Instrument Self-Study - Endorsement requirement

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
I have decided to forgo the paid route to passing my Instrument Knowledge Test (written). I plan to use the FAA provided documentation. Then I realized a knowledge gap in my plan!:hairraise:

FAR 61.65:
(3) Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or accomplish a home-study course of training on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section that apply to the instrument rating sought;
(4) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required knowledge test;

From whence do I get said endorsement once I am ready to take the test?
 
Jaybird180 said:
I have decided to forgo the paid route to passing my Instrument Knowledge Test (written). I plan to use the FAA provided documentation. Then I realized a knowledge gap in my plan!:hairraise:

FAR 61.65:
(3) Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or accomplish a home-study course of training on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section that apply to the instrument rating sought;
(4) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required knowledge test;

From whence do I get said endorsement once I am ready to take the test?
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Ask your CFI. Mine wrote the endorsement after I did a practice written exam - 100 questions from exams4pilots.org with something above an 85 I think to satisfy him. Same with my commercial.

There's also mypilottests.com and it says that it was updated with new material in September. I haven't checked exams4pilots.org.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I have decided to forgo the paid route to passing my Instrument Knowledge Test (written). I plan to use the FAA provided documentation. Then I realized a knowledge gap in my plan!:hairraise:

FAR 61.65:
(3) Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or accomplish a home-study course of training on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section that apply to the instrument rating sought;
(4) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required knowledge test;

From whence do I get said endorsement once I am ready to take the test?
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There are some online programs that (after you pass their practice exam online) will send you a written endorsement that you can take to the exam center. I don't remember the names, but you can probably find them searching the net.

Otherwise, if you know a local CFII or IGI, you can probably get them to write the endorsement if you can make them comfortable that you actually did study the stuff. That is what I did for the commercial: studied the Gleim books and got my CFI to sign me off when I was ready.
 
Sounds like the endorsement for the written (for self-study) is based on having a good relationship (tongue in cheek reference to the buddy-buddy club).
 
Jaybird180 said:
Sounds like the endorsement for the written (for self-study) is based on having a good relationship (tongue in cheek reference to the buddy-buddy club).
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Depends on the CFII/IGI. Just like anything in life. Some people are easier to get signatures from than others.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I have decided to forgo the paid route to passing my Instrument Knowledge Test (written). I plan to use the FAA provided documentation. Then I realized a knowledge gap in my plan!:hairraise:

FAR 61.65:
(3) Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or accomplish a home-study course of training on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section that apply to the instrument rating sought;
(4) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required knowledge test;

From whence do I get said endorsement once I am ready to take the test?
Click to expand...

Your CFII

In my case this is the only time I have ever been "pencil whipped". He took my word that I was ready for the exam, and signed the back of my logbook endorsing me for the test.

Once you get a ways into your training, just tell your instructor you have been studying and would like to be signed off to take the written. If he asks you to take a practice exam, that is reasonable. You should not have to jump through any more hoops than that however
 
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P.S. I bought the Gleim Instrument Pilot FAA written study book and the "Complete Advanced Pilot" by Bob Gardner. I'd recommend both of them and between the two books they offer a pretty complete package. I spent less than $40 IIRC
 
Jaybird180 said:
Sounds like the endorsement for the written (for self-study) is based on having a good relationship (tongue in cheek reference to the buddy-buddy club).
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It's normally based on the instructor's evaluation of your knowledge, which means sitting down and demonstrating that knowledge to that instructor, and probably paying the instructor for his/her time. How long will that take? Figure a couple of hours -- there's a lot of material to cover. Of course, if the instructor knows you well enough, and has personal knowledge of your learning, then maybe s/he will sign the endorsement without that demonstration.
 
I'd charge three hours to give you s knowledge test, grade it, and assuming you did well cover the few things you missed. The more you missed the more time and money.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
 
I used Gleim CD based training, pass the program and it prints the certification to take the test at any testing center.
 
Just guessing here but the requirement for an endorsement probably originated when the FAA used to administer the tests free and this cut down on the amount of tests/retests they had to do.

With the tests costing $150 or more now I doubt many students would go to take the written without being prepared enough to pass. I personally think the requirement to have permission to take the written should be eliminated.
 
Rich D said:
Just guessing here but the requirement for an endorsement probably originated when the FAA used to administer the tests free and this cut down on the amount of tests/retests they had to do.

With the tests costing $150 or more now I doubt many students would go to take the written without being prepared enough to pass. I personally think the requirement to have permission to take the written should be eliminated.
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Interesting... ok, go petition the FAA for it. Heck, the testing centers should back such a proposition.
 
Rich D said:
Just guessing here but the requirement for an endorsement probably originated when the FAA used to administer the tests free and this cut down on the amount of tests/retests they had to do.
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Their concern was more that someone who didn't know diddley would get lucky and pass it without knowing anything.
 
Ron Levy said:
Their concern was more that someone who didn't know diddley would get lucky and pass it without knowing anything.
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That's true, however that is what the Oral portion of the testing process evaluates. The examiner can easily tell if the applicant knows his/her stuff or simply memorized the material to pass the written.

Rich
 
Rich D said:
That's true, however that is what the Oral portion of the testing process evaluates. The examiner can easily tell if the applicant knows his/her stuff or simply memorized the material to pass the written.
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While that is true, the written tests material which may not be tested on the practical test (e.g., HSI's, RMI's, de-icing systems, GPS and ADF's) when the aircraft provided for the test lacks that equipment. It also requires non-computer flight planning work (speeds, headings, distances, times), which is not required on the practical tests (if you show up with a computer-generated flight plan, you don't have to do it on a whiz wheel).
 
gahh the $150 ****es me off to no end.

In totaling up the expenses necessary to finish my instrument training, about 38% of the $$ required is going to be for testing. (the written plus the fee for a DPE.)

And I need 18 more hours under the hood.

By the way, does anyone know of a DPE in the NC,SC, VA area that charges a reasonable ($300 or so in my book) fee for a checkride? The DPE I did my private pilot ride with is a nice person but the fees just keep getting jacked up. I'll probably pay more overall by going elsewhere, but thats money i'd be spending on avgas anyway.
 
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Ron Levy said:
While that is true, the written tests material which may not be tested on the practical test (e.g., HSI's, RMI's, de-icing systems, GPS and ADF's) when the aircraft provided for the test lacks that equipment. It also requires non-computer flight planning work (speeds, headings, distances, times), which is not required on the practical tests (if you show up with a computer-generated flight plan, you don't have to do it on a whiz wheel).
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And it is imperative that we have in-depth knowledge of RMIs. :rolleyes:

Honestly, at least half of the stuff on the written is completely outdated for the modern instrument pilot. There is absolutely no reason that I should be expected to know about RMIs or ADFs unless I have one installed and functional. And, if that is the case, make it a part of the practical. There are entirely too many RMI questions and not nearly enough GPS/RNAV questions on the instrument written, IMHO.

A great example of knowledge that SHOULD be on the written is how WAAS impacts alternate selection.
 
To the OP...

If you decide NOT to get a King or Gleim course with testing and endorsement provided, drop me a note. If you know your stuff you can come in, take a sample test, have a short oral discussion, and be on your way with the endorsement.
 
TMetzinger said:
Or a G-1000 airplane which gives you the same functionality. In many ways I like an RMI more than a CDI, both for VOR or NDB usage.
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When it comes to DME arcs, I teach my students in the G1000 how to fly the turn 10 twist 10 method. Then I show them the real method using the bearing pointer (RMI). Much much easier...

We did an RMI only lesson in the 727 simulator once. It was a blast. Such a simple instrument!
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
When it comes to DME arcs, I teach my students in the G1000 how to fly the turn 10 twist 10 method. Then I show them the real method using the bearing pointer (RMI). Much much easier...

We did an RMI only lesson in the 727 simulator once. It was a blast. Such a simple instrument!
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TMetzinger said:
Or a G-1000 airplane which gives you the same functionality. In many ways I like an RMI more than a CDI, both for VOR or NDB usage.
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As I said, if one is installed. But I certainly think that the "figure out the magnetic bearing TO the station" stuff could go in favor of some more modern knowledge questions.
 
Ron Levy said:
(if you show up with a computer-generated flight plan, you don't have to do it on a whiz wheel).
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I did and didn't need the whiz wheel. DUATS has been planning my flights for years and the IR ride was no different.

dell30rb said:
By the way, does anyone know of a DPE in the NC,SC, VA area that charges a reasonable ($300 or so in my book) fee for a checkride? The DPE I did my private pilot ride with is a nice person but the fees just keep getting jacked up. I'll probably pay more overall by going elsewhere, but thats money i'd be spending on avgas anyway.
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Don't come here, then. My IR ride (first time) was $400 and the re-ride was another $200. Now, there's another incentive not to screw it up the first time. :D
 
jason said:
And it is imperative that we have in-depth knowledge of RMIs. :rolleyes:
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That's not my call -- it's the FAA's, and that's the way it is until someone gets them to change it, so you must be prepared accordingly. OTOH, one might make the point that your IR isn't limited to the equipment on the aircraft in which you took the practical tests, and since there is no FAA requirement for additional training before you add a GPS, or boots, or whatever, your fundamental knowledge of those things should be tested somehow. Not saying I agree, just saying that argument could be made, and I'm not sure how I could refute that position.
 
dell30rb said:
By the way, does anyone know of a DPE in the NC,SC, VA area that charges a reasonable ($300 or so in my book) fee for a checkride? The DPE I did my private pilot ride with is a nice person but the fees just keep getting jacked up. I'll probably pay more overall by going elsewhere, but thats money i'd be spending on avgas anyway.
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Over the last six years, I've watched IR ride prices on the East Coast rise slowly from around $300-350 up to about $400. There are a few which are cheaper, but you have to hunt for them. FWIW, during that period, the FAA has mandated increased equipment requirements for the DPE's to support IACRA, so they have to pay for all that gear (including have a wireless account for airports that don't have free WiFi) somehow.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not my call -- it's the FAA's, and that's the way it is until someone gets them to change it, so you must be prepared accordingly. OTOH, one might make the point that your IR isn't limited to the equipment on the aircraft in which you took the practical tests, and since there is no FAA requirement for additional training before you add a GPS, or boots, or whatever, your fundamental knowledge of those things should be tested somehow. Not saying I agree, just saying that argument could be made, and I'm not sure how I could refute that position.
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One might make that argument, and it would hold water...if they weren't ignoring more relevant equipment in lieu of the outdated equipment. I don't have a problem studying irrelevant stuff if I'm learning about everything. But I do have a problem when I'm learning about stuff that I'll never use instead of stuff that the majority uses (or will likely use).
 
Ron Levy said:
It also requires non-computer flight planning work (speeds, headings, distances, times), which is not required on the practical tests (if you show up with a computer-generated flight plan, you don't have to do it on a whiz wheel).
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Two different DPE's in my local area required manual calcs for the flight plan (as recently as this fall). Second one says "FAA wanted to see it that way".
 
Sam D said:
Two different DPE's in my local area required manual calcs for the flight plan (as recently as this fall). Second one says "FAA wanted to see it that way".
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:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

I showed up for my instrument checkride with everything on paper...but never pulled out anything other than my ipad/foreflight.
 
You're going to need a CFII to do your instrument rating so find one and have him sign your knowledge endorsement.
 
jesse said:
You're going to need a CFII to do your instrument rating so find one and have him sign your knowledge endorsement.
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The CFII I'm planning to use want me to report with test results in-hand with a passing score. I think it's a reasonable request.
 
Are you trying to do an accelerated course? Test results in hand seems different to me otherwise
 
Jaybird180 said:
The CFII I'm planning to use want me to report with test results in-hand with a passing score. I think it's a reasonable request.
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But he's unwilling to sign you off for said test? How is that reasonable?
 
Sam D said:
Two different DPE's in my local area required manual calcs for the flight plan (as recently as this fall). Second one says "FAA wanted to see it that way".
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I'd like to see that in writing. To quote a local DPE/former FSDO and HQ ASI, "You demonstrated that ability already on the Private -- no need to do it again."
 
On the 10-day IR courses I teach, you have to show up with the passing written result in hand. Too much risk involved otherwise. If the written isn't done before class date, we book 14 days. OTOH, if we're talking a more typical local course flying twice a week or so, there's no reason not to do them in parallel.

As for what it takes to get someone to sign the written test endorsement, that varies between instructors. I'm probably more stringent than most, and require actual demonstration of knowledge in all test areas, but I'm sure there are some who'll sign you off if you show up off the street and hand then a few passing results of some commercial test prep software.
 
With commercial test prep software, if you get a few passing results you should get the endorsement from the software itself (or an instructor on staff with the vendor, a la the Kings).
 
TMetzinger said:
With commercial test prep software, if you get a few passing results you should get the endorsement from the software itself (or an instructor on staff with the vendor, a la the Kings).
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On the King software, if you pass their two dummy tests, it creates a link to a website where you will find a pdf with the endorsement carrying John Kings signature.
 
BillTIZ said:
I used Gleim CD based training, pass the program and it prints the certification to take the test at any testing center.
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Gleim online study also does this. A staff CFI calls you to see if you have any questions during and after.
 
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