In-flight cellphone use

[Morgan3820]

I made the mistake of trying a Bose headset. Unfortunately, I liked them. The Bluetooth set were of course more money. I thought about the value of Bluetooth wrt cell phone usage. Does anyone use a Bluetooth linked cellphone in flight? I'm guessing that is would have value in getting a clearance but what about other uses. I know about the FCC's thoughts on this question but that is not where I am looking to go with this thread

 

[Badger]

Many use Bluetooth to listen to music while flying

 

[Morgan3820]

Many use Bluetooth to listen to music while flying

For music, I use an aux in jack on the audio panel. I like it because it mutes for ATC traffic.

 

[N801BH]

I made the mistake of trying a Bose headset. Unfortunately, I liked them. The Bluetooth set were of course more money. I thought about the value of Bluetooth wrt cell phone usage. Does anyone use a Bluetooth linked cellphone in flight? I'm guessing that is would have value in getting a clearance but what about other uses. I know about the FCC's thoughts on this question but that is not where I am looking to go with this thread

The pilot in command determines which electronic device can be used while airborne.... Since YOU are the PIC,, guess what the answer is...

 

[txflyer]

I've never tried to make a cell call mid-air. Will it work?

I thought it bounces off too many towers or some garbage someone told me....

 

[Hank S]

When I need to call clearance, just press the button and shove the phone under the headset. Stays in place by itself. Now that I use Halos, I really miss this convenience, but the whole Halo think is worth this single little problem.

 

[Brad Z]

The Bose Bluetooth only do phone via bluetooth, not music. It's very hardly picking up clearances on the ground; cell calls have a habit of dropping when getting up over thousand feet or so.

 

[Wheels]

The pilot in command determines which electronic device can be used while airborne.... Since YOU are the PIC,, guess what the answer is...

That's true if you only look at the FARs (Title 49 of the CFR) but if you look at Title 47 which is the FCC regulations you will find this:

§22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.
Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:

“The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations.”

 

[poadeleted20]

I've never tried to make a cell call mid-air. Will it work?

My personal experience is that it generally doesn't work above about 3000 AGL due to the antenna pattern of the cell towers, but if it's left on accidentally, calls will come through below that altitude.

I thought it bounces off too many towers or some garbage someone told me....

Whatever the reason, it's banned by the FCC as noted above regardless of what the FAA says (or does not say).

 

[James331]

If you can get a signal sure.

I've used mine a few times, coordinating ground, picking up a clearance, and once to talk to tower and ground to get out of a class C airport with a dead battery.

If you need it, and use it once, its worth it IMO

 

[txflyer]

My personal experience is that it generally doesn't work above about 3000 AGL due to the antenna pattern of the cell towers, but if it's left on accidentally, calls will come through below that altitude.
Whatever the reason, it's banned by the FCC as noted above regardless of what the FAA says (or does not say).

Thanks.

Ironic the headset ads say " it bluetooth's to your cell phone!"

But we're not supposed to.

 

[N801BH]

That's true if you only look at the FARs (Title 49 of the CFR) but if you look at Title 47 which is the FCC regulations you will find this:

§22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.
Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:

“The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations.”

I have been through this several times.....

I live 2 miles from the Grand Tetons,, they are 13,700 msl.... People stand on top of them and make calls hundreds of times a day....

My plane in based at Jackson Hole Airport, 2.5 miles away and I fly right next to the Tetons daily.. Usually 3-4000 feet lower then the peaks of the mountains....

Why would the FCC allow people at 13,700msl to make calls and a guy in a plane at 9000 msl can't ???.....

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks.

Ironic the headset ads say " it bluetooth's to your cell phone!"

But we're not supposed to.

Sure we are -- when picking up a clearance or cancelling IFR on the ground at a nontowered airport, for example, and I do use it for that. But in flight? I don't need the distraction -- I have enough to do already.

 

[timwinters]

cell calls have a habit of dropping when getting up over thousand feet or so.

That's highly dependent upon the area. In some of the rural areas in Southern Missouri & Northern Arkanasas, one can talk reliably up to 5,000' & sometimes 6,000'. In more urban areas, not so much. Texts typically work higher than calls.

 

[StinkBug]

My instructor likes to joke around on the longer XC flights "I love it when you guys choose an altitude under 5500, cause my phone still works. He's mostly joking, but it's also generally true around here, at least for texting. I haven't ever tried to actually make a call.

 

[Geico266]

I use the phone all the time under 3000' AGL, texts works much higher. I really don't care what the rules are, there is no good reason not to. I use it to communicate to people on the ground I am going to meet or let my wife know when I will be home. It is a safety feature for me, and I really could care less what the FAA thinks, no different than driving and talking.

 

[poadeleted20]

I use the phone all the time under 3000' AGL, texts works much higher. I really don't care what the rules are, there is no good reason not to. I use it to communicate to people on the ground I am going to meet or let my wife know when I will be home. It is a safety feature for me, and I really could care less what the FAA thinks about me using a cell phone when flying.

Well, I suppose the bolded part says it all.

 

[farmerbrake]

In my training I used it to call my flight instructor because of issues contacting for flight following, he couldn't get me on flight aware. Also my dad (non pilot) used to to call his parents while we were flying over their house, that was a fun call lol. Both times people couldn't tell I was even in the plane!

 

[RogerT]

I use the phone all the time under 3000' AGL, texts works much higher. I really don't care what the rules are, there is no good reason not to. I use it to communicate to people on the ground I am going to meet or let my wife know when I will be home. It is a safety feature for me, and I really could care less what the FAA thinks about me using a cell phone when flying.

I never had much luck when I was up there using the cell in flight if I was over 1000 ft or so. It would keep dropping the calls. Haven't tried it down here.
That's with Verizon.

RT

 

[dtuuri]

I use the phone all the time under 3000' AGL, texts works much higher. I really don't care what the rules are, there is no good reason not to. I use it to communicate to people on the ground I am going to meet or let my wife know when I will be home. It is a safety feature for me, and I really could care less what the FAA thinks about me using a cell phone when flying.

Well, I suppose the bolded part says it all.

No, this part says it all:

I use it to ... let my wife know when I will be home. It is a safety feature for me...

dtuuri

 

[MickYoumans]

My iPhone bluetooths to my PS Eng 8000BT audio panel. I don't really use it for inflight calls, but I do have it on all the time. I find it handy for situations like yesterday afternoon when I was heading home after work. Right before I lifted off I gave my wife a quick call to let her know I was headed out and for her to expect me to be home in an hour. I also play music from my phone since the 8000BT intercom will silence the music when it receives a broadcast or I am transmitting to ATC.

 

[Geico266]

My personal experience is that it generally doesn't work above about 3000 AGL due to the antenna pattern of the cell towers, but if it's left on accidentally, calls will come through below that altitude.
Whatever the reason, it's banned by the FCC as noted above regardless of what the FAA says (or does not say).

So out another way you have used the phone in the air knowing you shouldn't have. Got it.

Well, I suppose the bolded part says it all.

Your honesty is underwhelming.

 

[Larry in TN]

I live 2 miles from the Grand Tetons,, they are 13,700 msl.... People stand on top of them and make calls hundreds of times a day....

Why would the FCC allow people at 13,700msl to make calls and a guy in a plane at 9000 msl can't ???.....

The mountains were there when the ground network was designed so the engineers planned the ground network to include phones on the mountain. They'll use directional antennas to cover the mountain with channels that aren't used again on cells within range of the mountain and directional antennas to exclude the mountain on channels that are reused again within range of phones on the mountain.

Airplanes can be anywhere. To design a system for airborne use you need to use a completely separate set of channels with much more widely spaced cells. That is what Aircell did.

Modern digital systems are much more sophisticated in how they handle airborne phones. That's why voice service drops when you get a few thousand feet up. You still have the issue, though, when the airborne phone is connected with it blocking the channel it is using on multiple adjacent cells effectively reducing the capacity of those cells. You'll see the results of this when you dial but the call won't go through or when a call is dropped even though you had a strong signal. In both cases, the cell's capacity has been exceeded.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I called on my cell phone and picked up an IFR clearance once. He said it sounded like I was calling from the bottom of a well.

 

[NoHeat]

Sometimes government regulations are relics that don't make sense any more. I wonder whether the FCC rule regarding inflight phone use is one of them. A relic from when cell tower antennas were different. Nowadays you can't usually get service at high altitude, and there's not that much traffic at low altitudes, so the rule seems pointless -- nothing is going to be overwhelmed by bug smasher phones.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

One of my captains claims he got a $500 fine from the FCC for an app automatically updating when he was above 500' AGL. Said it showed up on his Verizon bill and couldn't be contested. I, among many, highly doubt this...

I use the phone all the time under 3000' AGL, texts works much higher. I really don't care what the rules are, there is no good reason not to. I use it to communicate to people on the ground I am going to meet or let my wife know when I will be home. It is a safety feature for me, and I really could care less what the FAA thinks, no different than driving and talking.

Well, I suppose the bolded part says it all.

I like flying after a pint or two; Really takes the edge off. I don't care what the FAA thinks about it...

 

[Larry in TN]

nothing is going to be overwhelmed by bug smasher phones.

Individual cells reach capacity even without airborne phones. Airborne phones just make the problem worse as one airborne phone can block system capacity that would normally handle dozens, or as many as a hundred over large cities, of calls.

 

[James331]

One of my captains claims he got a $500 fine from the FCC for an app automatically updating when he was above 500' AGL. Said it showed up on his Verizon bill and couldn't be contested. I, among many, highly doubt this...



I like flying after a pint or two; Really takes the edge off. I don't care what the FAA thinks about it...

Leaving your cell on and drinking and fly are the same eh?

Credibility---gone

 

[denverpilot]

That's true if you only look at the FARs (Title 49 of the CFR) but if you look at Title 47 which is the FCC regulations you will find this:



§22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.

Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:



“The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations.”

FCC is well down the path of dropping their requirements.

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/wireless-devices-airplanes

They realized a long time ago that they don't give a crap. The cellular carriers overcame the engineering limitations of the original systems decades ago by having control of the phone's transmit power remotely.

 

[denverpilot]

Individual cells reach capacity even without airborne phones. Airborne phones just make the problem worse as one airborne phone can block system capacity that would normally handle dozens, or as many as a hundred over large cities, of calls.

Nope. The network just tells the offending phone to shut up. Extremely old news.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

Leaving your cell on and drinking and fly are the same eh?

Credibility---gone

Ability take a joke---gone

 

[James331]

Gotcha, the problems with context and type


So how did the FCC get his phone records and duty records to prove he used it in flight, I would think that would need to be signed off by a judge.

 

[Wheels]

FCC is well down the path of dropping their requirements.

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/wireless-devices-airplanes

They realized a long time ago that they don't give a crap. The cellular carriers overcame the engineering limitations of the original systems decades ago by having control of the phone's transmit power remotely.

They are only planning on changing the requirements for airliners with special equipment flying above 10,000' so it wouldn't affect the majority of Pilots on this board. In addition, the comment period for the proposed rule ended back in May and the FCC hasn't taken any action on their proposed rule since then (probably because of all the comments they got opposing the change).
http://www.informationweek.com/gove...flight-cellphone-ban-fights-on/d/d-id/1315830

 

[HighFlyingA380]

Gotcha, the problems with context and type


So how did the FCC get his phone records and duty records to prove he used it in flight, I would think that would need to be signed off by a judge.

He claims the FCC has sensors all over that detect if you're above 500' with an active signal.

 

[James331]

He claims the FCC has sensors all over that detect if you're above 500' with an active signal.

Ahhh, I see

If the chem trails didn't get him, it was going to be the dreaded...FCC

 

[coloradobluesky]

There is such a thing a "law nullification". This is when a law simply isn't enforced. Eventually they take the law off the books. The airlines have rules against usage that are enforced. But in a private airplane.....well.....a lot of people do it, and no one seems to mind. Is there any harm being done? Probably not.

I cant do it, my plane is too noisy! But I can use the internet and text messaging.

 

[Zeldman]

The pilot in command determines which electronic device can be used while airborne.... Since YOU are the PIC,, guess what the answer is...

Not a guess. The FCC has a regulation against cell phone use in the air. So the PIC would be in violation with the FCC.

Now that said, I have used my cell phone while the plane is running but on the ground to get IFR clearance at remote landing strips, also to call dispatch letting them know I am departing and when to expect me to reach my destination. I just shove it up under my headset and now it is a hands free device.... On landing, after clearing the runway I will call dispatch to let them now I am safely at the destination or to cancel IFR.

And from what I understand, all the problems of airborne cell phone usage is worked out. All it takes it cutting the red tape to get the rules changed.

Remember Airplane Repo, the guy used his cell phone to navigate and call someone to turn on the runway lights....

 

[Larry in TN]

FCC is well down the path of dropping their requirements.

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/wireless-devices-airplanes

That is incorrect. The proposed airborne phone use is not using the ground-based cellular network. It is using a picocell installed in the airplane and a non-cellular air-ground link from the airplane to the ground and/or satellite. The airborne picocell prevents phones in the airplane, which still must be in airplane mode when below 10,000', from attempting to connect to ground-based cells which would cause the interference already discussed.

Nope. The network just tells the offending phone to shut up. Extremely old news.

They do, unlike older analog systems, once the phone is at a high enough altitude. That is why service drops off at a much lower altitude than it did on the analog systems. The problem continues to exist when a call is made at lower altitudes.

 

[Lindberg]

There is a lot more intelligence in the cellular networks now. A phone will not connect across multiple cells, and they don't consume much channel space when not in a call. This isn't my area, but I work with folks who designed these systems and wrote some of the standards, and I'm informed that the networks aren't affected by people leaving their phones on in flight. You can tell this empirically next time you are on a commercial flight. Look around. I'll bet 50% of the passengers (and 95% of the iPhone) users never turn off their phones or put them in airplane mode. I'll cop to forgetting to turn off my Blackberry about half the time because it's usually in my bag.

 

[timwinters]

I wish Scott would see this thread and chime in as it seems there's a bit of confusion/mis-information contained herein. I think Lindberg and NoHeat have the most accurate assessments.

OTOH, I think this is left over from the analog days:

one airborne phone can block system capacity that would normally handle dozens, or as many as a hundred over large cities, of calls.

If I wasn't so lazy this morning, I'd find where Scott's already adressed this topic in older, similar threads.