I'm on the Homeland Security Watch List!

dmccormack said:
Yeah, but they don't need that...

"Sir, I pulled you over because your license plate is obscured..."
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They don't even need that to pull you over. What about sobriety checkpoints?
 
I personally hate those inside the border CBP check points. It's really fun trying to explain to some surly CBP agent why you are driving a rented car to Alamogordo at 2am with a wisconsin License!
 
AdamZ said:
Oh yea I'm watching you Anthony all those strange trips up and down the east coast are you smuggleling nutmeg in from Connecuticuit and cheese steaks back from Philly. Your a spice and cholesetrol runner thats what you are!!:D
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Wait till Spring when I start commuting in the Tiger again.

You are totally wrong Adam. I am not smuggling Cheesesteaks. Its SCRAPPLE they want. :D
 
wsuffa said:
CBP will be the first to tell you that your constitutional rights don't apply at the border. And I believe that they have some court cases to back that up. That is why they can demand to search your personal electronic devices, read any documnets you have, and confiscate your computer without due process or a warrant.
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Yep, border search exception is fairly clear...however, geographically, it would be pretty tough to apply a border-search exception in Kansas.
 
AdamZ said:
Guys also keep in mind that Teds search is VERY different that the average car stop search. It would be tough for the LEOs to show that Ted did anything to be legally detained or serched. There is no speeding, crossing the yellow line, swerving etc.
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Even in that case, they have no PC to search the car. I've been asked a few times to have my car searched, and denied without a problem every time. They attempt to be ambiguous when they ask, but you can just say, "I do not give you permission to search my vehicle" and be done with it.

They prod a little afterward, but standing your ground is simple.

If they decide to make up Probable Cause, then don't stop them physically from searching, and deal with it in the courts later on.
 
And the whacko that just smashed his plane into the IRS building in Austin is gonna cause repercussions for us... I'm counting the minutes until some grandstanding congress critter gets his 15 seconds with a CNN demand that the HSA "do something about those dangerous little planes"...

denny-o
 
JeffDG said:
Yep, border search exception is fairly clear...however, geographically, it would be pretty tough to apply a border-search exception in Kansas.
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Be careful: IIRC the exemption extends to a certain radius (200 mi???) from a border or point of entry. That would mean any international airport that has CBP facilities would qualify....
 
wsuffa said:
Be careful: IIRC the exemption extends to a certain radius (200 mi???) from a border or point of entry. That would mean any international airport that has CBP facilities would qualify....
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I heard 100 miles for a border control checkpoint... there is a law somewhere, but I'm not sure.

Border control is a huge thing, and you cannot stop them from searching whatever they want unfortunately.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Ron, with all due respect you need to be careful. The information above is generally incorrect. It may be correct in your state (I have no idea) but by no means is it correct for many states and does not apply to federal agents at all.

I can "reasonably" search your vehicle including aircraft without a single piece of paper signed by a judge or anyone else, and I'm not talking about "customs" type issues.

For most people, KISS is a good principle. Either go along to get along, or know just enough to know how and when to say no.
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And it only takes a fax to turn a State/Local LEO into a deputized "Task Force Officer" with full federal jurisdiction. That may be what happened here.

I can see where Ted's travel pattern would cause a hit on a pattern-recognition system and trigger a search by an agency like customs or DEA, who will either visit or work with local resources. That's altogether different from being on a formal "watch" list where you're under constant surveillance. In this case the report will probably go back to the federal agency that you appeared to be a long-haired hippie freak who flies dogs around, but NOT a dope smuggler (I have "Alice's Restaurant" playing in my head now). The way the process "should" work is that your airplane may get checked once more somewhere along the line and then you'll get whitelisted so that they won't waste time doing it again.

Ted, I strongly suggest though that at your next annual you have the airplane checked strenuously. If you ARE on a surveillance list, it's quite possible that your airplane may have had a tracking device installed covertly.

And you should let your congressfolk know that you felt harrassed, just to have the complaint on record.
 
rainsux said:
Do you happen to have LR or aux tanks installed?
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Nope, but that's on the list.

Being on a IFR flight plan, filed with FSS/DUAT/DUATS goes a long ways towards keeping you
off the target list. Pop-ups ... not so much.

Was this your filed destination? A diversion? What?
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If you look at my FlightAware page, you'll notice a string of 61 lines, and that only goes back to October. Virtually all of those are IFR, the rest are VFR with flight following. That is about 98% of my flying right there.

Leaving Phoenix headed to Liberal I was VFR with Flight Following and a discrete code (which didn't show up on FlightAware, I'm noticing). The reason? I didn't want to deal with the screwed up routing they would've given me heading out of Phoenix, and the mountains are such that your MEAs are pretty high to get over them. Much easier to just go VFR in this case. However, I still had flight following and was in contact with ATC for the whole trip.

What's now interesting (and may have contributed to this) is that in the past month I've had 3 diversions. They were all weather related, but that may have been one of the things to set up the flag. Otherwise, the rest of the flights were all as filed.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I had a feeling this would happen at some point given how much I fly my Aztec, including over long distances on a regular basis.

For the past few days I've been stuck in the western half of the country because the weather over the Great Lakes has not facilitated a return. I have a feeling that tomorrow will end up being my return day. For having flown the Aztec 350 hours in a bit over a year, almost all of which has been on a schedule, this is the first time that weather has had a significant impact in my travel plans. Really not too bad considering, and this winter has been pretty awful.

Last night, I was on my way back to Iowa and stopped in Liberal, KS for fuel. I figured I'd add another state on the map and the fuel there was a reasonable price, so good enough. I called the FBO about 10 minutes out, said I was coming in and looking for a quick turnaround. He did a good job, got the truck ready and everything. While he fueled I checked the weather and was ready to go back out in about 10 minutes. Not a bad deal. Before I got in, he told me that Homeland Security had called the FBO asking about me. Good to know I'm on the watch list.

Hopped back in, fired the engines up, and taxiied out. Then got a call from the FBO saying there was a problem with my credit card. Yeah, right... I saw a car pulling up as I was leaving. Well I know what's coming. Come back, and the Special Agent introduces himself, and explains that I'm on the watch list, leaving out I'm sure a ton of reasons. He was professional enough, so I figured I'd be cooperative.

He and his crew seemed rather convinced they were going to find drugs or other illegal items in my plane. After about 30-40 minutes of searching, all they found were clothes, dog cages, and an oxygen bottle. They didn't know what oxygen cannulas were, so I had to explain. It would really be good if they knew what they were looking at. They were rather sheepish upon completion having found nothing and said they'd tell Homeland Security everything appeared to be legit and in order.

The part that I found the most idiotic about this was that they knew I was going to be there in the first place because I had flight following coming in and an IFR flight plan going out. If I was really trying to be covert on a perfect VFR day, why would I do that? I can understand the logic about an Aztec flying a lot having some suspicion, but there are no shortage of people and companies that fly a lot. Then again, they may receive similar treatment.

Be warned - big brother is watching. I have a feeling it's only going to get worse.
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Well, Ted... that'll teach you to use a credit card instead of cash... maybe they have a watch out on your CC's...
And then they heard you had cannula's on board, and they thought it was cannabis...

Over all, this search was a joke! Obviously, you did diffuse the situation by agreeing to the search, but the principle behind it still is of great concern!
 
Dr. O said:
And the whacko that just smashed his plane into the IRS building in Austin is gonna cause repercussions for us... I'm counting the minutes until some grandstanding congress critter gets his 15 seconds with a CNN demand that the HSA "do something about those dangerous little planes"...

denny-o
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They have already been talking on the news about how dangerous and how devastating the damage from "these small airplanes"....
 
Come on everyone, you are complaining about the wrong thing here. It was Ted's duplicitous actions that were the problem. After all, puppy rescue is just a cover for smuggling and the whole country knows it. I feel much safer knowing that our towns are being actively protected from those kinds of scumbag, don't you?:D

Hey Ted, let me know which of the Northeast events you are attending this year, will you? I need to make sure I don't associate with "known terrorists"!

I am not sure I would have handled this as well, especially with the thought about shady characters wanting to gain access to the plane.
 
Aztec Driver said:
Hey Ted, let me know which of the Northeast events you are attending this year, will you? I need to make sure I don't associate with "known terrorists"!
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Now now, they clearly said that they were looking for drugs. ;)

I am not sure I would have handled this as well, especially with the thought about shady characters wanting to gain access to the plane.
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I spent the first 18 years of my life in New York City and have a decent idea of when someone's going to try to shoot me or steal something from me (at least, it's kept me alive and theft-free so far). That combined with the line guy telling me homeland security had called, I had a good idea what was going on and how it was going to go down. It went as expected.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Now now, they clearly said that they were looking for drugs. ;)
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"Well, sir, if you're looking for drugs, you're gonna have to pay for them, just like the rest of my dealer network. It's expensive to operate a twin-engine plane."
 
Trapper John said:
If they think they have probable cause, they're not going to ask, they're just going to go ahead and do it.

If they ask you to consent to a search, it means they know they don't have probable cause, and they want you to be a sucker and consent.


Trapper John
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Nice guess. Fail, but nice guess :)
 
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weilke said:
Good question. With the poor training some local law enforcement agencies have, I wouldn't have been suprised if one of their 'heroes' would have rammed the 'suspected drug-smuggler' with his squad car.

More likely, they would have called their handlers at Gestapo headquarters that the 'suspected drugsmuggler' resisted and fled. From that point on, this would have turned into something really heroic with a couple of weekend-warriors with their F16s from three states over trying to intercept the puppy-express.
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Ok..that is funny to think about. Imagine the movie rights! :D
 
tdager said:
Ok..that is funny to think about. Imagine the movie rights! :D
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I want my character played by Brad Pitt. He'll just need to grow out his hair... a lot. ;)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I want my character played by Brad Pitt. He'll just need to grow out his hair... a lot. ;)
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How about Johnny Depp? He's already done a smuggler movie...

blow_-_johnny_depp



Trapper John
 
The post I'm going to try to put in the Friday is Joke day thread is in honor of the alphabet soup folks weilding their power....
 
SCCutler said:
Guess they have sorta forgotten that last part...
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I think you're misinterpreting their statement. Take literally the mission is to preserve the freedom of the DHS, not the rest of us.
 
tonycondon said:
do you consider the searches done that resulted in drug busts as harrassment?
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If those searches were illegal, yes! The ends do not justify the means. And if it has become legal for a governmental agency to search my airplane on a whim (or on the whimsical say so of any agency) when I'm flying in inside the US then the laws need to be changed back to something a lot closer to what our founding fathers had in mind.
 
Humm, I wonder after Ted's most recent adventure if he might find himself getting "ramp checked" again B)
 
Clark1961 said:
Sorry to hear about your interrupted travels. There are lots of good folks in Kansas (I'm originally from there) but there are some real blockheads too. If you're choosing places to spend the night, you can get a really good steak in Liberal. Nothing fancy but the cut will be tender and have great flavor. Now if I could just remember the name of the place...
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Well in Russell, Meridy's is superb!
 
LearDriver said:
Ted, have you had any additional searches made on any of your flights?
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I have not. And that includes 7 times leaving and re-entering the US since February when that happened.

So, they may still be watching me, but they probably figure that reading my posts on PoA and the Cloud Nine blog and Facebook page give enough details about what I'm doing. :D
 
I would rather doubt you are of much interest to them any more. You obviously peaked their interest at one time based on the pattern of your flying. Once they become convinced of what you are doing as being a legitimate operation they go away.

I had an owner that I fly try to bring back some agricultural items from Europe one time. He didn't get it pre approved through the customs and ag people. So it became a nightmare customs stop in GTF. Mental note, never clear customs in GTF. The customs guys thought it was some type of drug bust they were going to be making. It took several hours to get the problem sorted out. To have ths happen after 12 hours of flying when you have still another 6 hours to go is really draining and annoying.

The next several trips that I did with this guy that involved customs was very involved. We had to completely unload the airplane, every bag was searched, every briefcase was searched, they did the nuclear detector, swabbed all the bags for residue, a three man team went through the airplane, and they ran the drug dog through the airplane and baggage. Each one of the crew and passengers was separated and had a personal interview. This went on the next three times that I cleared customs with this guy on board.
The interesting part was that the first time we had the problem coming in from Europe we were in a different airplane. The rest of the times we were in our smaller plane. Each aircraft is registered to a different owner. So they had to have tagged the individuals and been watching and waiting.
Since this incident happened, I have cleared customs numerous times and it goes through very smoothly. I would think that in your case, any interest that they had in you may have passed once they figured out that you are legit. You were going to get investigated that night whether you returned to the ramp or continued to the destination.
 
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LearDriver said:
I would rather doubt you are of much interest to them any more. You obviously peaked their interest at one time based on the pattern of your flying. Once they become convinced of what you are doing as being a legitimate operation they go away.
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And that was my thinking at the time. I was in a situation where I could have easily said "You don't have a warrant, and I need to get to my destination so I can get some sleep." It was a good time for me to get stopped since I didn't have dogs in the plane (the search they did would have been a nightmare if I was loaded), really wasn't on a schedule, I just wanted to get to my destination so I could sleep. Since they didn't find anything, I figured that the worst would be I'd get one more thorough search and that would be it.

I had an owner that I fly try to bring back some agricultural items from Europe one time. He didn't get it pre approved through the customs and ag people. So it became a nightmare customs stop in GTF. Mental note, never clear customs in GTF. The customs guys thought it was some type of drug bust they were going to be making. It took several hours to get the problem sorted out. To have ths happen after 12 hours of flying when you have still another 6 hours to go is really draining and annoying.

The next several trips that I did with this guy that involved customs was very involved. We had to completely unload the airplane, every bag was searched, every briefcase was searched, they did the nuclear detector, swabbed all the bags for residue, a three man team went through the airplane, and they ran the drug dog through the airplane and baggage. Each one of the crew and passengers was separated and had a personal interview. This went on the next three times that I cleared customs with this guy on board.
The interesting part was that the first time we had the problem coming in from Europe we were in a different airplane. The rest of the times we were in our smaller plane. Each aircraft is registered to a different owner. So they had to have tagged the individuals and been watching and waiting.
Since this incident happened, I have cleared customs numerous times and it goes through very smoothly.
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I was wondering how my first customs crossing was going to be, and especially how they were going to be when I had dogs and cats on board. I, of course, follow the requirements, but when I'm bringing animals back I make sure to also call them well in advance, and repeatedly, and tell them I'm coming with animals to make sure they understand and know what I'm doing. It has always gone quickly and smoothly. What you describe sounds like what I would expect if they looked through the plane and found something that clearly needed to be declared and wasn't.

Canada gave me a similar experience, but to a much lesser degree. One of the CANpass officers I spoke with on a trip didn't like what I was doing and I had an argument with him regarding it before he decided to let me in, but told me I needed to get some additional permits. Well, the trip after that, I actually had officers come up, look through the plane (briefly) and ask me questions. For Canada, that's pretty rare. Done one trip since then without issue. After doing all the research that he told me to do, I found out that I, in fact, was correct and didn't need the permits. I think I just got a bad egg.
 
There is no "list", how could there be a list? Why do they need a list when every one of us. our kids, our dogs, is on it?

This is the change we voted for, an all encompassing government. It will not be too long into the future before, for national security reasons, every flight, even training flights, will require a flight plan that includes the reason for the trip.

Refuse a search, ya right, see where that gets you.

John
 
John Baker said:
There is no "list", how could there be a list? Why do they need a list when every one of us. our kids, our dogs, is on it?

This is the change we voted for, an all encompassing government. It will not be too long into the future before, for national security reasons, every flight, even training flights, will require a flight plan that includes the reason for the trip.

Refuse a search, ya right, see where that gets you.

John
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Actually, most of this got stuff got put in with a President and Congress that got elected on the promise of less government. Sorry to spoil a good uninformed rant.
 
steingar said:
Actually, most of this got stuff got put in with a President and Congress that got elected on the promise of less government. Sorry to spoil a good uninformed rant.
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Less government with more law enforcement / military / security (the other guys were alleged to be soft on crime and terror). IIRC.
 
steingar said:
Actually, most of this got stuff got put in with a President and Congress that got elected on the promise of less government. Sorry to spoil a good uninformed rant.
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I think it best to remember that, in matters such as these, it is the bureaucracy which perpetuates itself.

Much like Skynet - it becomes self aware and does what it must to survive.
 
SCCutler said:
I think it best to remember that, in matters such as these, it is the bureaucracy which perpetuates itself.

Much like Skynet - it becomes self aware and does what it must to survive.
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Wow! Years of rants summed up in a couple of sentences. Can I use this?

John
 
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