Income and aircraft survey

FormerHangie said:
Houses aren't really investments, but they are a cost effective way of having a place to live. Seventeen years ago, we put down $71,000 on a house, and since then, we've been paying almost exactly in principal, interest, taxes, insurance, and maintenance as we would to rent a similar house. The big difference is that our $71,000 investment has grown into about $375,000 equity. In two more years, we'll have it paid in full, and we'll probably have around $420,000 in equity. After that, the house will probably just about exactly keep up with inflation, maybe get a little ahead. But, in addition to the house holding its value, we'll be able to live in it for just taxes, insurance, and maintenance. We'll be living in a nice four bedroom house, but paying for a modest one room apartment, and when I retire, we'll be able to sell it, pay cash for something smaller, and add a big chunk of change to our retirement kitty.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a GREAT investment!
 
That is, indeed, my plan. The question is whether I'll have to get rid of the plane to accomplish it. :(
Click to expand...

I guess Vermont isn't the idyllic place to live that some would have us believe?

Try to hang onto the plane. If you sell it, it will be hard to get another one of like quality and capability.
 
gitmo234 said:
Good stuff, but hard to articulate accurately. I could have a much larger airplane, and fly a lot more (or less) etc. Very interested in the results.

The good news is my wife has already said "Yeah, so when we start having kids, as far as I'm concerned the small Cessna is worthless. We'll need to upgrade to one to accommodate the family or whats the point"
Click to expand...

Is your wife wanting to fly with a newborn, crying, teething, pooping, etc? really? or how about two!? You may be getting way ahead of your self. Can you write part of the airplane off due to business??! I was able to do this which made a profound difference. Many different situations . You might be better off contacting a hip financial planner.
 
FormerHangie said:
I said take home pay, not gross. I also said earlier in the thread that my take home pay was almost a third less than what I gross.

In case you were wondering how I came with that figure, here's the details. I was thinking of a late 70's Skyhawk or Warrior, it looks like you can find a decent one in the $30,000 range. The airports within an hour of me are, in order of closest to farthest, McCollum. Charlie Brown. Peachtree Dekalb, Cherokee County, and Northwest Paulding. I did a little poking around the internet to find hangar costs, I found one T hangar offered at NW Paulding at $395 per month, and shared hangar space at McCollum starting at $500. Just to keep things reasonable, let's say $400 per month, or $4800 per year. I suppose you could leave the plane outside, but long term, the sun is going to wreck your paint and interior, and since we have thunderstorms around here, it's going to get hailed on about once every 5-7 years. I also guesstimated $3000 for an annual, oil changes, and other miscellaneous maintenance. I'm also guesstimating $2000 per year for insurance. That gets us to $9800 before we get in the air. At that outlying airport fuel is about $5 per gallon, I'm planning on 100 hours at 8 gph, that's $4000, and add maybe $60 for oil added as well. Add a $10 per hour reserve for the engine and prop, and we're at $14,860. Earlier in this thread, German guy came up with the figure of $8920 per year, with a very inexpensive hangar, running on mogas at $4 per gallon, and 80 hours instead of 100. Both our totals do not include any upgrades to radios, interiors or paint, and they don't included anything for the purchase of the airplane either.

Is that maybe a little high? Maybe a few things are, but we've left a number of things out. If I were trying to cut this back a little, getting rid of the hangar is the obvious one, and it would be a savings, but when you include the need to repaint, possible damage, and higher insurance, I'm thinking you'd not save more than $2500 per year. Oh, if I wanted to fly out of McCollum, add another $1200 per year for a hangar and $1600 for more expensive avgas.



I looked up the price of a BMW lease. They are offering a "nicely equipped" 328i for what comes up to about $5000 per year, plus tax. The promotional lease Honda has on the Accord is about $2700 per year plus tax, but that's on the base model, so at most the difference about $2300 per year. If you bought that Accord and kept it for at least 8 years, you could probably get the cost down into the low $2000s. I'm not thinking you're going to own anything with an N number for less than $3000 per year. It would get you a hang glider or paraglider with money to spare. Maybe a powered ultralight would fit in that budget as well.
Click to expand...


In your analysis you insured the airplane and didn't insure the cars.
 
somorris said:
I guess Vermont isn't the idyllic place to live that some would have us believe?
Click to expand...
Who are these "some" ? :confused:
Try to hang onto the plane. If you sell it, it will be hard to get another one of like quality and capability.
Click to expand...
Roger that. It all hinges on how much I'll have to spend to make the place desirable to someone else, and whether the association will try to stop me from renting it out. As of last year it was allowed but frowned upon by many other co-owners. I plan to be there this year for the annual June meeting.
 
azure said:
And $463.12 a month over 30 years is $166,723.20, or $66,723.20 down the toilet. Unless you are confident of making more on that $100,000 over the same time frame by investing it (which I would consider an insane level of confidence), better to just spend the $100,000 toward the house now.

Even if you go with the mortgage, at that rate property taxes can easily push you over $1000/month total housing costs anyway. It all depends on where you live.
Click to expand...

That's why mine got paid off in 7 years, even when the interest rates were over 7. And that 850/month number I never hit included property taxes.

Anyone who keeps a mortgage for the full 30 years, either overbought - or is an idiot. But I guess that's just being redundant.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
This is the exception
I bet the average house payment on here is 3-4 times that.

Greg calls it female lifestyle or whatever but Location, schools, etc play into this as well. There are a lot of things I want that I don't need with regard to my house but that is the same as a plane. I just need to be able to attain both.

There are no $850 / month houses in this area.

The flip side is when my kids move out, I will likely be able to sell my house for a half million future dollars and move into a smalller one free and clear and use the cash to help them through school if needed or towards retirement.

The only thing I think I am ****ing away is the interest which I choose not to think about. :no:

If I were single or childless, I would be in a much different location (probably downtown) and do exactly what you and Greg describe.
Click to expand...

So what I'm reading here is it's all your wife's fault. I live out of the city center and out of the burbs. And when I bought, I qualified for waaaaaaaaaaaay more house than what I could supposedly afford. Had I maxed my house like an idiot, I'd still be paying on it with no fun money left over.
 
EdFred said:
So what I'm reading here is it's all your wife's fault. I live out of the city center and out of the burbs. And when I bought, I qualified for waaaaaaaaaaaay more house than what I could supposedly afford. Had I maxed my house like an idiot, I'd still be paying on it with no fun money left over.
Click to expand...

No, wife and kids fault.
 
denverpilot said:
In your analysis you insured the airplane and didn't insure the cars.
Click to expand...

The airplane was a buy/no buy decision, the cars were as buy this one instead of that one, and for someone my age, the value of the car makes very little difference. In fact, since you brought it up, I looked at the price difference between a BMW 320i and a Honda Accord LX, the insurance difference is $180 per year. So, no, trading down from an entry level BMW to a Honda won't pay the operating expenses on an airplane. If you traded down from like a 640i Gran Coupe that you replaced every three years down to a used Accord that you kept for a long time, then you'd be able to cover that $9000 that German guy spends on his 172 per year, but is there anyone who makes $100,000 per year driving that expensive of a car?
 
FormerHangie said:
Since everyone else is doing it wrong, you'll have to show them (us) how it's done.
Click to expand...

All you have to do is read what I posted in this thread. It's not my fault if you don't follow my example.
 
Sheesh.... Who ever said a great hobby and having fun would be free?? Or even cheep?? One could probably calculate what an avid bowler spends over 30 years and come up with a big number.
 
FormerHangie said:
The numbers are there in front of you, you answered the question.
Click to expand...


Once I saw "usnews.com" and "opinion" in the URL I knew all I needed to know about your source. If you don't know if you're talking in pre or post tax dollars and are leaving large things out when doing comparisons like forgetting insurance on one thing and not on the other, you're not doing a proper analysis.
 
Kritchlow said:
Sheesh.... Who ever said a great hobby and having fun would be free?? Or even cheep?? One could probably calculate what an avid bowler spends over 30 years and come up with a big number.
Click to expand...


7e9de8f2db2efd6fd9ae487e672336e0.jpg
 
You can always rationalize not owning a plane if you dont want one. But why come on an aviation forum and talk about it if it's not your thing? Aviation is like anything else, you can spend as much or as little as you want. All motorsports are expensive but lots of people with modest incomes own airplanes, just like other people of modest means race cars or have boats.
 
Last edited:
I am still saving for my pilot training and aviation is not much different than any other hobby that requires a toy. Off Roading (Jeep, or quad), Boating they all have costs that can be as high as you can or can not afford.
 
I've noticed that people who own airplanes generally fall into one of a few categories....

Single with no kids - looking at Ed, etc.

Married with two incomes and no kids - looking at Nate (DenverPilot), etc.

Kids are grown - lots of people

I don't know very many flying families with kids. Ted come to mind as well as the POA member around here who had his Cherokee 6 totaled by hail a few years ago. He's either not replaced the airplane, doesn't post here any more or both.

We can debate whether this is an income allocation problem or a lack of family interest problem.
 
Sailing guys complain the same re: kids/family. Answer is the same, wait for the kids to grow and the wife to shrivel. Or buy something small and claim your time to use it. Same old story pilots would rather dream of stuffing an uninterested family in an unaffordable turbine then buy a single seat fun flying machine and here is the kicker, demanding the time to fly it. The last part is the biggest hurdle for our modern emasculated family myn.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Is your wife wanting to fly with a newborn, crying, teething, pooping, etc? really? or how about two!? You may be getting way ahead of your self. Can you write part of the airplane off due to business??! I was able to do this which made a profound difference. Many different situations . You might be better off contacting a hip financial planner.
Click to expand...

I havent yet looked over all the tax rules, but some of my travel is business related and reimbursed ($1.29 a statute mile) as a mode of travel, provided its cost is equal to or less than the cost of commercial travel costs including my time. I've taken it up and down the eastern shore for work, and have scheduled in my 172 to go as far as MI on work travel

I also do some charity work/501(c)3 stuff with it. Otherwise the primary would be from MD to SC, NC, MO, FL and Maine. We visit those places every year anyway
 
you're right, kids don't find airplanes particularly exciting
 

Attachments

  • piper napping sm.JPG
    piper napping sm.JPG
    38.2 KB · Views: 30
  • sleeping sm.jpg
    sleeping sm.jpg
    63.4 KB · Views: 25
but as they get older it can become an activity you can share
 

Attachments

  • student pilot sm.jpg
    student pilot sm.jpg
    101.2 KB · Views: 21
  • adelai 1st lesson-2.jpg
    adelai 1st lesson-2.jpg
    126.6 KB · Views: 18
  • adelai citabria sm.jpg
    adelai citabria sm.jpg
    93.7 KB · Views: 18
That's awesome! I took my friend and his 4 year old son for their first flight and he was fascinated. I think he was ready to throw the Tonka trucks out the window and buy airplanes
 
uummm, at the moment my ratio of plane expenses to income is infinite.
I have no net income.
I do have an airplane.
 
I set my income at $42k/year and my wife and I live very well on that amount. I do most of the work on my plane myself and only fly 50 hours a year, by choice/weather/time. So with hangar ($1800/year), insurance ($700/year), and maintenance/upgrades ($2000/year) the plane consumes 11% of the $42k. We also have no debt, so the full $42k can go toward anything we like, and we like putting 11% of it into our plane.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I set my income at $42k/year and my wife and I live very well on that amount. I do most of the work on my plane myself and only fly 50 hours a year, by choice/weather/time. So with hangar ($1800/year), insurance ($700/year), and maintenance/upgrades ($2000/year) the plane consumes 11% of the $42k. We also have no debt, so the full $42k can go toward anything we like, and we like putting 11% of it into our plane.
Click to expand...
And your airplane is no cheap 2-seater. A cessna cardinal makes for fine family transport and your numbers should be more than doable on the typical disposable income of many young families with small kids.
 
The problem with a survey like this, and perhaps this has been articulated already (I did not read all the responses) is that flying is entertainment, hobby, vacation, for many of us.

So you have to ask people how much they spend on all the above.
 
I'm married, have a 4-year old, and my wife does not work. We love using the plane for travel. (A nice Comanche). How do we do it? I have two partners in the airplane and we maintain/upgrade it meticulously.
 
Henning said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: I beg to disagree with that.:lol: once your household income reaches a certain point, you can pretty much have anything you want, and live however you want.
Click to expand...


I think that doesn't occur until 7-figures or beyond...
 
Everskyward said:
I don't know very many flying families with kids. Ted come to mind...

We can debate whether this is an income allocation problem or a lack of family interest problem.
Click to expand...

Well, my situation is different and calling us a "flying family" leaves out a few details.

Keep in mind that almost 8 years ago when I joined this place I was single. I got all my ratings when I was single, bought the Aztec whenI was single. Then (while single) I started working my ass off founding and building Cloud Nine. Then the 310 got donated. For all that time, it was single single, no kids.

Then Laurie and I got married (double income, no kids), but we did virtually zero personal flying anyway because most of our travel was Cloud Nine or for work, and that satisfied our desire for vacation trips. By the time our first child came along, the Aztec was about sold, and the 310 is Cloud Nine's plane that we rent when we need to go somewhere. I'm trying to think how many family trips we did last year, I know I can count it on one hand but I don't recall the exact number. All other flying is Cloud Nine. I suspect that, as the kids get older, we will do more family trips. I still suspect it will stay on the order of something I can count on one hand per year, maybe two hands at most.

Our newest car is 12 years old, we own a less expensive house than we could, our boat is 28 years old and paid under $5k for, we do all our own work on virtually everything with very few exceptions, we bought and paid off the motorcycles before kids, and we're smart with how we spend our money. If we wanted, we could still own a 310 today. However if we did, it would not be nearly as nice of one as the one we have access to, and it would mean cutting back in other areas. That comes down to basically working a second job, and having worked very hard when I was single to create and make that job sustainable so that now I don't need to put in 60 hours a week on top of the 40 hours my normal job expected, which is what I was doing in the early Cloud Nine days.

I guess my point being, I wouldn't call us a normal flying family with kids, which is why I didn't respond to the survey in the first place.
 
N2124v said:
Never, never, ever figure out how much you are spending on owning an airplane.
Click to expand...

Agree if you counting expenses on the plane you would sell the plane the next day. Not even going to get a number in my head :no:
Just to say I just dump 30k on the panel and AOPA insured my plane for 45 k
Smart decition? I don't think so, can I swing it and enjoy it? Heeeelll yaaa :goofy:
 
dans2992 said:
I think that doesn't occur until 7-figures or beyond...
Click to expand...

Correct, those are the people I work for and live with. Even in the mid six figures, the financial industry will let you leverage it to high sevens until they collapse the market and take everything you bought :lol:. Had a couple of those clients who still haven't recovered from 2008.

Single guy with a $50k income can afford up to a Bonanza/210/Comanche and will spend 1/3rd of their income on aviation. $30k and they can do an entry level SEL, $20k or less does an Ultralight. $70k will allow you to fly around in a 310, a Baron, or Aztec. For a cabin class twin, you need to be pulling in $120k or better, and some years it may eat 50% of that, pressurized cabin class twin make it $150k. Once you are playing with turbo props, single or twin, you need to be in the top half of six figures, and likely have it structured as a tax write off on a business.

Jets come in many flavors, but unless you're playing with fringe planes, you are looking to be in the 7 figure income territory for your small/mid biz jets on up.
 
Henning said:
Once you are playing with turbo props, single or twin, you need to be in the top half of six figures, and likely have it structured as a tax write off on a business.

Jets come in many flavors, but unless you're playing with fringe planes, you are looking to be in the 7 figure income territory for your small/mid biz jets on up.
Click to expand...

It depends on what you have. If you're flying a King Air/Commander/MU-2 of a similar vintage to most of our planes, you could easily do it in the $250-500k range, potentially lower depending on the rest of your expenses. Similar for some of the earlier jets out there. However, part of the understanding with that is that when the engines you, you buy used ones or scrap the plane.

If I was making the average income answered on here, I could afford a 421 easily. Would I choose to? Probably not, but I could.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top