ILS Unusable

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by NealRomeoGolf, Aug 20, 2020.

  1. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Pattern Altitude

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    What does this note mean exactly “ILS unusable” on the ILS Rwy 12 to KBFF? Does that mean at FERPO the guidance of the ILS is not usable? At that point you have visual or you go missed?


    1EEE5D95-BF5F-4201-BC2B-4D4092B2532C.jpeg
     
  2. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    Interesting question. Some quick math shows you would get to DA before that fix and would have to be visual or go missed by then anyway, unless you're way above the glideslope.
     
  3. Boone

    Boone Ejection Handle Pulled

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    My guess is it’s a heads up not to react to needle movement after you’ve transitioned to a visual after FERPO. Which could potentially lead to a long or hard landing.
     
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  4. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Pattern Altitude

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    I figured this would be moot because it is only 0.3 nm from the threshold. Plus that is the missed approach point anyway, right?
     
  5. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    True. The 121 carrier I work for trained us to follow the ILS in low visibility basically until it was time to flare (and this is for Cat I, we do not have Cat II authorization).
     
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  6. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    MAP on an ILS is DA.

    edit: DA on the glideslope.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
  7. Boone

    Boone Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I keep it in my scan usually until the 50’ call, so if there was a big deviation it would get my notice. In that case I’d appreciate that note.
     
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  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Maybe they are saying you shouldn’t be using the ‘needles’ to continue below DA to 100 feet above touchdown zone elevation as provided for in FAR 91.175 (c) (3) (i)
     
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  9. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Agghhh!!! No it is not. DA ‘establishes’ the MAP. It is a ‘point,’ a geographic point. It is where the Glideslope, at DA, is. If you must execute a Missed Approach ‘early’ for some reason, say ATC says execute missed approach, or you have some problem with the plane that you can’t land, or maybe you’re just way behind and the needles are going nuts, to say you must continuing descending to DA before ‘missing’ is absurd.
     
  10. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    First, yes, I know it is on the glideslope. That wasn't the point. Read the post I was replying to and don't take my comment out of context. I wrote what I did because OP thought FERPO was the MAP on the ILS.

    I didn't say that. I didn't say anything close to that. And I didn't imply that, nor can I figure out why you think I did.

    Going missed early is a completely different issue and it's not even related to what we were talking about. It's also not even related to your own point about the ILS MAP being not "DA" but "DA on the glideslope".

    What a strange response.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
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  11. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    It didn't pass flight inspection inside the LOC MAP. (FERPO.)
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So basically, the note, "ILS unusable from FERPO" means the ILS is unusable from FERPO. Imagine that! :D
     
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  13. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Pattern Altitude

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    As a lawyer, I am surprised you would take such wording at face value. ;)
     
  14. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    And since it said ILS, neither the LOC or GS is to be trusted beyond FERPO.
     
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  15. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Isn't the ILS equipment usually at the other end of the runway? I notice there is an altitude difference between the runway ends. Possibly there is a crown in the runway or other obstruction that makes the signal unreliable?
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Actually, I have found that non-lawyers try to find hidden meanings in simple sentences far more than lawyers :D
     
  17. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Pattern Altitude

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    It's just PTSD from having lawyers for friends. Ha!

    I am friends with a local judge here and he likes to twist every sentence uttered.....mostly just to annoy people.
     
  18. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    For that purpose, sure :D

    OTOH, I'm more into responses like Mad Magazine's old "Snappy Answers..." feature. Of course, most of the time I end up being the butt of somehting like, Is this the train to Altoona".
     
  19. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The localizer for a front course signal is at the far end of the runway. The Glide Slope is usually just off to the side about 1000' down.
     
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  20. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    Which here seems to be FERPO anyway

    Hence the 1.8 DME.

    As far as reliability, there are lots of reasons. If you ever fly the ILS into KBUR, you'll see just how quickly things can get unreliable.
     
  21. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    No it isn't.
     
  22. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    “MAP on an ILS is DA” is like finger nails screeching on a chalkboard to me. My response was directly to your post #6. @Boone ’s post #3 was spot on about what the note is about and I think your post #5 continued the point very well. Please don’t take it personally that I went off on my rant replying to you. I would have done it to any ‘MAP on an ILS is DA’ post regardless of what original post started the thread. I could’ve done it better. My lesson learned, https://www.dailyedge.ie/drunk-text-prevention-993788-Jul2013/
     
  23. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    Good point, it would be slightly farther out
     
  24. aterpster

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    Because the note is regulatory, he has no choice. o_O
     
  25. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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  26. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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  27. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Lol. There it is, duh. I went straight to looking for where the glideslope intersected the runway.
     
  28. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    He was asking about the location of DA in relation to the localizer MAP.
     
  29. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    1.83 is the location of the LOC MAP.

    Funny, it says "MAP: ILS: DA". You better write to the FAA and complain they don't know where their own MAP is.
     
  30. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yup. Saw that.
     
  31. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    upload_2020-8-21_15-5-8.png
     
  32. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    KBUR is an exception on the LOC antenna location. Don’t know whether there are others.
     
  33. pburger

    pburger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    In the unlikely event you find yourself in an emergency situation, with low fuel and the area is socked in, you wouldn't want to pick this ILS to fly to the ground.
     
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  34. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Just calling @N1120A 's attention to this in case you aren't following this thread anymore. Reference your post #20. Don't know if you knew the reason or not.
     
  35. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Where is it at KBUR? It's hard to see in the Google shot.
     
  36. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    Interesting. That totally explains why it gets so unreliable about a mile out.

    Never knew this, but zoom in. It is at the approach end of Runway 8

    [​IMG]
     
  37. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I don't think it's showing in that pic. Pretty sure it is across the street. The North/South running street at the left of the photo is Vineland Ave. About 600 feet to the other side.
     
  38. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    You can pretty easily see the LOC antenna there.
     
  39. aterpster

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    LOC antenna array:

    BUR LOC array.jpg
     
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  40. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    The red and white thing is a blast fence. The things right at the threshold I’m pretty sure are the threshold lights.