Impossible to find CFIIs

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by murphey, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    [rant on]

    Locally (Denver area) it's impossible to find a quality CFII. As soon as they've got the hours, out the door to fly the big stuff. I've talked with 2 flight school owners, they aint happy either, because they're losing business because they can't keep CFIIs around. Any part-time CFIIs I'd fly with are completely booked. I took the next 4 months off to finish the Instrument and possibly the Commercial. Looks like I'll go back to work - the ratings aren't going to happen in the near future, if at all.

    Definition of quality CFII - I don't consider the FOI an indication of quality teaching, or candidly, any level of teaching. A good teacher recognizes the problem, diagnoses the problem, identifies solutions to the problem and works with the student to resolve the problem.

    Please don't suggest PIC or similar - I don't learn well in that type of training.

    thank you, I feel better now.

    [rant off]
     
  2. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Issues seem to abound nationwide right now when it comes quality flight training and the availability of CFIs and DPEs. Hopefully it’ll work out for you.
     
  3. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    What makes this even funnier, is both schools are begging me to get my CFI and teach for them, since I've been teaching (computer science) to adults for 30+ years, understand how to teach and have no interest in flying big iron (not to mention I'm too old). But they can't get me thru the instrument which is the first hurdle. I thought about doing the commercial now, filling in the instrument when possible but still can't find a good CFI for it.

    Nate....not only is your life screwed up right now, it's playing havoc with mine!
     
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  4. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I've got a DPE that's been waiting for 10 years for my checkride....and reminds me of it everytime I see him. (we're based at the same airport)
     
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  5. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    If you can figure out how to fix spinal cord issues, I’ll finish mine. Hahaha. :)
     
  6. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Go to a pilot mill and be done with it.
     
  7. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    duct tape?
     
  8. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    "Please don't suggest PIC or similar - I don't learn well in that type of training."
     
  9. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    OK.. go to Lufthansa then, or OSU.... unless you are looking to be spoon fed a cert.
     
  10. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Why be snarky?
     
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  11. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    Ask around for CFII's that have moved on but are still current and looking for side jobs.
     
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  12. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Use a bad CFII...build your own lesson plans, brief him on the lessons, and go fly.
     
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  13. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    First time visit to PoA? :rolleyes:
     
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  14. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    Some CFIIs aren't at flight schools. But they can be hard to find. I found an excellent CFII at my place of work through the grapevine at the airport. I didn't even know he was a pilot and club plane owner, much less a CFII on the side. He was a terrific instructor. He hated doing primary instruction, and did instrument instruction only with people he trusted to be serious. Since we were colleagues at work, he took a chance on teaching me in my own plane, and it turned out to be a great experience. We did a bunch of actual IFR during training while flying all over the northeast, so that I would be ready not only to pass the checkride, but to use my rating after.
     
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  15. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    No.

    How does that justify your behavior? I believe the OP posted a legitimate concern, and he clearly stated what kind of training he preferred.
     
  16. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    :skeptical:



    Are you trying to be serious? I know not of this.


    And just as a side note, “behavior” is not written word. Behavior is a physical action or motion, neither of which a written word is synonymous with.
     
  17. gkainz

    gkainz Final Approach

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    Hey Murph ... let me check with a couple of the CFIIs tonight at our club meeting (if they show up) and see if they have openings or slack in their schedule... wait - rephrase and reprioritize ... after I finish my overdue BFR (yes, I know there's no longer a "B" in there), THEN I'll see if they have openings!

    2 of them are IT geeks so that might be good or it might be bad! :)

    Will let you know tomorrow.
     
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  18. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    I empathize with you. It's a common problem, has been for years. It's always been hard to keep quality instructors in the fold, but its especially true now.

    There are career instructors around with good reputations... I can't speak to your area in particular, but they're out there. They might have wait lists.

    Across the board, the pilot shortage is bringing a ton of challenges along with it, but there are just as many opportunities, too! It's a good time to be a pilot, the training problems notwithstanding.
     
  19. Landing Fees

    Landing Fees Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’ll give it a try. Is this a just few hours and a sign-off? Your schedule has to be reasonable and it has to be economical for me (think BJC a couple mornings a week).

    So do you have your own plane? Is this just a finish up? Is your written done? Mine isn’t insured for instruction but it flies nearly the same as if it was, just cheaper.

    PM me if you want to chat.
     
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  20. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Professional Instrument Courses. Fine instructors who aren't heading anywhere.
     
  21. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    o_O
     
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  22. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I've had 2 poor CFIIs - one micromanaged, the other was unable to diagnose problems and suggest how to correct them. The 3 superb CFIIs all moved on.
     
  23. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Did you build your own lesson plans and brief them?
     
  24. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Lesson plan is irrelevant when I need explanation how to perform one of the procedures properly. I've comment (ranted!) here in the past about Flight A and Flight B. I understand why they are useful but if someone doesn't explain how to correct my mistakes, all I'm doing is wasting my time and checkbook. I'm paying for instruction, not self-loading cargo.
     
  25. texasag93

    texasag93 Line Up and Wait

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    Remember that building the required time does not have to be with a CFII (fly with another qualified pilot who is the safety pilot and it cannot be in actual). I flew about 15 hours with my CFII and the rest with safety pilots.

    There has to be 3 hours with the CFII for him to endorse you for the check ride.

    The other pilots get to build time and you do not have to pay the CFII.

    All that being said, I did mine in 6 weeks, so I was flying the crap out of the Cessna 182.

    Think out of the box and get 'er done!
     
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  26. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I don’t need the hours, I need an instructor to teach me. I have more hours under the hood and part 142 sims than required, but not the skills, and another student isn’t going to be useful.
     
  27. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Cleared for Takeoff

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    Same problem in PDX.

    For my IPC, I found that the local type-specific instructors (BPPP and PBPT) had availability. I'm not sure how that would translate into an IFR rating, but you might try people who do your aircraft type-specific training. If you're renting, I'm not 100% sure what to say -- maybe call some of the type-specific trainers anyway, maybe you'll find one with bandwidth.

    Price will probably double, but you'll get quality instruction I feel. It might actually shave time off of the rating vs going through a series of newb CFIs at the local flight school.

    Your market is probably like ours -- none of the local FBOs can even teach IFR right now, and can barely keep up with PPLs. Horizon is giving out right seats, Ameriflight was hiring anyone who can fog a mirror, and Empire will take both of their dregs into a Caravan. I'd think anyone working low-totem at a flight school was... well... not an A student to begin with. :D
     
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  28. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    I do instructing on the side, but only when I find students who are seriously interested and come prepared for each lesson. It is just as hard to find good students.
     
  29. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

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    If you can travel, I can try to make time. I might have a break in my schedule at the end of next month. I have the same attitude as @sarangan above.
     
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  30. k9medic

    k9medic Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm an aviation professional that is a CFII in helicopters and airplanes and find that if I really wanted to, I could work my butt off teaching as a side job.

    Having flown professionally for years (like others on this board) I have the ability to not only teach what the PTS says but also show how it applies in real life. This is something that most school house CFIIs lack (me too at the time when I was teaching at a local FBO years ago.)

    When I was learning, I had the benefit of my IP being a long time airline pilot who could help me to correlate. If it were not for him, I would have been lost in the books.

    This is why the OP is having trouble finding somebody to develop his skills. If you don't have an IP that can break down the material into what the student can understand and apply (you know the old RUAC thing...) then the student will never have a solid skill set.
     
  31. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Flight A and Flight B ?? I don’t recall that. What do you mean by “...doesn't explain how to correct my mistakes...”? Do they literally say nothing? Or are they just not coming with the thing that ‘makes it click’?
     
  32. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

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    @murphey I can definitely sympathize. I went through close to 10 CFII's when I got my instrument rating because no one was available, so I just flew with whoever was available. One was VERY good, but he left to fly for the airlines, luckily this was right at the end of my training so I got some good quality flying in. Two of them were more like an extra body in the plane. Didn't contribute, no useful advice, just counted towards my dual time and let me practice under the hood, basically expensive safety pilots. The rest were somewhere in between. I took three mock check-rides with three different instructors which all helped perspective-wise. Aced my checkride as a result and learned a lot in the process.

    I think the airlines are a big draw for many CFII's, however that's not necessarily the career path everyone wants. Sure if you are a 20 year old wannabe aviator, being a CFI is just a means to an end in most cases. It's a way to get to the ATP minimums and move on. But what about the people who want to instruct full time because they just love teaching and flying? I'm definitely in that boat, but the pay and benefits suck.

    Think about the cost to become a CFI (skipping instrument, which you don't "need")

    10 K for private
    7 K for commercial
    5 K for CFI initial

    22 K which is equivalent to maybe a year of community college. I don't know about you, but I've rarely met anyone with a year of college or training under their belt that has anywhere NEAR the teaching, professional or just life experience to be truly effective. Some rare individuals do, but they probably aren't going to stick around in a 30K a year job when they can double that (or way more) in the airlines. So you either get the young kid with an agenda, or you get the old salty retired guy who may have tons of experience but doesn't want to fly full time (with some other folks in between).

    Personally, if I could be guaranteed quality flight training, I wouldn't mind paying the same per hour as the aircraft rental for an instructor, or more. I read about all these flight schools who bemoan the turnover and loss of CFI's to airlines, but what are they doing to keep them? Most school's I've been to don't care about retention of their CFI talent, they just count on the "churn" to replace anyone outgoing with new students. In the end though, its the customer that suffers from these apathetic oxygen thieves who are just there to put hours in their log book.

    Would be nice if there was a way to separate out the hour clockers from the people who were really interested in teaching and flying. We have full-time career long elementary school teachers, why not full time year long flight TEACHERS not just instructors?

    I have been on an extended hiatus from flying because flight school aircraft are just unreliable and instructors are generally under-qualified where I live (with few exceptions). Maybe I'll get back into it when I can buy my own plane and get my CFI to offset the cost :). Hope things work out for you though..
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  33. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Same in computer science. I’ve had students who not only don’t read the book, but don’t buy the book, don’t do the assignments, and believe stackoverflow has the answer to everything they need.
     
  34. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Do it again.
    Do it again.
    Do it again.
    and so on, with no guidance. Self-loading cargo that I had to pay for.
     
  35. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    So what problems were you having?
     
  36. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Go fly A and B solo, with no hood, by yourself a few times. Being that you passed your private check ride and have been flying for years, you should be able to self diagnose what you are doing wrong visually. You can do constant speed climbs and descents standard rate turns visually, yes? Fly them visually, and look at your track on FF or FA. Once you know what to do visually, you can do it by looking only instruments.
     
  37. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

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    I used CloudAhoy with FF for tracking approaches and replaying them. Was very helpful to see all the specifics.
     
  38. Betmerick

    Betmerick Filing Flight Plan

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    Finally I can give everyone a "what not to do" or "what happens when" situations!

    I live just west of Indianapolis in Terre Haute HKUF. It's a great airport, Delta, and multiple runways. We even have a college aviation program. The problem is to find a CFII who can spend the time with you. His college students are priority so you might get an hour a week. Even then once he gets his hours in he leaves for the airlines. I too went the PIC route as one of their CFII's lived locally so there was no cost for housing, travel, etc. Problem with that he only had a few days here or there to train me so overall my training was sporadic at best! Also PIC charges over 3 times what a local CFI charges and in a 4 hour day you only fly about 2.4 hours!

    Currently I am on a Disapproval on my IFR checkride as I was asked to do a few things I had never been trained on by the PIC people. Did not do an arc, Back Course, non published holds, to name a few. I am clamoring to find a CFII to take me through these procedures in a correct manner. I'm not the youngest pilot around (I'm 62) so it becomes very discouraging going through this!!
     
  39. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Great idea!
     
  40. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Many years ago (20+), when Garmin only had hiker's GPS, I tossed my 12 in the back seat during PPL lessons. All the instructors were fascinated by this incredible technology that let them see how good turns, patterns, etc were. I have all the FF tracks for every instrument lesson - I need to go back and review them. Been a few years, forgot all about them.