Install an AHRS App on your phone -- Now.

MarkH

MarkH

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MarkH
I was just watching this Accident Case Study: Single Point Failure video on Youtube.

Basically, a Bonanza lost his vacuum pump in IMC and crashed as a result. The most horrifying thing about this accident was that it appeared to happen in 2016. Which means that there is a fair chance the pilot had the hardware for a synthetic AHRS in his pocket.

Obviously, a phone-based synthetic AHRS is a terrible system to rely on but if you, like me, carry your phone with you on every flight, then having a phone based AHRS is better than nothing. And there are free options for Android (and likely iPhone), so there is no good reason not to have the extra backup.

For Android Phones, I like Apps4av's In Flight Instruments
https://apps4av.com/in-flight-instruments-overview/
It's free and pretty simple to use.

I don't know of a good, free iPhone app (if you do, comment).

Also, it is worth the time to watch the video, this is not a replacement for a backup vacuum pump, partial panel training or even a tablet with FF, Garmin Pilot, etc. I am simply suggesting that if you have the hardware for an extra backup, you should take a moment to install the software too.
 
No, phone sensors are not meant to be used in an aircraft and are fooled just as easily as your inner ear. All the phones I've tried will go back to a straight and level flight indication after entering a steady turn. A Stratus or Stratux with AHRS should actually work for this purpose but I haven't tried one out yet.
 
Gtx345 here. Partial panel practice is key and should be your primary go to.
 
GDL39-3D or GDL50 with Garmin Pilot on the iPhone. The synthetic vision looks the same as the G3X Touch. Just make sure to have a way of securing it in a useful place. Holding it in your hand is a bad idea.
 
Grum.Man said:
Partial panel practice is key and should be your primary go to.
Click to expand...

I agree, but when given the option of having a no added cost backup, I want to carry the no-cost backup.

dmspilot said:
No, phone sensors are not meant to be used in an aircraft and are fooled just as easily as your inner ear. All the phones I've tried will go back to a straight and level flight indication after entering a steady turn. A Stratus or Stratux with AHRS should actually work for this purpose but I haven't tried one out yet.
Click to expand...

That is true, this is a highly flawed tool for use in flight, it should be used in conjunction with your knowledge from partial panel training. It is important to keep in mind that if you are in a situation where you are flying with this, you are in an emergency. And you should treat it as such.
 
Do you guys ever do PAR or VAR practice approaches? Do towers still do those?
 
MarkH said:
I agree, but when given the option of having a no added cost backup, I want to carry the no-cost backup.



That is true, this is a highly flawed tool for use in flight, it should be used in conjunction with your knowledge from partial panel training. It is important to keep in mind that if you are in a situation where you are flying with this, you are in an emergency. And you should treat it as such.
Click to expand...

If I'm in a partial panel situation, there is no way in heck I'm trusting my phone without it being tied to an actual AHRS. I'd rather not have the distraction and fly partial panel then have to reconcile the attitude indication on my phone with what's left of my panel.

Now, if I'm running an EFB app tied to a trusted AHRS and that I am sufficiently proficient with, yes, that would then become my go-to back up reference.
 
If I get in trouble? That's where I'm going. Doing practice approaches under the hood with the controller talking me down was fun.
 
dmspilot said:
No, phone sensors are not meant to be used in an aircraft and are fooled just as easily as your inner ear. All the phones I've tried will go back to a straight and level flight indication after entering a steady turn.
Click to expand...
This is the major problem with these apps, IMO...not that they don’t work for the intended emergency, but that someone doesn’t take the time to “train” on the system to know its strengths and limitations (one of which may be that it just doesn’t work). I see it a lot in the EFIS world to start with...misunderstandings about what will flag faults, misunderstandings about what level of functionality reversionary modes actually have, etc.

The bottom line is that WHATEVER your backup is, find somebody who understands it that you can train with on a regular basis to best understand it and maintain proficiency.

I suspect that the pilot in the accident Mark cited was, at one time, proficient in partial panel...but the fact that I was proficient 10 years ago, 1 year ago, or even last month, says nothing about what I am truly able to do today.
 
Many of these new-fangled devices have their own error / failure modes, and if you don't know the limitations, you're going to get the airplane in a worse attitude while you are looking down fumbling around trying to get them working right.
 
MarkH said:
I was just watching this Accident Case Study: Single Point Failure video on Youtube.

Basically, a Bonanza lost his vacuum pump in IMC and crashed as a result. The most horrifying thing about this accident was that it appeared to happen in 2016. Which means that there is a fair chance the pilot had the hardware for a synthetic AHRS in his pocket.

Obviously, a phone-based synthetic AHRS is a terrible system to rely on but if you, like me, carry your phone with you on every flight, then having a phone based AHRS is better than nothing. And there are free options for Android (and likely iPhone), so there is no good reason not to have the extra backup.

For Android Phones, I like Apps4av's In Flight Instruments
https://apps4av.com/in-flight-instruments-overview/
It's free and pretty simple to use.

I don't know of a good, free iPhone app (if you do, comment).

Also, it is worth the time to watch the video, this is not a replacement for a backup vacuum pump, partial panel training or even a tablet with FF, Garmin Pilot, etc. I am simply suggesting that if you have the hardware for an extra backup, you should take a moment to install the software too.
Click to expand...

I ain’t seein that as nuthin but a distraction to a needle, ball and airspeed scan. If I lost the turn coordinator and the airspeed indicator as well as the attitude indicator, I might say “oh well, it’s better than nuthin I guess.” Other than that I would ignore it.
 
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I saw the same video. My question was why didn't he turn around? There was VFR behind him someplace.
 
I’ve done this with the stock level app that comes preinstalled on iPhones! I held it flush to the panel and it perfectly mirrored the G1000 Atti. Took it through a few turns and everything. On latest iOS it’s coupled with the measurement app.
 
The title of this thread seems foolish in my opinion.

This may seem harsh but if you can’t fly confidently in IMC with the stuff firmly attached to your panel /full or partial then you should stay the hell out of IMC.

It doesn’t take a lot of money these days to add a significant amount of backup to pretty much any panel.

If you have little backup and you’re resorting to a cell phone to save your bacon based on the affordability then I say you’re foolish. Just stay in the clear skies and save yourself.
 
WannFly said:
Very few tower will actually offer one
Click to expand...

When they aren't busy they'll do them. They need the practice too.

Can shoot them here at Navy (but not allowed to land) or down in Waco (about an hour South).
 
What is a VAR approach...? PAR and ASR I have done both...just never seen that
 
Would be interesting to see a comparison side by side in a video. Has it been done???
 
MarkH said:
I was just watching this Accident Case Study: Single Point Failure video on Youtube.

Basically, a Bonanza lost his vacuum pump in IMC and crashed as a result. The most horrifying thing about this accident was that it appeared to happen in 2016. Which means that there is a fair chance the pilot had the hardware for a synthetic AHRS in his pocket.

Obviously, a phone-based synthetic AHRS is a terrible system to rely on but if you, like me, carry your phone with you on every flight, then having a phone based AHRS is better than nothing. And there are free options for Android (and likely iPhone), so there is no good reason not to have the extra backup.

For Android Phones, I like Apps4av's In Flight Instruments
https://apps4av.com/in-flight-instruments-overview/
It's free and pretty simple to use.

I don't know of a good, free iPhone app (if you do, comment).

Also, it is worth the time to watch the video, this is not a replacement for a backup vacuum pump, partial panel training or even a tablet with FF, Garmin Pilot, etc. I am simply suggesting that if you have the hardware for an extra backup, you should take a moment to install the software too.
Click to expand...

What happened here is not a lack of apps, but a lack of training and awareness. The electric gyro was working fine, so it seems from the video. The ability to fly an airplane using a single gyro is a requirement even at the private pilot IFR level. For an ATP rated pilot, this should have been a piece of cake.
 
I think the time it would take to decide you have a problem, then get your phone out and the app loaded, you reading and interpreting it effectively might exceed the time you have to fix the problem.
Now if you had it up and running and duct taped to the yoke, maybe.
Or, if I was battling partial panel and someone beside me could get the phone or ipad up and running, I daresay I'd be looking over at it to check things out.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I saw the same video. My question was why didn't he turn around? There was VFR behind him someplace.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen it before too. Sounds like case of get there itis and the unfounded belief that the weather would miraculously get better and clear up.
 
I’ve seen this video before and several others with a similar theme. And by that I’m not talking about the spatial disorientation. I’m referring to the inability for a pilot in trouble to admit it and to speak plain English to a controller.

I hope I’m never in a situation of panic but man if I’m ever uncertain about me being able to safely put my plane on the ground I will not hesitate to use the word emergency and I will be very clear as the nature of my emergency. I will probably even use some colorful language. I won’t ask for “the weather” at an airport. I’ll probably ask for the F’ing ceiling, because all that Charlie Brown talk concerning altimeter settings and wind direction means little and just clouds the brain in a moment of potential helmet fire.

“Center, I’ve lost some instruments that help me fly in IMC. I’m currently in VMC and I would like to stay in that VMC until I am on direct course to that best weather airport. I’d like to make a descent through the clouds with no turns if possible.” I’ve got 2 hours of fuel and am happy to fly in any direction to get to the best weather. If I can’t descend into VFR conditions I’d like vectors to a final approach course”.
 
Brent: you are spot-on!

I had a sim session where the instructor failed my vacuum system while I was on top, and I accepted vectors for an approach partial panel. Made it, but it was a little sporty.

Takeaway from him was this: don't descend into the clag until you can do it straight to a runway, preferably on a localizer. You're the PIC.

---

In my planning, I generally have enough fuel to fly to VMC, anyway, which suits me fine.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I think the time it would take to decide you have a problem, then get your phone out and the app loaded, you reading and interpreting it effectively might exceed the time you have to fix the problem.
Now if you had it up and running and duct taped to the yoke, maybe.
Click to expand...

If you are using the phone's internal sensors then I don't think the yoke is quite where you want it to be.
 
I am not instrument rated and still a new PP, but what I did is put a 2”x2” sticky Velcro fuzzy side to the back of my phone and a 2”x2” grippy side to a spot on my panel right above my DG and run FlyQ (with WingX backup in case FlyQ ****s the bed) there and it is like having another instrument on the panel. It is small so it does not block any view, right in the field of view so I am not looking down at all and includes stratux based synthetic Vision if necessary.

But I am not flying in IMC. It is only there to help in case I seriously f—- up and make bad decisions.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
I am not instrument rated and still a new PP, but what I did is put a 2”x2” sticky Velcro fuzzy side to the back of my phone and a 2”x2” grippy side to a spot on my panel right above my DG and run FlyQ (with WingX backup in case FlyQ ****s the bed) there and it is like having another instrument on the panel. It is small so it does not block any view, right in the field of view so I am not looking down at all and includes stratux based synthetic Vision if necessary.

But I am not flying in IMC. It is only there to help in case I seriously f—- up and make bad decisions.
Click to expand...

I can't tell if you are being funny or not.... I hope so...
 
I'm a big fan of backups. I even like the new tech and its ability to assist in critical situations. But I'm not a fan of portable AHRS. Portable AHRS assumes too y much. Even a commercial one like Stratus and a DIY like Stratux depend on position and continuity of position for accurate attitude reference. Fun to play with, but I'm not sure I want to rely on it even in an emergency.

OTOH, I do like the HI/HSI styles GPS course reference some portable units provide, but that's for a very specific thing. My personal issue with partial panel has always been math visualization. A standard rate timed turn requires subtraction - new heading minus old heading - and division by 3. Easy for some, but not something I particularly want to do under stress. When portable GPS like the Garmin 296 were new, they had an HSI page. That little thing made all the difference in my partial panel flight. The current track information in a panel GPS - turn in the correct direction and roll out as you reach the new number - does much the same for me. It's not the instrument. It's the numbers. Even the simple math is gone.

That said, the biggest problem I see with the video and others I've seen like it, is the apparent thinking of a pilot - in this case an ATP in a very familiar airplane - that partial panel is no big deal. A minor inconvenience and nothing more. Scarier than this one is the one in which the pilot, having already messed up the approach partial panel and safely entered visual conditions on the missed, accepts ATC vectors for another try instead of proceeding in available visual conditions to another airport.

Sorry, I don't care how good you think you are. It's an emergency and we as pilots need to understand that, if there is visual weather within range, to stay in it if we are in it or to use our knowledge, skills, and equipment to safely get to it with the least amount of maneuvering we can.
 
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Grum.Man said:
I can't tell if you are being funny or not.... I hope so...
Click to expand...
What part is a problem? I stated that I am only using it in VFR conditions and only as an aid and backup in a seriously gone wrong situation. I am flying an old 150 with no backup instruments, no VOR, and who knows when the alternator or old vacuum system will fail. I would rather have the phone EFB handy than try to orient myself in inadvertent IMC using only a turn coordinator. Let’s hope that never happens until I get get my Instrument Rating at least.

The Velcro panel mount is no different than a suction cup mount on the window like many have.
 
And you can always use the GPS speed readout to replace your ASI because ground speed is close enough.

Yes this is a joke. Yes there are people who do this.

The "instruments" on your phone might keep you alive. Or they might not. If your phone doesn't have a gyroscope, or the app isn't using it, then you might as well try to stay upright by looking at the slip/skid ball.
 
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arkvet said:
I’ve seen this video before and several others with a similar theme. And by that I’m not talking about the spatial disorientation. I’m referring to the inability for a pilot in trouble to admit it and to speak plain English to a controller.

I hope I’m never in a situation of panic but man if I’m ever uncertain about me being able to safely put my plane on the ground I will not hesitate to use the word emergency and I will be very clear as the nature of my emergency. I will probably even use some colorful language. I won’t ask for “the weather” at an airport. I’ll probably ask for the F’ing ceiling, because all that Charlie Brown talk concerning altimeter settings and wind direction means little and just clouds the brain in a moment of potential helmet fire.

“Center, I’ve lost some instruments that help me fly in IMC. I’m currently in VMC and I would like to stay in that VMC until I am on direct course to that best weather airport. I’d like to make a descent through the clouds with no turns if possible.” I’ve got 2 hours of fuel and am happy to fly in any direction to get to the best weather. If I can’t descend into VFR conditions I’d like vectors to a final approach course”.
Click to expand...

Well put. Some controllers know what a vacuum pump is and what it’s loss means. Most don’t. You have tell them what you need. One thing I might add to what you said is that some of the “I’d like to’s” could be “I’m going to.”
 
Not what I was implying at all. But yes, gps ground speed is helpful in determining time to destination for fuel calculations, obviously not airspeed on final!. And updated current winds aloft for best cruising altitudes. And ADSB traffic while cruising (again not in the pattern). And current Metars, Airmets, Sigmets, Pireps, TFRs, etc. And a clock and timer since the one in my plane is INOP. And many more. And yes, synthetic vision with extended center lines to aid in finding an airport on a dark but VFR night.

Don’t bash it entirely or make assumptions beyond what is stated. I never said it was as good as a certified G5, or even to trust it entirely, but why not have it just in case, especially when already using it for all the other ADSB In data.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
I am not instrument rated and still a new PP, but what I did is put a 2”x2” sticky Velcro fuzzy side to the back of my phone and a 2”x2” grippy side to a spot on my panel right above my DG and run FlyQ (with WingX backup in case FlyQ ****s the bed) there and it is like having another instrument on the panel. It is small so it does not block any view, right in the field of view so I am not looking down at all and includes stratux based synthetic Vision if necessary.

But I am not flying in IMC. It is only there to help in case I seriously f—- up and make bad decisions.
Click to expand...

Matthew Rogers said:
What part is a problem? I stated that I am only using it in VFR conditions and only as an aid and backup in a seriously gone wrong situation. I am flying an old 150 with no backup instruments, no VOR, and who knows when the alternator or old vacuum system will fail. I would rather have the phone EFB handy than try to orient myself in inadvertent IMC using only a turn coordinator. Let’s hope that never happens until I get get my Instrument Rating at least.

The Velcro panel mount is no different than a suction cup mount on the window like many have.
Click to expand...

Matthew Rogers said:
Not what I was implying at all. But yes, gps ground speed is helpful in determining time to destination for fuel calculations, obviously not airspeed on final!. And updated current winds aloft for best cruising altitudes. And ADSB traffic while cruising (again not in the pattern). And current Metars, Airmets, Sigmets, Pireps, TFRs, etc. And a clock and timer since the one in my plane is INOP. And many more. And yes, synthetic vision with extended center lines to aid in finding an airport on a dark but VFR night.

Don’t bash it entirely or make assumptions beyond what is stated. I never said it was as good as a certified G5, or even to trust it entirely, but why not have it just in case, especially when already using it for all the other ADSB In data.
Click to expand...

I totally get where you are coming from and you do have a valid point to some degree. However, here's where I think your logic is very much flawed. You don't have your instrument rating and you likely have done very little sim or actual IMC. I obtained my IFR this past summer. Before starting my training I was kinda like you and thought this plethora of gadgetry with pretty horizons would save my ass if the SHTF. What I learned over many hours of IFR training is that it's not easy. It's just not. Your mind and body have to be trained hard to fly instruments. You will soon realize that it can be challenging to fly using even the most trustworthy panel mounted instruments.

In your first post you say "f--- up and make bad decisions". My advice... DON'T! Don't let having some app on your iPhone lure you into thinking you've got some extra safety measure "in your pocket" or even velcro'd to the panel. Your focus should be strongly on making good decisions. Keep the iPhone in your pocket. Get the IFR rating. Understand the challenges and limitations of IFR flight. Fly a plane that is IFR capable and matched well with your skill set. Maybe you need a full glass panel and solid AP or maybe you're a stud that can hand fly a Cherokee for an hour through the soup using nothing but a vacuum AI with T/C backup. Know your abilities!

If you accidentally fly into IMC in your old 150 and you can't get back out of it using your panel instruments (working or not) then I'd say you're toast. It's the number one (wx related) killer in GA and it'll stay that way until ill prepared pilots stop "f---ing up and making bad decisions"

Good luck!
 
Matthew Rogers said:
I would rather have the phone EFB handy than try to orient myself in inadvertent IMC using only a turn coordinator.
Click to expand...
And this is specifically where I disagree. That T/C can and will save your life if you learn it and trust it. With the T/C you should be able to easily make a 180 degree turn and the airspeed will provide your pitch information. If you're appropriately trimmed for level pitch use the T/C to make that gentle (a little less than standard rate is fine) 180. Focus on T/C and airspeed. Get out of the clouds.
 
Garmin Pilot/GDL39-3D synthetic vision is amazing. If you guys don't think it could help? You must not have much experience with it.
 
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