying to sum this up:

Read as much as possible (FAA Instrument Flying Handbook, FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook, others).

Get additional XC time (FF as much as possible) - how much? How much hood time? (I can't remember what I currently have.)

Get to know the airplane (handling, trim, instruments, controls, altitude/heading/power control.)

--

This is to meant just to build a base for starting IR training, not to become self-taught.

---

Edit: I just looked at GATTS (Manhattan, KS) to see what their prereqs are:

  • Pilots must have a current BFR and medical.
  • Pilots must have flown a minimum of 5 hours in the past 6 months or 15 hours in the past year
  • Pilots must have the instrument written passed upon arrival.
  • Pilots must have a minimum of 10 hours of instrument time logged before starting the course.
  • Minimal 40 hours of Pilot In Command Cross Country time are required to start training.
If someone were to use a local CFII, this seems like a decent head-start?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about adding hood time, going into it.

How much xc pic time do you have now? Remember a fair amount can be captured in training. It is a good excuse to fly some solo xc and knock out a commercial requirements as well, if you need to add a few hours.
 
ja_user said:
I wouldn't worry about adding hood time, going into it.

How much xc pic time do you have now? Remember a fair amount can be captured in training. It is a good excuse to fly some solo xc and knock out a commercial requirements as well, if you need to add a few hours.
Click to expand...

I can't remember my current XC hours right now, but I definitely could use more.
 
Yeah, just do the solo requirements for comm and make sure you get a landing in farther away. Of course, this just needs to be done before the check ride. I would say that 30 hrs of xc pic would be plenty when starting IFR training, and less would be doable with appropriate planning. Remember there is a xc IFR flight that will be done as part of training, and you may want to travel a bit to get exposure to new or different type approaches.
 
Between the night solo landings and xc solo, you can add some time if needed.
 
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