Impossible turn fun...

denverpilot

Tied Down
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
55,469
Location
Denver, CO
Display Name

Display name:
DenverPilot
You’re going to want popcorn for this video and the resulting comments.

I’m not saying anything other than his misuse of terms in a number of spots, drives me crazy. He’s working (or can anyway) from a script. Words count.

I’ll also say that he’s right in some aircraft and with some pilots, and in other aircraft and with different pilots, the video is likely to be deadly.

Anyway... on with the fun! Y’all should have some entertaining commentary!

 
I don’t know the guy other than what he’s put out through the internet, but from what I’ve seen...well...my momma always taught me if you don’t have something nice to say about someone...
 
First issue I see with his experiment is who climbs out the first 500 ft at 115mph, especially with that plane, or even my plane? Vy or Vx, right? I haven’t finished watching yet. I’ll be back.

Next, it’s not a 180. It ends up being more than that.

I hate being critical, but that’s the scientist in me.

Interesting, with the discussion once he’s on the ground. I’m gonna reserve further judgement for now.
 
Last edited:
Practiced the impossible turn at altitude with my instructor many times. I know the altitude in different situations and how I would execute a return to runway. I think everyone should know that number and how to do it for the plane they fly. Also, practice, practice, practice.
 
Last edited:
the only point that i will address is that he is right about the fact that almost everyone in aviation (instructors,FAA,...) is trying to push everybody to the center of the box. every pilot should be training and learning to fly their aircraft at all places in the envelope. I don't fly my airplane to the edge all the time (well maybe I do a lot...) but I do know that when it is required I have had the training and practice to do it when I need it. perfect example, the new FAA idea of slow flight. no, students need to fly around on the edge of stall for a bit.does it need to be a part of a checkride? maybe not, but it sure needs to be done in training. can you really teach someone to get out of a spin by explaining it?
 
This is another of those "impossible turn" videos where the pilot doesn't know what he doesn't know. He's fallen into the same trap that many do: thinking it is a binary option based on altitude. It isn't. There are a number of factors that go into the decision to use this maneuver. Unfortunately, this video and others like it oversimplify the issue to the point that it becomes dangerous.

https://groundschool.com/articles/the-improbable-turn
 
This is another of those "impossible turn" videos where the pilot doesn't know what he doesn't know. He's fallen into the same trap that many do: thinking it is a binary option based on altitude. It isn't. There are a number of factors that go into the decision to use this maneuver. Unfortunately, this video and others like it oversimplify the issue to the point that it becomes dangerous.

https://groundschool.com/articles/the-improbable-turn

Didn’t you guys host a Improbable Turn video with Rod Machado a while back talking about this? Might have been SAFE or NAFI. At any rate, that was a very enlightening discussion. It gave a much more thorough treatment of the subject.
 
...my momma always taught me if you don’t have something nice to say about someone...

Which she shamelessly plagiarized from Thumper!

KCY65I.gif
 
This is another of those "impossible turn" videos where the pilot doesn't know what he doesn't know. He's fallen into the same trap that many do: thinking it is a binary option based on altitude. It isn't. There are a number of factors that go into the decision to use this maneuver. Unfortunately, this video and others like it oversimplify the issue to the point that it becomes dangerous.

https://groundschool.com/articles/the-improbable-turn

Good article. I notice though they don’t mention something I thought would also be a big factor, what the winds are doing. How much crosswind, whether you should turn into crosswind, also how much tailwind.
Wouldn’t those also be huge factors in whether one could make it or not?
 
Good article. I notice though they don’t mention something I thought would also be a big factor, what the winds are doing. How much crosswind, whether you should turn into crosswind, also how much tailwind.
Wouldn’t those also be huge factors in whether one could make it or not?
Wind is absolutely a HUGE factor. If you start the turnback away from the crosswind instead of in to it, you're probably going to end up in bad shape. That's one of the before-takeoff briefing items: "Which way will I turn?"

But the article doesn't cover everything one needs to know about the maneuver. It's more of a cautionary piece explaining why people shouldn't get their training on YouTube.
 
Last edited:
Didn’t you guys host a Improbable Turn video with Rod Machado a while back talking about this? Might have been SAFE or NAFI. At any rate, that was a very enlightening discussion. It gave a much more thorough treatment of the subject.

Yes, that was about two years ago. I've been presenting a seminar on the topic around the southeast for the past six months. I'll be presenting it at SnF on Wednesday and Friday at noon.
 
also how much tailwind.

Tailwind is another HUGE factor, not just for the turnback maneuver, but for any off field "landing". It's a quadratic relationship - double your ground speed and the kinetic energy your airframe (and you) will absorb increases by a factor of four.

Imagine you're coming in with an airspeed of 60 knots. Into a 20-knot headwind your ground speed is 40.
Turn the airplane 180 degrees and that same airspeed results in an 80-knot ground speed.
The impact energy at 80 is four times what it is at 40.

Food for thought...
 
Yes, that was about two years ago. I've been presenting a seminar on the topic around the southeast for the past six months. I'll be presenting it at SnF on Wednesday and Friday at noon.
Do you know the location? Seems like something I'd like to attend. It's been a few years since I enjoyed some good presentations or speakers at sun n fun....

to the point of the thread.....lots of critical comments. I'll just say this...if you choose to look at something with a critical eye, you will almost certainly find something to criticize. Even in the posts criticizing the guy's video. Instead, I'd suggest we look for the good,the lesson, give the benefit of the doubt...... he's trying to make a point, and sometimes we all fail to find just the right way to say things so that every listener might have the same take-aways. Also, it seems to me that it's constructive to be critical.... to look for deeper understanding...what might he actually mean and not fully be saying...or that I might not be fully understanding? What could I take away from his thesis in that super cub that I could apply to the xyz I'm currently flying? What's he missing?

My takeaways from watching the video include
  • don't be so fixed and rigid.
  • There is no one absolute altitude that defines go or no-go.
  • It's not a one size fits all kinda thing.
  • different aircraft have different capabilities
  • different pilots have different capabilities
  • don't be so quick to let yourself get pushed into the center of the box (I like the way you put it unsafervguy)
the only point that i will address is that he is right about the fact that almost everyone in aviation (instructors,FAA,...) is trying to push everybody to the center of the box.

He's fallen into the same trap that many do: thinking it is a binary option based on altitude.
I actually took his point to be quite the opposite. I didn't catch him ever saying that it is some absolute value.....or that we should all, regardless of what we fly, start using his number instead of the magic "1,000 ft". Instead I think he was just showing that it is NOT some fixed value to be afraid of.
 
Hi, Brad. At SnF, I'll be at the "Forums" (the old high school on the property) - one of the small rooms on Wed at noon, and in the big lecture room on Friday at noon.

After reading your post I went back through his video again and agree that you are correct. He doesn't make the exact binary argument. That doesn't change my position on his methods and demonstrations. His lack of coverage beyond altitude oversimplifies the maneuver. In a video like that, the fact that additional factors (beyond altitude) exist should be mentioned. General wisdom says that, it may be different for each airplane/pilot, but there is some magic altitude that exists. There isn't.
 
To me, looking at something, information with a “critical eye” doesn’t mean looking for a way to put something down, or dismiss. It means checking if the information is correct as far as one can tell, and also if it is missing important points or could be misleading. intentionally or not. It’s not just taking things as gospel.
 
The video was not meant as a comprehensive how-to on making a low-altitude 180 after an engine failure. It was to dispel the myth that it's "impossible." He demonstrated so within the first minute or so of the video. He also explains that it us something to take into consideration in training for students and experienced pilots. I know I'll be trying a few things at altitude, soon.
 
Dude has a really nice voice. He should be in radio or something.

The problem with this is you really have to be spring loaded to do one thing or another. You haven't much time to vacillate or make decisions. You're either going to try and get back to the runway or land straight ahead. I have to admit, part of my decision making will be what I"m landing in and how much it's likely to hurt.
 
Last edited:
You haven't much time to vaccinate or make decisions.

Vacillate?

Yes, the 3 to 5 second “deer in the headlights” lag is real, and in a climb attitude airspeed is plummeting throughout. By the time a pilot cranks in bank to return to the field, the airspeed may be close enough to stall speed that any increase in load factor can result in a stall/spin, and that happens with nauseating regularity. These exercises where the power loss is expected and the reaction is near instantaneous are grossly unrealistic.
 
For me it is easier to just simplify the whole thing. There are too many factors to try and make a guess even an educated one in that instant. 50 or 100 feet one way or the other matters. My current thought is if the engine quits on take off go straight forward or 30 degrees left or right. I generally turn crosswind at about 700 feet and enter the downwind close to or on pattern altitude at that point I am pretty confident I could make it back to the runway one way or the other with enough runway to get it down and stopped. I have tried it at altitude and my conclusion is you would have to be on your game to make it work.
 
I will say I liked the idea of going up to 2,000 or 3,000 feet and trying it in your specific airplane, with YOU as a pilot, to see what kind of altitude loss you sustain. Also could give you insight on your control of the aircraft in a180 degree turn at idle. I think there is some benefit to understanding this. Lots of variables are definitely left out in this video, but I took it as a discussion point that you might take up with your own CFI.
 
Here's a comment to that YouTube video that is "pinned" to the top. I suppose this is to denote its significance:

"I regularly practice these with my instructor. They arent impossible. With strong gusty winds it may be improbable. I can do them easily in a stock 172 if I have 500 agl and I'm straight ahead. I have done them from 300 ago if I'm already turned on the crosswind leg. Every pilot in any airplane should know the limits of their aircraft and what it can do. Grab a qualified instructor and get out and sweat!!"

This is a great example of how unrecognized factors come in to play. The pilot has made a generalization that he can pull this off with an engine failure at 500 feet. He thinks he has this all figured out.

He has made the common mistake of believing success in the turnback is only a function of altitude. It isn't. I'm betting he did this on a long runway, probably greater than 5000 feet. So what if the runway length was only 3000 feet? Could he still do it?
 
I will say I liked the idea of going up to 2,000 or 3,000 feet and trying it in your specific airplane, with YOU as a pilot, to see what kind of altitude loss you sustain. Also could give you insight on your control of the aircraft in a180 degree turn at idle. I think there is some benefit to understanding this. Lots of variables are definitely left out in this video, but I took it as a discussion point that you might take up with your own CFI.

I've always thought that was a BAD idea. All you learn from that is that you can reverse course in "x" number of feet at that altitude. Plus, you don't have the visual effect of the ground rushing towards you faster than you've ever seen it do that before, all while the runway may be appearing in a position near the completion of the turn that's much different than you thought it would be in, a situation that you can't possibly duplicate at 3000 feet.

The critical parameters in a video like this is that there is a climb angle with a running engine and then a descent angle with an engine out. Each of those angles is dependent on multiple variables that include density altitude, wind speed, wind direction, gross weight of the aircraft, aircraft configuration, best LD, actual engine performance and other factors. They are going to be mathematically different for virtually every flight you make, even if it's the same airplane. If your climb angle is less than your descent angle (which includes extra loss in the turn) you will never return to the same location where you left the ground.

With that in mind there there are conditions from which a successful turn back to the runway is mathematically impossible, and for the same aircraft there are other conditions for which a 180 degree turn takes you beyond the safe landing distance for that runway. So if you know that all those variables determine where you fall between those two extremes, how do you know that "X" number of feet will work all the time? Answer: you don't know! You're guessing.
 
This is a great example of how unrecognized factors come in to play. The pilot has made a generalization that he can pull this off with an engine failure at 500 feet. He thinks he has this all figured out.

I think this is a mischaracterization of what he is trying to communicate. This guy has practiced the maneuver at altitude, recognizes possible "gotchas" and admits that the likelihood of success would be significantly diminished. It's almost like saying we shouldn't practice spin recognition and recovery simply because our chances at low altitude are unlikely. It's another thing we all should practice, just in case.
 
I don’t believe any of this is untrainable. We focus on base-to-final stall-spin on the approach end via training and ACS (or at least that’s what I figured it was designed in the PTS to address/prevent), but don’t seem to focus much on the departure end other than land-straight ahead if below X. I’d like more out of my training now that I’ve graduated PPL. It’s up to me to pursue that training and not wait for some agency to adjust the ACS. It’s a license to learn. Videos like this can expand our minds. It’s up to us to ignore it, or use it irresponsibly, or put some actual equity into it to see its utility and limitations for our own lives.
 
Pretty tough to cover all aspects and conditions pertaining in a 10 minute video. I think he was try to inform people it can be done but practice is the key to keeping proficient.
 
Last edited:
Dude has a really nice voice. He should be in radio or something.

The problem with this is you really have to be spring loaded to do one thing or another. You haven't much time to vacillate or make decisions. You're either going to try and get back to the runway or land straight ahead. I have to admit, part of my decision making will be what I"m landing in and how much it's likely to hurt.

I was thinking the same thing. That to even attempt it, I would think one had to go through the plan while still on the ground, taking into account the current winds, how heavy the plane is, what minimum alt to even consider.

Then I realized too, if it happens and you have done all the preloading of briefing in your mind about how to execute, you still may have to squeeze in mayday calls on the radio. I mean if you take off and someone is landing right after, the time it takes to get to the point where you might turn back, there may well be someone on final or even have landed coming right at you. If tailwind, you might go a lot further and they need to maybe actively avoid your plane then.
 
You’re going to want popcorn for this video and the resulting comments.

I’m not saying anything other than his misuse of terms in a number of spots, drives me crazy. He’s working (or can anyway) from a script. Words count.

I’ll also say that he’s right in some aircraft and with some pilots, and in other aircraft and with different pilots, the video is likely to be deadly.

Anyway... on with the fun! Y’all should have some entertaining commentary!

The guy (Jon) in the video runs an aircraft rental and training business out of KVNC, Sarasota Aero. I've flown with him twice now I think. Think the rental place has a Cherokee, a 152 and a dual only arrow. He also does taildragger/spin endorsements in a champ.

I know he's been doing the Fly8MA thing for a while now. The other guy on the Fly8MA website (blond guy) is another guy I flew with a lot, now he's a corporate pilot somewhere. I think this is the first time I've seen his videos posted somewhere other than his own website or youtube.com. Interesting reading everyone's feedback.
 
I wish he would have initially stated that he's demonstrating in a relatively light airplane with a more forgiving glide ratio.

Also, the dude just about clipped the co-pilot side wing :eek:
 
I have practiced the impossible turn in my old Cherokee 140. 10 kt headwind, 700 ft AGL off of a 2500 ft runway, 45 degree bank. I repeated it twice. I learned a lot by doing it. I haven't done it in the Mooney yet. I think trying it for practice is a useful learning experience. I agree the video could have discussed more, but he did a decent job in the first half I watched.
 
In my humble opinion, he didn't do "a decent job" in any respect. His demonstration furthered the over-simplification that is so common. This is a high performance maneuver and the decision to attempt it is complicated. One would not get that idea by watching this video. That's why I wrote the "5 Myths" article.
 
In my humble opinion, he didn't do "a decent job" in any respect. His demonstration furthered the over-simplification that is so common. This is a high performance maneuver and the decision to attempt it is complicated. One would not get that idea by watching this video. That's why I wrote the "5 Myths" article.

Well put!
 
I don't know about all of that. After watching that video
I certainly did not make note of his altitude number...or any of the specifics...as if they were some sort of standard.
I did not come out of the experience with any sort of belief that low altitude turn backs are any less risky
etc....
I certainly didn't entertain any thought that he or anyone else could repeat that same demonstration with say a strong tailwind or some other very different condition.... or that he or anyone else could repeat the exact same thing in say, a baronfor example.

I think it's necessary to watch the whole video and notice what he said, what he actually did, and what he qualified.
also notice what he didn't say
be an "active listener" and not jump to conclusions or start formulating arguments while he's mid-sentence.
and also realize that pilots have brains, and any of us will realize that a very proficient pilot in a very capable airplane can do things that a less proficient pilot can...or a less capable airplane.

Would it have been better for you if he used a high performance motor glider with a 1:50 glide ratio, to prove his point....which I think was only that
a) it's NOT some magic altitude that happens to be 1,000FT AGL..
and b) that the viewer should go up with an instructor and explore the issue.....
 
oh...I should add
I thought it was a decent video that gives food for thought.
 
If you want to have any reasonable idea of the altitude you need to return to the runway in the event of an engine failure, you really need to practice it in your particular airplane under various atmospheric and load conditions.

For example, the other day I was practicing crosswind landings with 10 kts of wind at about a 45 degree angle to the runway and decided it was a good time to practice. The runway is a non registered 2700' x 75' grass strip used by a local crop duster, so traffic wasn't an issue. I was about 135 pounds under gross weight with a rate of climb was about 1150 fpm at 70 mph covering roughly 100 fps over the runway on climb out. The take off roll is about 500' with 2200 ft and 22 seconds of runway remaining, which puts me about 400' above the runway threshold on initial climb. In about 6 more seconds and about 600' past runway threshold I'm at 500', where I pull the throttle back and "fail" the engine.

A fairly non aggressive 45 degree bank into the wind for 225 degrees got me pointed back toward the runway and a 45 degree turn shortly after put me back over the runway, but still very high, meaning I had to *aggressively* slip to lose enough altitude and energy to touch down and roll out in the remaining runway length. I touched down with about 800 feet of hundred feet of runway left, so there is was some margin left, but the risk was very much running off the end of the runway, not landing short.

On a cold day and light on fuel, I'd be at 500' much closer to the runway threshold and I'm not sure I could slip enough to make the runway. As it was, I was high enough that had I been any higher, I'd have made a teardrop turn to roll out into the wind half way down the runway and land into the wind using the last half to one third of the runway.

At my home field it's an entirely different story as the runway is only 1800' long. The same 225/45 degree maneuvering would leave me touching down in the trees and creek off the far end of the runway. The tailwind component aggravates the situation but the important takeaway is to understand that continuing straight ahead, losing roughly 20 fps, and increasing the distance from the runway for about 5-7 seconds is essential to make the 500' turn doable at my home field.

-----

I also own a Piper Pacer. It is an *entirely* different story. Even with VGs and Sullivan tips, the take off distance at 100 or so pounds under gross weight is about 700 ft and rate of climb is about 800 fpm (13 fps) at a faster 84 mph (125 fps). That leaves me crossing the end of the 2700 ft runway about 16 seconds after liftoff at only about 210 ft over the threshold. It takes another 23 seconds before I reach 500', at a point roughly 2800' past the end of the runway. The short wing and higher weight equate to a steeper glide angle and the challenge here is to make the required 225 and 45 degree turns while still having enough altitude to make the runway. In order to make the "same" 500' turn, you need to immediately decide you are making the turn and then make a more aggressive bank to 60 degrees.

At my home field, where I would now be 3700' past the end of the runway by the time I get to 500', making the runway really isn't an option and I'm instead far better off landing straight ahead or even doing a 360 degree turn into one of the fields beyond the trees off the end of the runway or below me.
 
Back
Top