I'M ABOUT TO BECOME A PILOT! Light Aircraft Questions...

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iGoHigh

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iGoHigh
I am so fed up with every single airliner in the world that I feel with proper management, I could indefinitely become the most successful requested airliner of all time by rising above their inconsiderate monopoly as that is what airlines are, a pathetic unappreciative monopoly who treat people like slaves... I hope they all bankrupt.

Anyway that will be a future venture of mine, now I am just looking to get my PPL and some info lol. I have been doing extensive research regarding PPL, Instrument training etc. I believe I have also familiarized myself well with all light aircraft available and have a good idea of what I am looking for. To be honest I already have a plane picked out ( Mooney M20R unless advised differently ).

So I figured out that the Columbia 300 was bought by Cessna which is called the Cessna 350 ( 400 is the Turbo version from what I understand ) and was recently renamed for marketing purposes, " Cessna Corvalis ".

I am also aware that the Cirrus SR22 is a viable option.

I have ultimately decided on the Mooney M20R from my research.

Now I do not know how the Cessna 350 compares to the M20R and SR22. In all reality I would like to install the Parachute and from what I understand BRS offers this as an option? My incentive in owning an aircraft is more or less making life easier when flying as I can not stand flying with airliners anymore.

Also I will be buying the plane prior to flight ( PPL / Instrument ) training.


Thanks for your time, nice to meet you all
 
iGoHigh said:
I am so fed up with every single airliner in the world that I feel with proper management, I could indefinitely become the most successful requested airliner of all time by rising above their inconsiderate monopoly as that is what airlines are, a pathetic unappreciative monopoly who treat people like slaves... I hope they all bankrupt.

Anyway that will be a future venture of mine, now I am just looking to get my PPL and some info lol. I have been doing extensive research regarding PPL, Instrument training etc. I believe I have also familiarized myself well with all light aircraft available and have a good idea of what I am looking for. To be honest I already have a plane picked out ( Mooney M20R unless advised differently ).

So I figured out that the Columbia 300 was bought by Cessna which is called the Cessna 350 ( 400 is the Turbo version from what I understand ) and was recently renamed for marketing purposes, " Cessna Corvalis ".

I am also aware that the Cirrus SR22 is a viable option.

I have ultimately decided on the Mooney M20R from my research.

Now I do not know how the Cessna 350 compares to the M20R and SR22. In all reality I would like to install the Parachute and from what I understand BRS offers this as an option? My incentive in owning an aircraft is more or less making life easier when flying as I can not stand flying with airliners anymore.

Also I will be buying the plane prior to flight ( PPL / Instrument ) training.


Thanks for your time, nice to meet you all
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Well, if you're serious and determined and have the cash to float out there to do it, that's not a bad plan. However, if I was using a plane to replace airlines (which is the purpose I use a personal plane for) traveling, I'd have a twin, if I was living or traveling N in the winter, I would have a De Iced twin. If I lived out west I'd want a High Performance or Turbod twin.

At this point I consider SVT (synthetic vision technology) a must have for single pilot instrument flight, it WILL save you one day and makes flying in the soup 1000% more comfortable, especially when traveling out west to any mountainous terrain.

If you are satisfied with a single engine plane though, I would get the Mooney R and put a glass SVT panel in it.
 
The M20R is probably a lot of airplane for a student to learn in. You need to find an instructor with some Mooney time under their belt.
 
iGoHigh said:
I am so fed up with every single airliner in the world that I feel with proper management, I could indefinitely become the most successful requested airliner of all time by rising above their inconsiderate monopoly as that is what airlines are, a pathetic unappreciative monopoly who treat people like slaves... I hope they all bankrupt.

Anyway that will be a future venture of mine, now I am just looking to get my PPL and some info lol. I have been doing extensive research regarding PPL, Instrument training etc. I believe I have also familiarized myself well with all light aircraft available and have a good idea of what I am looking for. To be honest I already have a plane picked out ( Mooney M20R unless advised differently ).

So I figured out that the Columbia 300 was bought by Cessna which is called the Cessna 350 ( 400 is the Turbo version from what I understand ) and was recently renamed for marketing purposes, " Cessna Corvalis ".

I am also aware that the Cirrus SR22 is a viable option.

I have ultimately decided on the Mooney M20R from my research.

Now I do not know how the Cessna 350 compares to the M20R and SR22. In all reality I would like to install the Parachute and from what I understand BRS offers this as an option? My incentive in owning an aircraft is more or less making life easier when flying as I can not stand flying with airliners anymore.

Also I will be buying the plane prior to flight ( PPL / Instrument ) training.


Thanks for your time, nice to meet you all
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Keep in mind that you will likely progress towards your PPL significantly faster in a simple airplane as is commonly used for training (e.g. Cessna 152 or 172, Piper Warrior, etc) and if you want an airplane for reliable and efficient transportation purposes a training aircraft will probably be insufficient. In addition, there's a very good chance that by the time you finish PPL training you'll possess a lot more knowledge WRT the benefits and perils of aircraft ownership as well as a better understanding of the capabilities and limitations of various aircraft models.

For those reasons it might be wise to postpone your aircraft purchase till then or at least consider something both used and more appropriate for getting your PPL in. That's not to say you can't train in a M20R or similar, but if you do you can expect that it could take twice as long to become ready for your checkride and soloing will be delayed considerably if for no other reason than insurance requirements.
 
MSPAviator said:
The M20R is probably a lot of airplane for a student to learn in. You need to find an instructor with some Mooney time under their belt.
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Most definitely, best thing to do is put one on salary for your first year and fly 100+ hrs with them and insure them as the pilot for the airplane. That way next year you'll have bottom dollar insurance, same for a twin. BTW, if I was flying family or other passengers frequently on long trips over 3 hrs, I would have a pressurized cabin class twin. Pressurization is important for pax comfort on long trips getting over the weather, passengers don't like sucking O2, and they like to have a lav, especially passengers of the female persuasion. A Cessna 421C after 1983 with the trailing link gear is best of breed.
You can have a pressurized single in a PA-46, but you need a really good PA-46 instructor. If you have the cash for a turbine engine, there are the PA-46s the TBM 700 & 850 and the queen of the TE planes, the Pilatus PC-12.

Buy your last plane first and hire a pro to fly with you your first year, that will be the most time and cost effective way of going about it. Trading up airplanes is expensive, and each upgrade is going to require another 25 hrs of dual checkout and 100hrs PIC (pilot in command) in that capability & class before getting the good insurance rates. It will also get you the capabilities you desire immediately.
It's definitely the harder way to learn, but like everything, efficiency has it's price, in this case you have to trade hard work, sweat and study for maximum efficiency in time and money.
 
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The M20R with deice is an excellent personal airliner. But as someone pointed out it will be a handful to learn in...not impossible, but much more to master all up front. Maybe buy a trainer first and get your pvt and instrument in it, then upgrade to the Mooney later.

I've got quite a bit of Mooney time and they are great traveling machines. The Ovation is a comfortable, fast ride! Feel free to pm me if you want more in depth info.
 
I knew a couple of people who learned to fly in their personal high performance singles (one had a Comanche, and another I forgot what). It must be understood, however, that it's expensive and that dispatch reliability is not like an airliner. Even if we put aside the ice (which Henning mentioned above), thunderstorms, and the like, an airline can swap a broken aiplane for a fixed one, and a typical private owner cannot. Getting stuck on vacation 5000 miles away from home is going to take some of the luster off the personal airpalne.
 
A twin is most definitely what I see myself in the future. As a lot of you pointed out and no surprise, the M20R is much too much plane for me at this moment, let alone a twin, lol I will hurt myself if I'm lucky at the least. For now I will have to be happy with a single engine. Not to mention from what I understand, is unless I have my instrument I can not even train on a twin. I am also very familiar of respecting all machinery in general, but to be specific I raced motocross when I was younger and I currently race a CBR1000 ( race bike ) for fun. I do not see myself being the type of person that feels just because I took a class and bought a plane that I am a pilot and will be safe. What I tell myself before getting on my bike, is that this is just practice for the next ride. I'm going to implement the same thought process with aviation.

Much appreciated comments, thank you. Any comparison between the M20R and Cessna 350?

Also if I have to get somewhere and the weather is bad in anyway I can always call one of our airliners with horrible customer service and eventually get there. In the end by the time the airliner takes off I might as well have drove. To be honest I do not want a plane only for traveling, but because I always wanted to fly, I actually want to be a proficient pilot. I will take pride in flying.
 
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gismo said:
For those reasons it might be wise to postpone your aircraft purchase till then or at least consider something both used and more appropriate for getting your PPL in. That's not to say you can't train in a M20R or similar, but if you do you can expect that it could take twice as long to become ready for your checkride and soloing will be delayed considerably if for no other reason than insurance requirements.
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This makes sense, but do you not think that all of the hours in a cessna 152/172 will be completely useless once stepping foot in a M20R or SR22? I would like a serious answer to that. Another reason for me wanting to buy the aircraft prior to schooling, is that all of the hours logged will ultimately be on the plane I believe I will be forced to reconcile with until I have the experience for a twin so that being said why not just get what I already know I will have to settle for?

I have a flight school instructor in the area who specializes in Mooney and charges $55 an hour. So price is ok, but most importantly from what he tells me is that he is a devoted Mooney fan with a lot of knowledge.
 
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iGoHigh said:
A twin is most definitely what I see myself in the future. As a lot of you pointed out and no surprise, the M20R is much too much plane for me at this moment, let alone a twin, lol I will hurt myself if I'm lucky at the least. For now I will have to be happy with a single engine. Not to mention from what I understand, is unless I have my instrument I can not even train on a twin. I am also very familiar of respecting all machinery in general, but to be specific I raced motocross when I was younger and I currently race a CBR1000 ( race bike ) for fun. I do not see myself being the type of person that feels just because I took a class and bought a plane that I am a pilot and will be safe. What I tell myself before getting on my bike, is that this is just practice for the next ride. I'm going to implement the same thought process with aviation.

Much appreciated comments, thank you. Any comparison between the M20R and Cessna 350?

Also if I have to get somewhere and the weather is bad in anyway I can always call one of our airliners with horrible customer service and eventually get there. In the end by the time the airliner takes off I might as well have drove. To be honest I do not want a plane only for traveling, but because I always wanted to fly, I actually want to be a proficient pilot. I will take pride in flying.
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You understand incorrectly, You can earn your initial PP in a twin, Danny Kaye did and he's an actor for God's sake. I bought a twin with 6Ohrs Total Time and and didn't get an instrument rating for a couple hundred more hours. There isn't anything about a twin that makes it impossible to learn in. The learning process may take longer, but you will reach the end of it faster and better trained in the aircraft you put your friends and family in when you're done.
 
This plan requires large amounts of money.
For the same money you could hire a local FBO to supply twin engine airplane and CFI on demand.
And you won't be having the annual surprise party for your bank account. (ask any plane owner)
Won't be paying for insurance.
Won't be paying hangar fees.
Won't be stuck in Podunk looking for a way home because the weather is beyond your capabilities.
Won't be dead in a corn field in Iowa because the weather WAS beyond your capability but you thought you would just try it.

The airlines exist because:
Most people cannot fly themselves.
Most airliners can fly when most other airplanes cannot.

While I would love to see another pilot born, you are wanting to use a small GA airplane as your personal airliner for 'on demand' travel.
In a lifetime of banging around in airplanes I have never seen this plan turn out well in the end.

denny-o
 
iGoHigh said:
This makes sense, but do you not think that all of the hours in a cessna 152/172 will be completely useless once stepping foot in a M20R or SR22?
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Absolutely not. Flying isn't about manipulating the controls since a monkey can be trained to do that. Flying is about decision making. Sure, we talk about so-and-so being a good stick but even a hack like me can fly safely if I make good decisions with respect to maintenance and weather (and fuel and terrain and my proficiency and etc).

The fundamentals of making good decisions are the same for nearly all small airplanes so you may as well learn the least expensive way possible.
 
iGoHigh said:
This makes sense, but do you not think that all of the hours in a cessna 152/172 will be completely useless once stepping foot in a M20R or SR22? I would like a serious answer to that.
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I had about 120 hours in a Cessna 152 and 30 hours in a Piper Arrow before I transitioned to a M20J. I still felt like the M20J was a lot of airplane to me, but I felt pretty comfortable landing it after about 5 hours of doing nothing but t/o & landing. The Mooney quickly accelerates past the cruise speed of a C152 on takeoff and cruise climbing at 500fpm will get you around 110kt. Close the cowl flaps and you'll get another +20kt, still climbing; which is about as fast as an Arrow in level flight. There is a pretty major trim change with every configuration change. The flaps don't have preselect and can accidently be brought all the way up if you aren't careful in releasing the switch. You have cowl flaps and EGTs to watch. On decsents you can find yourself having to slow from 190+kt. down to below 132kt to bring the gear down. Even with the gear down and full flap, it still feels more slippery than an Arrow. There is a fairly narrow airspeed window you have to hit on short final to make a good landing without a lot of float.

I wouldn't say it's a hard airplane to fly once you get used to it, but as a student there would be a lot of getting used to, I'm a pretty low time/low experience pilot myself.
 
Dr. O said:
This plan requires large amounts of money.
For the same money you could hire a local FBO to supply twin engine airplane and CFI on demand.
And you won't be having the annual surprise party for your bank account. (ask any plane owner)
Won't be paying for insurance.
Won't be paying hangar fees.
Won't be stuck in Podunk looking for a way home because the weather is beyond your capabilities.
Won't be dead in a corn field in Iowa because the weather WAS beyond your capability but you thought you would just try it.

The airlines exist because:
Most people cannot fly themselves.
Most airliners can fly when most other airplanes cannot.

While I would love to see another pilot born, you are wanting to use a small GA airplane as your personal airliner for 'on demand' travel.
In a lifetime of banging around in airplanes I have never seen this plan turn out well in the end.

denny-o
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I have seen it work out wonderfully, your first line is the key to the issue. If you want your own personal airliner, it's gonna cost a butt load of money and you may as well hire a pro pilot and operate a 2 pilot cockpit like an airline as well.

On demand all weather private air transportation is expensive, but a spare $70k a year will get it done.
 
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iGoHigh said:
This makes sense, but do you not think that all of the hours in a cessna 152/172 will be completely useless once stepping foot in a M20R or SR22?
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Definitely not...all airplanes fundamentally fly the same. What you learn in the 150 will just be refined when you step up to the Mooney.

You could start in the Mooney, but it would just take more hours to get to each milestone. But once there, you'd have a deeper set of skills.
 
Thank you all for all of your response. I can see that you all care about each other's safety and truly want the best for one another that is humbling, glad to be apart of this forum.

Denny-O, Henning as well as the rest of you are becoming a tremendous help in my venture towards becoming a pilot. I read an article that compared the safety between the single and twin. The twin is actually dangerous from what I read, if one of the engines fail it says that most pilots tend to increase power in the running engine causing a spiral twist... They also say even if you decrease the power in the running engine and lower the nose in a decent that it is still much more dangerous than single engine failure. That being said, what happens in a single engine failure usually?
 
Henning said:
I have seen it work out wonderfully, your first line is the key to the issue. If you want your own personal airliner, it's gonna cost a butt load of money and you may as well hire a pro pilot and operate a 2 pilot cockpit like an airline as well.

On demand all weather private air transportation is expensive, but a spare $70k a year will get it done.
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:rofl: Yes, money solves 99% of our issues... Money Money Money! That's all people want is money, but the 1% of issues that money can't solve are more important than all the money in the world and most people don't care.

LDJones said:
Definitely not...all airplanes fundamentally fly the same. What you learn in the 150 will just be refined when you step up to the Mooney.

You could start in the Mooney, but it would just take more hours to get to each milestone. But once there, you'd have a deeper set of skills.
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Ultimately I am looking for the deeper set of skills and I believe the transition will be possible, but I would feel more comfortable training on the plane I plan on flying for a few 2-3 years.
 
Why not at least rent a 172 until solo and then transition into your desired aircraft. It's not impossible but I can't imagine learning from day one in a Mooney. It's complex enough to be... well, complex and you don't really IMHO need/want complex while learning the basics of flight.
 
iGoHigh said:
Ultimately I am looking for the deeper set of skills and I believe the transition will be possible, but I would feel more comfortable training on the plane I plan on flying for a few 2-3 years.
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I'm still fairly new at this -- recently transitioned to my first high performance aircraft.

There are additional things to learn with new systems. The stuff you learn on trainers is (mostly) still applicable. You can learn how to fly in a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee. You MUST learn how to fly these when all the technology goes tango uniform. You can (and should) land a Cessna 172 with no electrical power whatsoever. You should learn about stalls and incipient spins in aircraft that won't kill you if you screw up.

With a simple trainer, you still have an information firehose to deal with. Add to that retractible gear (especially), deicing equipment, stormscopes, radar, fancy engine management systems, maybe turbines, maybe a second engine, several different navigation systems, complex user interfaces (G1000, various FMS), much less forgiving behavior, and so on, and you'll be severely overwhelmed. The retractible gear in particular means a high likelihood of a gear-up landing or damaged gear due to a hard landing pre-solo or around solo. You can train in a Bonanza or Pilatus, but you can't be 10 knots off on final and flaring 50 feet up like every student does at first if you want the aircraft to keep working.

In a 172 (or Cherokee), you can descend at any engine setting (including idle), you don't have cowl flaps, prop pitch control, or retractible gear. Old ones don't have the excessive technology problem, so you can learn how to fly the plane rather than spend all your time on the avionics.

And think about this -- most aircraft use for primary training get the CRAP beaten out of them. You first few dozen landings will be terrible. They always are.

Also, what killed AF442? A basic aerodynamic stall, and the "pilot flying"'s inability to figure that out. Like we learned about 10 hours into primary training. That was an advanced airliner, but the problem is learned about in every pilot's primary training, regardless of the aircraft.

Money appears not to be a problem. Great! Rent a 172 or some other trainer at least until solo (and preferably until your checkride) and get some transition training afterward, where you can focus on what's new for the aircraft you want.

I think you're proposing to run marathons before you've learned to crawl. It's not impossible, but it's a lot harder and much more risky than doing it in steps.
 
Well I have not ruled out renting for awhile and from the looks of it that is what it seems like is strongly recommend. How about if I feel that I wont really have a problem learning the EMS, landing gear, G1000 and so on would you still recommend a Cessna 152/172?

I honestly feel I could jump in a Cessna 152/172 and learn how to fly it in 1 day. It looks pretty easy from the youtube videos I watch, maybe people tend to overwhelm themselves, but if you all feel that this is truly the wrong route then I will jump in one of those Cessnas and get my PPL, but I do not see myself ever flying a cessna 152/172. I'm sure by then I will have a lot more knowledge choosing the Cessna route, but I will not even ever want to fly in one of those. They look cheap and a waste of time to me, granted the fundamentals, but what are fundamentals in a Cessna going to help on a M20R is what I am trying to understand.
 
I rented a 172 until solo, I then purchased a 152 to finish and do my check ride. After I got my license, I sold the 152 in 2 days and bought a retract airplane, a Beech Sierra. This sequence of events worked out very well for me.

Also, the pilot is the most dangerous part of flying, everything you can do to take yourself out of the accident chain helps: http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/sop:hazardous-attitudes
 
iGoHigh said:
Well I have not ruled out renting for awhile and from the looks of it that is what it seems like is strongly recommend. How about if I feel that I wont really have a problem learning the EMS, landing gear, G1000 and so on would you still recommend a Cessna 152/172?

I honestly feel I could jump in a Cessna 152/172 and learn how to fly it in 1 day. It looks pretty easy from the youtube videos I watch, maybe people tend to overwhelm themselves, but if you all feel that this is truly the wrong route then I will jump in one of those Cessnas and get my PPL, but I do not see myself ever flying a cessna 152/172. I'm sure by then I will have a lot more knowledge choosing the Cessna route, but I will not even ever want to fly in one of those. They look cheap and a waste of time to me, granted the fundamentals, but what are fundamentals in a Cessna going to help on a M20R is what I am trying to understand.
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A lot of people go in to flight training not fully understanding their mission requirements. What you THINK you need and what you end up flying after you've gained some experience may be different. A Mooney isn't going to replace an airliner. Owner flown GA planes fill the gap between too far to comfortably drive and a several State flight on Southwest.

Not only will you develop a better skill set as a pilot flying different types of planes, you may decide later that the 172 you are currently poo-pooing is ideal for short 100 NM flights as its relatively economical to own, rugged, and fairly bullet proof.

My first airplane was a Turbo Arrow. I got it because I wanted to fly long distances, over the Sierras, and to be able to make those 16,000 foot IFR MEA's (minimum enroute altitudes). Truth? I'm not going to be at 16,000 feet in the clouds anyway because of ice, and the cost of maintenance on a Turbo Arrow is high. I find most of my flights are by myself, under 200 NM over flat land or flat water. A normally aspirated Arrow works fine. Hell, a 172 works fine for that.

Buying a plane, especially a newer Mooney or Columbia or the like is expensive, and you're going to eat a lot of unrecoverable depreciation if you turn around and sell it. Get your PPL under your belt first, then decide. Flight basics are flight basics, whether you fly a Cessna or a Mooney. You will be a better pilot if you start with a less complex plane and move in to a more complex plane after you have developed the basic skills.
 
iGoHigh said:
I honestly feel I could jump in a Cessna 152/172 and learn how to fly it in 1 day. It looks pretty easy from the youtube videos I watch, maybe people tend to overwhelm themselves, but if you all feel that this is truly the wrong route then I will jump in one of those Cessnas and get my PPL, but I do not see myself ever flying a cessna 152/172. I'm sure by then I will have a lot more knowledge choosing the Cessna route, but I will not even ever want to fly in one of those. They look cheap and a waste of time to me, granted the fundamentals, but what are fundamentals in a Cessna going to help on a M20R is what I am trying to understand.
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I think this is honestly a good point. I've flown a 172 for over 100 hours now, and it is a straight forward airplane to learn. It is very simple to learn how to fly but here is the thing to keep in mind, flying is not just about reading the airspeed indicator and manipulating the control surfaces, it's about much more. The benefit to the 172 in your case is you won't, as easily get behind the plane. When learning to fly, you have a lot to learn and if your plane is moving very fast, it will be easy to be overwhelmed. Once you get overwhelmed you could actually slow your learning down ad that's no good. Here's what I mean- a typical takeoff in a 172 involves the following steps, full power, apply pressure to the right rudder, watch the engine gauges to check they are in the green and then rotate at the correct airspeed, then climb out at the corrct airspeed. Nothing too hard about that- however, it takes hours to do that correctly in a simple plane like a 172. In the Mooney, you'd be doing all the same things but you'll throw in more steps like gear up, flaps up and things like that. These steps you are adding are likely to get in the way of progress. The fundamentals of flying are the same in either airplane but how quickly you learn them probably will be impacted by the plane you choose to learn in.
 
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iGoHigh said:
:rofl: Yes, money solves 99% of our issues... Money Money Money! That's all people want is money, but the 1% of issues that money can't solve are more important than all the money in the world and most people don't care.

Ultimately I am looking for the deeper set of skills and I believe the transition will be possible, but I would feel more comfortable training on the plane I plan on flying for a few 2-3 years.
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Yep, there is nothing cheap about flying and everybody wants your money. Our world has come to the point where the majority opinion is that the accumulation of wealth is the meaning of life. The nice thing about that is it means you can buy other people's time which is in fact priceless.

Thing is, you can spend all the money you want on aviation, and you will still have to work every bit as hard and spend the same time to learn.

The advantage money gives you is efficiency in time getting to full ability.
 
iGoHigh said:
I honestly feel I could jump in a Cessna 152/172 and learn how to fly it in 1 day.
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Wow.

There's a reason that there's a minimum number of hours required, and a reason that the 20% who DO become pilots generally take more than that minimum.

My first suggestion is to read up on "hazardous attitudes" since your postings seem to indicate several.
 
Regardless of ability to learn or information transfer, the single most important point here is that an Mooney R probably can't take the beating that a student pilot will give it.
One bad landing that a 172 will shrug off, will put an M20R in the shop for expensive repairs.

The analogy is like learning to drive in a manual Lamborghini. Can it be done? Yes. But one curb check (that a Chevy Malibu wouldn't notice) will require replacing expensive parts.
Plus, the challenge of learning in a high-performance sports car (with bad turning circle, clutch like a tractor, limited visibility, too many controls, etc) actually limits the ability to learn the fundamentals of driving.

Can it be done? Sure! How much to you want to spend? Is it the best way to do it? Probably not. Start with a trainer that allows you to learn the envelope and margins in a forgiving airframe, one that allows you focus on flying the wing and learning the basics.
Then step up and learn the systems and complexities while you aren't having to divide attention and learn the fundamentals at the same time.
 
It sounds to me like you have lots of money to spare, and hopefully can put away some of your bravado. Everyone here has good advice for you, and really wants you to succeed. Some of this is selfishness, we all want new pilots to join the group, but do not want to see accident reports. Learning to fly is a process much like learning to walk. What you want to do is go from the stage of a baby laying in a crib unable to even sit up to running minimarathons by the time you are five. There are some who can pull that off, but not many. For the rest of us mortals, we have to go through the process of learning, and to do this correctly this takes time. There is a reason someone earlier brought up the fact that 80% of those who start pilot training do not finish and the majority of the 20% that eventually gets their PPL take more than 40 hours. Furthermore, once you get your PPL there is more training that is needed to do what you want to do, minimally getting your IFR, and even on top of that to be a good pilot you need to fly regularly, and more so if you want to stay proficient in IFR conditions. Flying is a hobby that literally can take over your life.

If I read correctly what your purpose in flying is, to be able to get from point A to point B without using the airlines, then your may be better served chartering a plane, or using ground transportation. If your goal is to become a pilot and fly for fun and business, then doing it the proven way, strarting off in a trainer and progressing like most of us, is probably the best way. Remember pretty much all those astronauts, and fighter jocks started flying in single engine trainers, too.
 
iGoHigh said:
Well I have not ruled out renting for awhile and from the looks of it that is what it seems like is strongly recommend. How about if I feel that I wont really have a problem learning the EMS, landing gear, G1000 and so on would you still recommend a Cessna 152/172?

I honestly feel I could jump in a Cessna 152/172 and learn how to fly it in 1 day. It looks pretty easy from the youtube videos I watch, maybe people tend to overwhelm themselves, but if you all feel that this is truly the wrong route then I will jump in one of those Cessnas and get my PPL, but I do not see myself ever flying a cessna 152/172. I'm sure by then I will have a lot more knowledge choosing the Cessna route, but I will not even ever want to fly in one of those. They look cheap and a waste of time to me, granted the fundamentals, but what are fundamentals in a Cessna going to help on a M20R is what I am trying to understand.
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A reasonably capable person can be trained to fly land a C172 in as little as 3-5 hours of training focused solely on that task but there's so much more to becoming a pilot than that and NOBODY can pick up the minimum set of required skills in a day or even a week. Besides I wouldn't want to fly with someone who's barely managed to acquire the minimum skillset and I doubt you'd want to either. And the PPL is only the first step towards becoming capable of operating an aircraft as a practical means of transportation. With a specially arranged program of instruction and practice you might manage to get there in as little as 200-300 hrs but it's more likely to take at least twice that.

I really don't want to discourage you in your quest to become a pilot but I think you should be a bit more realistic about it.
 
iGoHigh said:
Well I have not ruled out renting for awhile and from the looks of it that is what it seems like is strongly recommend. How about if I feel that I wont really have a problem learning the EMS, landing gear, G1000 and so on would you still recommend a Cessna 152/172?
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An EMS in a 152?

The general concensus, unless you're about to enlist in military training, is to
1. Learn the fundamentals
2. Learn the fundaments very well
3. Then learn something else

I honestly feel I could jump in a Cessna 152/172 and learn how to fly it in 1 day. It looks pretty easy from the youtube videos I watch,
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Remember me in your will

maybe people tend to overwhelm themselves, but if you all feel that this is truly the wrong route then I will jump in one of those Cessnas and get my PPL, but I do not see myself ever flying a cessna 152/172. I'm sure by then I will have a lot more knowledge choosing the Cessna route, but I will not even ever want to fly in one of those. They look cheap and a waste of time to me,
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$250,000 for a new 172 is cheap? I repeat - remember me in your will
granted the fundamentals, but what are fundamentals in a Cessna going to help on a M20R is what I am trying to understand.
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Out of curiousity - what do you do for a living? How long did it take you to become reasonably competent?
 
Henning, I think 70K is on the light side for what he envisions doing (shrug) but it is his money.
Our local industrialist made the same decision about 7 years ago (tempus fugit, so does memory).
However he did it right. He got trained in a Skyhawk, using the CFI/FBO as his second crew member on business flights while learning to fly.
Then rented the plane heavily for about three years, often having the CFI/FBO fly with him into sketchy weather.
Then he bought a Skylane and flew the wheel pants off it for about 2 years, or so. Then he moved into a new Corvalis and put a thousand hours or so on that in roughly a year and a half.
He just took factory delivery a week ago on a spanking new Meridian and plans to put a thousand hours on that.
His familiarization flight in the Meridian, with an instructor, was to fly the family to Florida for a vacation over Christmas and New year. He and the instructor will fly off the hours the insurance company wants while down there, and when he gets back he is free to fly the plane.
After a thousand hours in that he intends to move into a turbine.
He is one of the few "yuppie" types I have seen over the decades that I feel has his head screwed on right and will do fine.
 
OK, slip of the fingers.
Substitute Mirage in the above post.
Meridian is a thousand hours form now.
 
Dr. O said:
Henning, I think 70K is on the light side for what he envisions doing (shrug) but it is his money.
Our local industrialist made the same decision about 7 years ago (tempus fugit, so does memory).
However he did it right. He got trained in a Skyhawk, using the CFI/FBO as his second crew member on business flights while learning to fly.
Then rented the plane heavily for about three years, often having the CFI/FBO fly with him into sketchy weather.
Then he bought a Skylane and flew the wheel pants off it for about 2 years, or so. Then he moved into a new Corvalis and put a thousand hours or so on that in roughly a year and a half.
He just took factory delivery a week ago on a spanking new Meridian and plans to put a thousand hours on that.
His familiarization flight in the Meridian, with an instructor, was to fly the family to Florida for a vacation over Christmas and New year. He and the instructor will fly off the hours the insurance company wants while down there, and when he gets back he is free to fly the plane.
After a thousand hours in that he intends to move into a turbine.
He is one of the few "yuppie" types I have seen over the decades that I feel has his head screwed on right and will do fine.
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He did it one way, the cheap this quarter way that takes lower concentration of effort, it works, but it's a decade before he gets to full capability. The lowest cost, fastest way to get to full capability is buy your last plane first and hire a pro to fly with you until you're up to speed. That length of time will largely be determined by effort, however he is under no press because he has a pro with him. Just the costs involved in 'trading up' planes 4 times will buy another plane.
 
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iGoHigh said:
Well I have not ruled out renting for awhile and from the looks of it that is what it seems like is strongly recommend. How about if I feel that I wont really have a problem learning the EMS, landing gear, G1000 and so on would you still recommend a Cessna 152/172?

I honestly feel I could jump in a Cessna 152/172 and learn how to fly it in 1 day. It looks pretty easy from the youtube videos I watch, maybe people tend to overwhelm themselves, but if you all feel that this is truly the wrong route then I will jump in one of those Cessnas and get my PPL, but I do not see myself ever flying a cessna 152/172. I'm sure by then I will have a lot more knowledge choosing the Cessna route, but I will not even ever want to fly in one of those. They look cheap and a waste of time to me, granted the fundamentals, but what are fundamentals in a Cessna going to help on a M20R is what I am trying to understand.
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Probably the first thing you'll learn is that you aren't nearly as good as you think you are. There is a whole lot of overconfidence going on. No, it isn't that easy.
 
iGoHigh said:
This makes sense, but do you not think that all of the hours in a cessna 152/172 will be completely useless once stepping foot in a M20R or SR22? I would like a serious answer to that.
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Worthless? No. Not at all.

Learning to fly is learning to fly. Takeoff, landing, flying straight and level, navigation, etc. Pretty much a basic skill set.

Would time spent learning to drive a Chevy be worthless when you buy a Lexus?

FWIW, my old man learned to fly in a Navion... It's your money.
 
iGoHigh said:
I honestly feel I could jump in a Cessna 152/172 and learn how to fly it in 1 day.
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I honestly feel I would be effing impressed if you could get your skills up to PTS standards in one day.

Being able to hit the ground without damage most of the time could be done in a day.

It looks pretty easy from the youtube videos I watch, maybe people tend to overwhelm themselves, but if you all feel that this is truly the wrong route then I will jump in one of those Cessnas and get my PPL, but I do not see myself ever flying a cessna 152/172. I'm sure by then I will have a lot more knowledge choosing the Cessna route, but I will not even ever want to fly in one of those. They look cheap and a waste of time to me, granted the fundamentals, but what are fundamentals in a Cessna going to help on a M20R is what I am trying to understand.
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The basic fundamentals are learning to takeoff, land, straight and level, coordinate turns, land, land, land, navigate, weight and balance, etc. Pretty much everything you would learn in the Cessna is something you would need to know /learn in a Mooney except for how to adjust the seat - that is different. Time spent learning to adjust the seat in the Cessna would be wasted.

But, if you want to learn in a Mooney, learn in a Mooney. It's your money. And there ain't nothing special about flying a Mooney compared to a POS Cessna other than cost and complexity. It's just going to take more time because you will be dicking around with the prop, gear, etc. and finding yourself behind airplane when you are trying to to learn basic things like a proper landing. It ain't rocket science, you just need to learn to do it. Just like riding a unicycle - it's easy once you learn how. Looks pretty easy on youtube also.

But, why waste your time speculating? Rent an airplane and an instructor and find out first hand. It's only money.

Fly whatever you want. If you can learn in one, you can learn in the other.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend a 152/172 for the first flight training. Something like a Citabria (or similar) would be a better aircraft for the basic stick and rudder skills. When I give a ride to someone who learned in a 150/172 they seem to have a lot of problems just keeping my stupid little LSA actually on the runway - 'splain me that...

But if you have a thing for a Mooney, buy the Mooney.
 
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iGoHigh said:
I honestly feel I could jump in a Cessna 152/172 and learn how to fly it in 1 day.
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I think you should start your training in a rental while deciding on what plane to purchase.

Flight training was a very humbling experience for me. I had flow in small planes before and assumed that I could easily learn to fly. Not that learning to fly was hard, but it was not as natural as I thought it would be. Put me on ant piece of construction equipment and in 30 min I will be proficient at running it, a few hours later and I will running it Like a pro.

I transitioned from a Cherokee 140 to a 182 during my private training. The 182 is a simple plane to fly, the difference between the two seemed likes lot at the time.

I think you can learn in whatever plane you want. There are good arguments for starting simple and for training in what you are going to fly. My plan is to build some time in he 182 and then move up to a single retract and then to a twin.

I think a 182, Cherokee 235 might be a great plane to start with. One thing I can guarantee you is that after you have ten hours under your belt, you will be in a much better position to decide what plane to buy.

Good Luck!
 
Learning to fly a plane and learning to be a pilot are two very different things. Pilots can deal with situations that arise because they have the experience to think rationally through situations that arise. People who just fly planes get themselves (and often their families) into a lot of trouble in the same situations.

I'd ask if you're looking to fly a plane or become a pilot. Either one is ok, but if it's the former, please leave your family on the ground.
 
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