I'm getting a Tesla in the morning!!!

deonb said:
Very true that it's important. But the Model S with its conventional look is by far the most aerodynamic EV available (drag coefficient of 0.24).

The Cd for the Leaf is 0.32 and the BMW i3 is 0.29.

In comparison the BMW 328i drag coefficient is 0.29. So aerodynamics alone is not an excuse for BMW not using a standard 3-series body for their EV.
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Nope. The other issue is weight, hence the small size. Chuck the i3's batteries and an electric motor in a 328i and you will be sadly disappointed in the performance. Unless you build that 328i out of all exotic materials you will just be too heavy.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see what Tesla comes up with. They really don't want to cater to the nerdy EV folks. They want conquest sales from traditional gas powered buyers. Still... the budget and the consumer demands fro performance and functionality all have to be balanced.
 
At the recent Los Angeles Auto there were EVs from almost every manufacturer. SOME of them looked considerably different than gas powered cars, but lots of them were simply re-engined gas cars.

Seems the manufacturers are swinging both ways.
 
denverpilot said:
It's funny how some people think others don't have 80 mile round trip commutes with no charger at one end, daily.

.
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Given that a Tesla has 250-260 miles range, an 80 mile commute would not require a charger at work destination.

Perfect use for a Tesla.

Range is not much of a deterrent for most people.

And never going to a gas station is a big time saver for many.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If by "cause" you mean "fear that Tesla is going to eat their lunch" then you're right.

If by "cause" you mean "the government should be telling companies how their products can be sold" then I respectfully disagree.

So, what do you mean by cause?

This kind of reminds me of the movie industry fighting VCRs, the recording industry fighting the iTunes store, etc. There's a lot of history of shortsighted fears bringing companies down and a lot more where those fears led them to fight something that ultimately made them tons of money. I was thinking of that during the State of the Union speech the other night...
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Kent, you know I have a hard time disagreeing with you on much, but you are off base on this one. Consolation: you're hardly alone.

It is not as if auto dealer laws were just popped-out to target Tesla. Rather, they are intended to protect consumers from being left "in the lurch" if a manufacturer sells a car, then withdraws. It may be time to do away with these laws - it's not as if we have dozens of small manufacturers like once was the case - but to suggest these laws are somehow aimed at Tesla is just silly.

With the much greater access to information we have these days, some of the risks of having no local and committed dealers are perhaps lessened. Too, cars are orders of magnitude better.

But the way to effect the change is through legislation, not like Tesla's pitiful claim that they are being somehow targeted.
 
RalphInCA said:
At the recent Los Angeles Auto there were EVs from almost every manufacturer. SOME of them looked considerably different than gas powered cars, but lots of them were simply re-engined gas cars.

Seems the manufacturers are swinging both ways.
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Those are called compliance cars to those in the car business. They are manufacturers offerings that are compliant with regulations in the state of California. In California, the top six auto makers must make available to the public at least one fully electric powered option. You must make at least 1000 of these available per model year.

Most car manufacturers hate EVs, so they cobble together an electric version of one of their gas cars and build exactly 1000 of them. In general these cars suck. Their range is poor and their price is high. They also often suffer from a reduction in cabin space to make room for batteries. They usually don't sell well and that's just the way they like it. Some manufactures only offer their EVs as a lease and you can never buy it.

However, a few car makers (other than Tesla of course) take on the EV challenge and have committed to dedicated EV platforms. They are at this time GM, Nissan and Mitsubishi. There is always talk of more joining them. Car makers often roll out their EVs at auto shows so they can at least get some "green" PR for their investment. Trust me, most have no real interest in actually selling you one of these cars.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Given that a Tesla has 250-260 miles range, an 80 mile commute would not require a charger at work destination.

Perfect use for a Tesla.

Range is not much of a deterrent for most people.

And never going to a gas station is a big time saver for many.
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Fair enough. Let me know when I can get three of them for less than $30K and they can handle daily washboard roads and deep snow. LOL.
 
Dav8or said:
The charging infrastructure is what it is. Likely Bolts will be able to use the Tesla stations in the future, or the Nissan/BMW stations with an adaptor. GM may, or may not make this adaptor, but the aftermarket will, or Tesla/Nissan/BMW will to greater utilize their facilities.
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Bolts won't be able to use the Tesla Superchargers unless Tesla wants 'em to, and I don't see that happening soon. The Superchargers rely not only on Tesla's proprietary connector, they also rely on a software handshake with the car - Tesla originally charged several thousand dollars for access to the Supercharger network, so they can turn this on and off on a car-by-car basis - It's not just plug and play. I don't see it as ever being possible unless Tesla allows it.

The Nissan/BMW funded stations will have both SAE-CCS and CHaDeMO connectors, probably because the i3 uses SAE-CCS and the Leaf uses CHaDeMO. Teslas can use an adapter for CHaDeMO, I'm not sure if they've bothered making one for SAE-CCS since I think the i3 is the only car to use that so far. The Bolt will also likely use SAE-CCS so that adapter may come. But, as I said above, nobody is going to be able to use Tesla's network except Teslas.

I really don't see these as cross country machines anyhow. 200 miles isn't enough to do long road trips,
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Sure it is, if you get that 200 miles at highway speeds and there's the right DCFC infrastructure in place.

I'm actually kind of hoping that in another couple of years when my current leases are up I'll be able to swing a new Model 3 and a used Model S. Probably use the S for longer trips, assuming it does have more range, just because I'll use that extra "range" to go faster instead. :D For the most part, for any trip over 100 miles I'm going to use the airplane anyway.
 
SCCutler said:
It is not as if auto dealer laws were just popped-out to target Tesla. Rather, they are intended to protect consumers from being left "in the lurch" if a manufacturer sells a car, then withdraws. It may be time to do away with these laws - it's not as if we have dozens of small manufacturers like once was the case - but to suggest these laws are somehow aimed at Tesla is just silly.
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I never suggested those laws targeted Tesla. They've been around way longer than that...

But the way to effect the change is through legislation, not like Tesla's pitiful claim that they are being somehow targeted.
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... And I don't think Tesla has said as much either. However, the dealers that are defending these laws are most certainly doing so to keep Tesla out of their business, because Tesla isn't playing the dealership game. The dealers will have to compete with a business they can't join, so of course they're fighting it.
 
denverpilot said:
Fair enough. Let me know when I can get three of them for less than $30K and they can handle daily washboard roads and deep snow. LOL.
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I'm curious how a Tesla does in snow because of the way you drive them. They're mostly single-pedal control, with the brake pedal being used solely to put the pads on the rotors and thus waste energy. But, that means that when you let off the accelerator completely, they go into full regen. That isn't enough to stop the wheels in slippery conditions, but it is enough to break 'em loose unless Tesla has handled that in software.

On my Fusion Energi, if I'm in Drive it behaves pretty much like a normal car, but if I'm in Low it behaves like a Tesla (for the slowing-down part at least :goofy::sad:) and the other night on the way home from work on terrible roads, Low was breaking me loose. Worse yet, as I'm FWD that eliminated my steering control - I quickly shifted back to Drive!

Hopefully Tesla has already taken care of this in software. I'd imagine they have, since their market share in places like Norway is amazingly good. I also just saw a video on the Tesla group on Facebook of a pair of them crossing the arctic circle... And those roads did not look good at all!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'm curious how a Tesla does in snow because of the way you drive them. They're mostly single-pedal control, with the brake pedal being used solely to put the pads on the rotors and thus waste energy. But, that means that when you let off the accelerator completely, they go into full regen. That isn't enough to stop the wheels in slippery conditions, but it is enough to break 'em loose unless Tesla has handled that in software.



On my Fusion Energi, if I'm in Drive it behaves pretty much like a normal car, but if I'm in Low it behaves like a Tesla (for the slowing-down part at least :goofy::sad:) and the other night on the way home from work on terrible roads, Low was breaking me loose. Worse yet, as I'm FWD that eliminated my steering control - I quickly shifted back to Drive!



Hopefully Tesla has already taken care of this in software. I'd imagine they have, since their market share in places like Norway is amazingly good. I also just saw a video on the Tesla group on Facebook of a pair of them crossing the arctic circle... And those roads did not look good at all!
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The good news about the Tesla is new drivers of them probably expect them to behave differently. Drivers of the Ford probably expect old car behavior and aren't former driving instructors such as yourself who know how to think about mode changes in behavior done by software.

Software in cars will be no better at being "smart enough to handle ALL conditions" than it is in aircraft, and we've already seen crews kill whole plane loads of people via the "what the hell is it doing?" problem and relying too much on automation and not aeronautical knowledge, at least as a significant contributing factor. (AF 447)

That's a trained crew that is supposed to know the software and how it changes modes. In a car, most drivers don't have a clue what you're talking about when you say putting the car in low changed how the entire drivetrain functions. Nor do they care.

Interesting stuff.
 
denverpilot said:
The good news about the Tesla is new drivers of them probably expect them to behave differently. Drivers of the Ford probably expect old car behavior and aren't former driving instructors such as yourself who know how to think about mode changes in behavior done by software.
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Very true! LOL

That's one of the things that I think Ford did really well - If you didn't know what "Energi" meant, didn't notice the extra "fuel" door in the front, and didn't look to see the giant piece of trunk that went missing, you'd never know that this wasn't a plain old car.

That, plus the unlimited range, makes this a GREAT first EV. Unfortunately, to Ford it's a compliance car so instead of turning me on to Fords, it has actually turned me off despite how excellent of a car it is - They turned me on to EV driving more so than Ford, and they've shown that they're not particularly interested in the EV market so I'm looking elsewhere next time. Some friends just turned in their leased Focus Electric and went with an i3 as well.

Software in cars will be no better at being "smart enough to handle ALL conditions" than it is in aircraft, and we've already seen crews kill whole plane loads of people via the "what the hell is it doing?" problem
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I somewhat disagree. I think that there are a lot fewer situations that a car will have to deal with, and I think that the average pilot is much better trained (and much smarter) than the average driver. That tilts the scales a lot farther towards software when it comes to cars vs. planes.

The other thing that Tesla is doing right is that they're collecting a LOT of data from the cars they've manufactured. Then, they're using that data to make their software better. Since they're not making a completely autonomous car (yet) it doesn't matter if their software isn't perfect at this point. However, they're going to be miles ahead of the rest of the crowd when it comes time to make a fully self-driving car as they will have collected sensor data from literally millions of situations, and they'll know that their software has to handle all of those situations and they'll be able to simulate it. Pretty cool stuff, if you're a data geek like me!

That's a trained crew that is supposed to know the software and how it changes modes. In a car, most drivers don't have a clue what you're talking about when you say putting the car in low changed how the entire drivetrain functions. Nor do they care.

Interesting stuff.
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Yup... It's kind of cool to be able to geek out about cars, as a non-traditional-gearhead type. :) It'll be even cooler when we can apply it to airplanes - The electric and hybrid models of the Pipistrel Panthera they talked about in the latest AOPA Pilot are very interesting!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I somewhat disagree. I think that there are a lot fewer situations that a car will have to deal with, and I think that the average pilot is much better trained (and much smarter) than the average driver. That tilts the scales a lot farther towards software when it comes to cars vs. planes.
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News here tonight on the way home had an announcement that Ford was testing an autonomous car on snow packed roads here in CO this week and weekend, up in the mountains. How would you like to be the guy riding in that car as the safety dude? Heh.

"Oh crap... Here comes the ditch...!" LOL!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Bolts won't be able to use the Tesla Superchargers unless Tesla wants 'em to, and I don't see that happening soon. The Superchargers rely not only on Tesla's proprietary connector, they also rely on a software handshake with the car - Tesla originally charged several thousand dollars for access to the Supercharger network, so they can turn this on and off on a car-by-car basis - It's not just plug and play. I don't see it as ever being possible unless Tesla allows it.
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Of course. The Tesla charging stations are private property with private equipment and service. They will have to allow others in, or not. IMO, at some point, Tesla will need the cash. They are still spending it faster than they are making it.

I may buy a Bolt, or Model 3 in the near future, but there is no way I'm going to bother doing any long cross countries with either. I will just use my wife's Lexus as we do now.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Very true! LOL

That's one of the things that I think Ford did really well - If you didn't know what "Energi" meant, didn't notice the extra "fuel" door in the front, and didn't look to see the giant piece of trunk that went missing, you'd never know that this wasn't a plain old car.

That, plus the unlimited range, makes this a GREAT first EV.
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Just to be fair, the Chevy Volt is a great first EV too and it is the concept that Ford copied. It's also a great alternative and the 2016 Volt is a great upgrade over the original.
 
Dav8or said:
Why do you think EVs could never handle snow? :confused: You seem to think they will of course fail. It makes no sense. They can do what gas cars can, only usually better with the exception of recharge times.
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I never said that. Bring on the EV pickup trucks with some real ground clearance! ;)

And if you note, the testing being done is the tiny compact cars with little ground clearance on snow packed roads, not deep snow.

Obviously if I'm interested in their *autonomous driving* snow pack performance I'm not saying they won't work in snow.

The first Prii here were pretty funny in the first winter with their low rolling resistance tires, though. They spin out really well, all that weight centered and tiny wheelbases... Kinda looked fun to me. Not sure the soccer moms liked it too much. Everyone removed those tires and lost 5 MPG. ;)
 
Dav8or said:
Just to be fair, the Chevy Volt is a great first EV too and it is the concept that Ford copied. It's also a great alternative and the 2016 Volt is a great upgrade over the original.
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Overall, yes - And the Volt has a longer EV range than the Fusion Energi too, big bonus points for that.

However, I've heard that the Volt doesn't do preconditioning. That's about the best feature there is for an EV, and it seems everyone else does it but them. :dunno:

The Volt and Bolt are interesting, and I'll probably test drive them at some point, but the likelihood of a buy is very low for reasons previously stated - And, my last GM experience was terrible. I went to a dealer expecting to buy a Terrain, and we took it out on a test drive that was so awful we wrote GMC off for now. Very poorly designed vehicle IMO.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Overall, yes - And the Volt has a longer EV range than the Fusion Energi too, big bonus points for that.



However, I've heard that the Volt doesn't do preconditioning. That's about the best feature there is for an EV, and it seems everyone else does it but them. :dunno:



The Volt and Bolt are interesting, and I'll probably test drive them at some point, but the likelihood of a buy is very low for reasons previously stated - And, my last GM experience was terrible. I went to a dealer expecting to buy a Terrain, and we took it out on a test drive that was so awful we wrote GMC off for now. Very poorly designed vehicle IMO.
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Co-worker with a Volt lost almost all braking ability via a software glitch. Damned lucky it didn't kill him. Chevy claimed they replaced a "failed computer" but they couldn't be specific and the owner is a software dev so he did ask. He noticed software updates and behavior changes after the incident.
 
Update:

With 10 more shares yesterday @ $192.38, I'm now in for 40 total shares with an average basis of $219.97.

Right now underwater by about $1,350.

But this was always meant to be a long-term "flyer". Hope springs eternal and all that!
 
RalphInCA said:
That's what I have always done, but for some reason I'm not making any money. What am I doing wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You need to do it in large volumes. :wink2:
 
Dang you got me! Had so many questions to ask you :wink2:

But I am saving for the model 3 when that comes out. Hopefully will have saved enough.
 
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